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Going Clear: HBO vs Scientology

Started by Hank Venture, February 11, 2015, 09:06:12 AM

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Tiny Poster


Steven

Quote from: Tiny Poster on April 01, 2015, 08:31:51 PM
Don't spoonfeed him the evidence! He's not a stupid baby!

There's been no evidence about Scientology blackmailing presented so far, so that doesn't exist either, does it?

Ant Farm Keyboard

Quote from: Steven on March 30, 2015, 09:49:35 PM
I was sure that's why Kubrick cast him in Eyes Wide Shut even though he's a bit of a walking husk as an actor, because of the cult aspect of his life. Making a statement on and off the screen about that aspect of Hollywood. Though who knows, Ryan O'Neal was a bit similar nothing of a character in Barry Lyndon.

Kubrick's first choice for Barry Lyndon was Robert Redford, who turned down the part. Warner wanted a proven star to be the lead, so he had to hire O'Neal, who had been on a hot streak.

Kubrick had a ton of casting ideas for the lead in Eyes Wide Shut, including at one point Woody Allen and Steve Martin (he was a big fan of The Jerk), as he thought it would be a dark comedy. Then, he considered taking a married couple to add plausibility to their acting. He thought about Cruise/Kidman, but in case they had turned down the offer, the next couple would have been Baldwin/Basinger.

As it has been told here, Cruise was in a moment in his life where he was less concerned about scientology and auditing, even if he hadn't left scientology. It's on the set of War of the Worlds, just when he had started "dating" Katie Holmes, when the ridiculous video and the couch jumping incident went viral that he was back in the fold for good.

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 08:39:29 PM
There's been no evidence about Scientology blackmailing presented so far, so that doesn't exist either, does it?

Myself and Funcrusher have provided links to evidence (which also point out the clear differences between auditing and confession); unfortunately you aren't able to read or follow links for some reason. Suffice to say your proof of no evidence about actual cases of catholic bribery actually make clear that nothing similar appears to be going on, as the apostate priest turned mayor would have been bribed into staying in the church with his own confessions.

Steven

An affidavit isn't really evidence, it's just a witnessed statement.

Quote from: Ant Farm Keyboard on April 01, 2015, 08:39:51 PM
Kubrick's first choice for Barry Lyndon was Robert Redford, who turned down the part. Warner wanted a proven star to be the lead, so he had to hire O'Neal, who had been on a hot streak.

Kubrick had a ton of casting ideas for the lead in Eyes Wide Shut, including at one point Woody Allen and Steve Martin (he was a big fan of The Jerk), as he thought it would be a dark comedy. Then, he considered taking a married couple to add plausibility to their acting. He thought about Cruise/Kidman, but in case they had turned down the offer, the next couple would have been Baldwin/Basinger.

As it has been told here, Cruise was in a moment in his life where he was less concerned about scientology and auditing, even if he hadn't left scientology. It's on the set of War of the Worlds, just when he had started "dating" Katie Holmes, when the ridiculous video and the couch jumping incident went viral that he was back in the fold for good.

Thanks for that, would imagine some Hollywood politicking was involved. Steve Martin sounds like an interesting choice actually, a very different type of role to what we've seen him in. I really don't like Cruise as an actor so he sort of ruins that movie for me.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
An affidavit isn't really evidence, it's just a witnessed statement.


Exactly what kind of evidence will satisfy you?

Also, what's with this Ryan O'Neal isn't good in Barry Lyndon? Great film, maybe Kubrick's best, great lead performance.

Steven

Quote from: Funcrusher on April 01, 2015, 08:56:22 PM
Exactly what kind of evidence will satisfy you?

It's espionage, it's incredibly unlikely there's going to be any 'smoking gun' evidence, that's my point!

Quote
Also, what's with this Ryan O'Neal isn't good in Barry Lyndon? Great film, maybe Kubrick's best, great lead performance.

I gave my initial impressions here. I've only seen it once though, but as a comedy/satire I didn't get much out of it

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
An affidavit isn't really evidence, it's just a witnessed statement.

All written "proof" that can be linked to can be similarly casually dismissed as lies or whatever. What is "real" evidence? Have you checked the many other cases on that page that Funcrusher linked?

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 09:01:28 PM
It's espionage, it's incredibly unlikely there's going to be any 'smoking gun' evidence, that's my point!

Not even an affidavit from a victim? 2000 years you say? And all we have is your own word.

Steven

Quote from: NoSleep on April 01, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
Not even an affidavit from a victim? 2000 years you say? And all we have is your own word.

