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Going Clear: HBO vs Scientology

Started by Hank Venture, February 11, 2015, 09:06:12 AM

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PAGATRON

Will Smith, I thought he was undecided? I know his wife Jada is into it.

An tSaoi

Quote from: Steven on March 30, 2015, 10:10:00 PM
and inform on themselves and each other via 'auditing' (ala Catholicism - blackmail yourself and others through confessionals)

What are you on about? Confession is (or at least can be) anonymous, the information you give is privileged, the session is not recorded in any way, and the priest doesn't threaten to reveal your sins if you're thinking of leaving the church. Catholics don't blackmail themselves and others through confessionals. It bears no resemblance to auditing. The comparison doesn't hold at all.[nb]Not to defend the Catholic Church or anything.[/nb]

Quote from: Shameless Custard on March 31, 2015, 08:34:57 AM
Was there much in regards to Beck? Or Will Smith?

Not that I recall. They didn't even mention Katie Holmes or Leah Remini. Although it was a nicely made doc, and it was good to hear some of the anecdotes, you have to wonder what kind of stuff they were going to include before the lawyers went over it.

Noodle Lizard

As far as I know, Katie Holmes, Will Smith, Jada Pinkett Smith, Beck have never officially been a part of the church.  So that's probably why.  Being married to a scientologist doesn't make you one - it's more like freemasonry than any sort of traditional religion.

Hank Venture

Beck is a scientologist, born into it. Same with his wife, twin sister of Giovani Ribisi, both second generation scientologists.

Tiny Poster

The Smith family aren't Scientologists, though they have flirted with them. There's no way the cult wouldn't seize upon the world's biggest movie star and his media-friendly family as prime public figures - especially as they haven't had any young celeb converts for a couple of decades.

Steven

Quote from: An tSaoi on March 31, 2015, 02:58:52 PM
What are you on about? Confession is (or at least can be) anonymous, the information you give is privileged, the session is not recorded in any way, and the priest doesn't threaten to reveal your sins if you're thinking of leaving the church. Catholics don't blackmail themselves and others through confessionals. It bears no resemblance to auditing. The comparison doesn't hold at all.

Ok, the murdering fascistic religio-military organisation that has controlled the world for over 2000 years don't do anything with that information at all, my mistake.



Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Hank Venture on March 31, 2015, 07:14:10 PM
Beck is a scientologist, born into it. Same with his wife, twin sister of Giovani Ribisi, both second generation scientologists.

Yeah I was wrong about Beck, but the others aren't (i.e. Will Smith etc.) and Beck's a pretty airy one himself, so there's not much use spending time on them.  I know Neil Gaiman was also born into a scientologist family, but remains pretty quiet about it.

Travolta and Cruise are pretty outspoken scientologists, used most prominently by the church, and both with some rather shady associated stories.

Dropshadow

The documentary is a fairly good, two-hour watch. To be honest it's set out very similarly to all the other scientology films you've seen. The Travolta sequence suggests that he's being threatened in some way to ensure his continuing loyalty. A couple of the survivor interviewees said they felt sorry for him; some admitted that they participated in these threats. Tom Cruise's section is the most interesting. As someone mentioned before, there was a time when he appeared to be "slipping" so the cult went overboard in enticing him back (promotion, material bribes, etc) and even pimped him a nice little girlfriend post-Nicole. Unfortunately she only lasted a month or so as she was removed from his presence when she didn't pay enough attention to the sinister Miscavige when he visited them one day. Some interesting stuff about a "prison" in the scientology HQ in which those who misbehave (by not doing what they're told/thinking that it's all a bit naff) get beaten up. Worth looking into. The film, not scientology.

Custard

Just read that Elisabeth Moss, Juliette Lewis, Kirstie Allie, and Vivian Kubrick are all listed as current scientologlists

Blimey

Tiny Poster

I think Moss and Lewis were born into it (could be wrong on the latter - isn't she one of the My Name Is Earl crowd? Which sort of espouses a Scientology philosophy).

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Tiny Poster on April 01, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
I think Moss and Lewis were born into it (could be wrong on the latter - isn't she one of the My Name Is Earl crowd? Which sort of espouses a Scientology philosophy).

Juliette's father, the prolific actor, Geoffrey Lewis is a Scientologist - and IIRC, he was one of the first 'celebs' to be one. Pretty sure her brother is one as well.

An tSaoi

Quote from: Steven on March 31, 2015, 07:31:50 PM
Ok, the murdering fascistic religio-military organisation that has controlled the world for over 2000 years don't do anything with that information at all, my mistake.

Who pissed in your cornflakes you passive aggressive twit? I've had Confession and it's sod all like auditing. If you go in the booth - instead of the newfangled open way - the priest doesn't even know who he's talking to. Hardly comparable to keeping a comprehensive binder and video recordings of everything you've ever said.

Yes, child abuse and fascism and that stuff, but your characterisation that particular sacrament was way off and the link to Scientology is tenuous. They didn't threaten to reveal my sins when I stopped going to mass.

Spoiler alert
Also you smell of poo :P
[close]

Tiny Poster

Yes, there's an incredible amount of extremely justified shit you can throw at the Catholic church, even around the whole notion of the Confessional itself, but the actual "sins" confessed are kept confidential (unless it's a murder or child abuse or such, and even then I expect that depends on the who's taking the confession).