Unless you want to spend however long digging through google, books and legal cases, yes! I have no motive to do so other than proving someone notoriously argumentative on the internet wrong, no thanks. It is a supposition on my part from knowing how these kinds of organisations operate, I don't care about 'evidence' presented about Scientology blackmailing people, it's obvious that's what they do due to their methods, structure and history. Similarly with the Catholic church, but they've been at it for far longer and are far smarter there's not going to be much to find since they have controlled the legal system and society at large with a iron fist until relatively recently. You can disagree, but I'll say you're incredibly naive.

Putting on the HBO Going Clear documentary now actually..

Noodle Lizard

It's pretty well-documented that scientology uses information collected in auditing to blackmail people.  Maybe there isn't written conclusive proof, but it can't be a coincidence that so many former members and even those who used to do the auditing testify to it.

I've not heard of the Catholic church doing anything similar, at least not on a grand scale.  I think the difference is that scientology operates more like a scammy business or company - and if you've ever tried to leave a company as a customer, you'll know how creepy they are about trying to get you back.  The Catholic church is more like Tesco - they don't really care if individual people stop going so long as there isn't a large-scale exodus.

thraxx


How can I see this?  Is it in the cinemas?

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: thraxx on April 01, 2015, 10:12:45 PM
How can I see this?  Is it in the cinemas?

It was on HBO, but it'll be on the torrents by now.  I reckon that's the only way you'll get it in the UK.

thraxx

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on April 01, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
It was on HBO, but it'll be on the torrents by now.  I reckon that's the only way you'll get it in the UK.

OK - ta for that.  I can't seen to access the HBO website.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: thraxx on April 01, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
OK - ta for that.  I can't seen to access the HBO website.

Well you need a subscription to watch it on there anyway.

olliebean

Quote from: Tiny Poster on April 01, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
Yes, there's an incredible amount of extremely justified shit you can throw at the Catholic church, even around the whole notion of the Confessional itself, but the actual "sins" confessed are kept confidential (unless it's a murder or child abuse or such, and even then I expect that depends on the who's taking the confession).

If it's murder, they probably encourage you to turn yourself in. If it's child abuse, I expect they ordain you on the spot.

Ant Farm Keyboard

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
Thanks for that, would imagine some Hollywood politicking was involved. Steve Martin sounds like an interesting choice actually, a very different type of role to what we've seen him in. I really don't like Cruise as an actor so he sort of ruins that movie for me.

Kubrick was very concerned by his films being commercial hits, so he wouldn't have to follow decisions by a studio, apart from an agreement on the rating and stuff like that.
The Shining was a comeback feature after Barry Lyndon lost money on its release, and Kubrick really wanted to get a big star like Nicholson, in addition to a best seller by King to secure the deal.

EWS was a passion project for Kubrick. He actually bought the film rights in the seventies, under an alias. He had in mind Allen and Martin during the eighties, as it was revealed after his death, but we're not even sure he made some kind of offer to them. And later, he had other ideas about the adaptation.

A final thing about Kubrick is that the film took its true form during filming and editing. The script was just a starting point. He did few story boards, and he took, as we all know, long months on set, not trying to get the "perfect" take for something he had in mind from the beginning but for a new, interesting idea to emerge at some point.

Anyway, Kubrick wanted his daughter (who had already scored Full Metal Jacket) to write the music for Eyes Wide Shut. At this point in their lives, their relationship was already strained, she was living in L.A., and she didn't answer his messages. It was shortly after his death that they discovered she had joined the CoS.


If you watch the documentary, you see that there are many testimonies that auditing is extensively used to get documentation about every member. They keep archives, there's some CCTV in some centers that link directly to a room where Miscavige goes at his own will, and when somebody wants to defect, they browse through the notes or the recordings, and they constitute a dossier against the dissenter they use as leverage. Auditing may have not been designed for this, but it's been turned into the biggest source for incriminating stuff. And you can't say confession is routinely used to gain advantage on catholic followers.
It's strongly hinted in the documentary that it's how they still keep Travolta involved, as he revealed to them everything he was ashamed of, hoping he would get rid of it, most likely stuff about his alleged homosexuality. Material from the auditing might also have been a last resort option for Cruise, but they didn't need to play that card.
The guys who defect scientology get automatically labeled as alcoholics, wife beaters, etc. with a new website revealing every wrongdoing they know about the person. It's obvious that they were in a position to use the intel against the dissenter before that.

And, it may not be traditional blackmail, but the threat to cut all connections with family and friends if you defect is a form of pressure against disillusioned members to stay in the church.