Tiny Poster

Quote from: Ignatius_S on April 01, 2015, 04:10:42 PM
Juliette's father, the prolific actor, Geoffrey Lewis is a Scientologist - and IIRC, he was one of the first 'celebs' to be one. Pretty sure her brother is one as well.


Ah yes. And she is one of the Earl lot too.

Steven

Quote from: An tSaoi on April 01, 2015, 04:45:14 PM
Who pissed in your cornflakes you passive aggressive twit? I've had Confession and it's sod all like auditing. If you go in the booth - instead of the newfangled open way - the priest doesn't even know who he's talking to. Hardly comparable to keeping a comprehensive binder and video recordings of everything you've ever said.

I didn't mean the actual process of auditing, I was talking about as an information gathering technique - auditing is meant to be a cleansing process through revealing personal information, exactly the same as Catholic confession. If you look at most espionage based organisations very little is ever written down and is passed along verbally, they obviously have no authority to absolve sin just like every other authority they've claimed to have through their double millennial tour of control and murder. I'm talking about historically this is a system they've abused to gather information and feed up their hierarchic chain, and I don't mean some poor peon revealing his wanking habits, they have indulged the disclosures of the Kings, Queens and heads of Europe throughout history and have maintained control of countries through their positioning between these sovereigns. The Vatican is all about controlling information, in fact going in to Confession voluntarily is a modern day luxury..

And let's not forget the disgusting ways they have controlled information in the past, persecuting and burning alive scientists like Giordano Bruno for making observations, William Tyndale and Jan Huss for even trying to translate the Bible for the common man, not to mention murdering millions for having alternative religious ideas or the nerve to question their self-appointed authority. To imagine they haven't historically used confession as a way to gether information is incredibly, incredibly naive.

Spoiler alert
You Daft Punk!
[close]

NoSleep

And yet you haven't mentioned a single particular case where this may have happened. Perhaps it is you who has the imagination?

Steven

Quote from: NoSleep on April 01, 2015, 06:16:32 PM
And yet you haven't mentioned a single particular case where this may have happened. Perhaps it is you who has the imagination?

You know the thing about espionage... ?

Why don't you bother looking for yourself? Everyone demands spoonfeeding.

NoSleep

I've looked and haven't found one yet.

You can't pull a single case of this abuse of confidence out of the hat, then, in their entire "2000 year reign of terror"?

NoSleep

I have found evidence of priests dying rather than revealing what they have learned through confessions.

Steven

Can you find me a single example of Scientology using 'auditing' to blackmail someone?

NoSleep

Have you not watched the documentary? I recommend that you do.

Steven

Quote from: NoSleep on April 01, 2015, 06:41:28 PM
Have you not watched the documentary? I recommend that you do.

Will try to do so later today. Though I'm guessing there's actually no proof of blackmail just lost of claims and insinuation, which is my point about espionage - by its very nature it's very hard to prove. See I could dredge up something like this, but it's just accusations. When you consider even today that priests usually get off scott-free from an obvious string of molestation, can you imagine how something as ephemeral as blackmail could be proven? In a court of law, don't forget law was completely an institution of the church also? I suggest you look up some books on the history of the Jesuits or the Catholic persecution of Freemasonry.

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 06:40:02 PM
Can you find me a single example of Scientology using 'auditing' to blackmail someone?

QuoteAffidavit of Jesse Prince (20 August 1999)
23. Members of Scientology are induced to confess to acts that, if not outright criminal, are embarrassing or possibly destructive to the person's job, marriage or profession. For example, shoplifting, adultery, masturbation, homosexuality,  drug abuse, or any other potentially embarrassing or illegal matters are recorded.  Members are urged to write down these compromising facts in their own handwriting, under the guise that it is a "religious confessional" for the member's good.  The truth is that these "confessions" are kept to blackmail and extort members should they dare to speak out against Scientology. Members are also coerced to sign documents that are self-damaging in order to protect Scientology in case they dare to leave its control and speak the damaging truth.  I know all this to be true, because I watched this done to others; I did it to others; and it was done to me.

Funcrusher


NoSleep

I wonder if any of those cases are where someone leaves the church and then blackmails Scientologists, as in Steven's example of Catholic abuse?

Custard

Watched the documentary earlier. Its disturbing, insane stuff. Seeing these seemingly sane, reasonable people drawn into such utter gubbins and having their lives plopped on as a result. All the stalking and harassment after someone dares leave is beyond belief

And as others have pointed out, it makes you wonder what messed up stuff had to be edited out!

Tempted to invest in the book

Custard

Oh, and I like him for the most part, but fuck me, Tom Cruise comes across like a total nutbar in this. That, or extremely stupid. Dunno what is worse

Noodle Lizard

At least it's on the wane.  It'd have been much bleaker if it had ended on "and new membership is at an all-time high!"


Steven

Quote from: NoSleep on April 01, 2015, 07:10:07 PM
I wonder if any of those cases are where someone leaves the church and then blackmails Scientologists, as in Steven's example of Catholic abuse?

It wasn't my example though was it? It was pointing towards a case that was similar to what I was supposing the Scientology cases would be, no evidence and just statements and insinuation. Things of this nature are hard to prove.