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 09:29:26 PM
Similarly with the Catholic church, but they've been at it for far longer and are far smarter there's not going to be much to find since they have controlled the legal system and society at large with a iron fist until relatively recently. You can disagree, but I'll say you're incredibly naive.

It's pretty naive to compare the specific pressure to write down your confessions and then have them carefully filed for posterity under your name, specifically to use against you if you decide to leave Scientology, to the the practice of confession in the Catholic church where nothing is recorded and specifics (like names and addresses) are not eked out of the confessor. Perhaps you're conflating the Inquisition?

NoSleep

Quote from: Steven on April 01, 2015, 09:29:26 PM
I have no motive to do so other than proving someone notoriously argumentative on the internet wrong, no thanks.

You don't have any hard evidence at all; it's all in your imagination, something you "suppose"; rather like accusing the "criminals" who eventually "confessed" in the Inquisition.


thraxx

Quote from: Swoz_MK on April 02, 2015, 09:18:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tiKwvahf9U

Thanks for that.  I managed to sneak a peak somewhere else as that had been quite rightly taken down to copyright infringement.

It wasn't as hardcore as I imagined, but I think that's because I've been exposed to other Scientology documentaries before.  It was good to see some of the former insiders exposing what has gone on. 

I watched this as well, which is basically a 2.5 hour talking head shot of a Scientology victim.  But some of the stuff he describes, especially about the registrars is frankly astonishing - it's hard to escape the conclusion that you'd have to be a total fuck-up to fall for their schtick. It sounds like a pyramid scheme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKqOUMrCw8

I just don't get how people can fall prey to the things they describe.  It does seem that the people in Scientology are expert manipulators and salespeople, but surely most people would just tell them to fuck off fairly rapidly.

Tiny Poster

Well, most people do, but there only needs to be say 1in every 1000 people the shop on Tottenham Court Road bothers to make up the membership.

NoSleep

Perhaps less than 1 in a 1000:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_the_United_Kingdom#Number_of_adherents

QuoteThe Church claims a membership of 118,000 members in the United Kingdom, including 15,000 regular participants, and in the past has claimed as many as 200,000 British members. However, the 2001 census of England and Wales, which included an optional question about religion, gave a figure of 1,781 Scientologists.

Tiny Poster

Yeah, I plucked the number out of my arse. I'd wager that a lot of the UK members live in or around East Grinstead.

thraxx

Quote from: Tiny Poster on April 02, 2015, 06:07:02 PM
Yeah, I plucked the number out of my arse. I'd wager that a lot of the UK members live in or around East Grinstead.

I hope that the Scientology offices have the poster that says 'You don't have to be mad to work here, but it helps!'.

Dropshadow

I wonder what would happen if a terrorist group composed of various Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Zionist Jews, those extremist Catholics in that blockbuster holy grail film, followers of that bearded Beatles guy, those UFO nutjobs and Russell Brand's Youtube followers formed a suicide squad and attacked the scientology HQ? And, better still, if a flash-crowd of concerned Islamist extremists waded in and helped the scientologists "defend the gates", as it were, and generally save the day? I'd imagine the world's press would be very, very confused.

QDRPHNC


Steven

Quote from: NoSleep on April 02, 2015, 08:14:10 AM
It's pretty naive to compare the specific pressure to write down your confessions and then have them carefully filed for posterity under your name, specifically to use against you if you decide to leave Scientology, to the the practice of confession in the Catholic church where nothing is recorded and specifics (like names and addresses) are not eked out of the confessor. Perhaps you're conflating the Inquisition?

It's naive to assume two religions that use an assumed authority to ask people to give all of their most personal details to them as a form of 'cleansing' are at all similar in tactics? Scientology just does it a lot more ham-fisted, which is why they are being attacked on every legal front at the moment. Do you think traditionally a priest would not know who was confessing to him of his flock of parishioners in his little provincial town? People didn't have addresses, they were known by their job or by their township. Perhaps you're conflating being incredibly obvious with being subtle?

mobias

Quote from: QDRPHNC on April 02, 2015, 09:18:36 PM
Well I think Tom cruise is nice

My step sister is a set designer and has worked on a couple of Tom Cruise movies and has nothing but good words to say about him. He's meant to be incredibly nice and generous. Less so other actors like Jonny Depp, who she's also been on set with (he's meant to be an utter wanker). Scientology aside I've got a lot of time for Cruise going by the stories she's told me.

Hank Venture

He's had slave labour, amongst those underage children, renovate his million dollar mansion for $0.4 an hour, allegedly. He once bought the extras at War of the Worlds KFC though.