Author Topic: "Holy Grails" that actually exist  (Read 6165 times)

JesusAndYourBush

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2015, 12:50:27 PM »
Floyd - Theres quite a bit of bootlegged stuff that's good enough to be released, the Man/Journey show from Amsterdam in 1969, BBC recordings in 70/71, parts of Montreux 70 and the longer outtakes from Zabriskie Point. What might be in the vault has never really been rumoured...

Those are hardly Holy Grails though!  The bootlegs exist, you most likely have them.

I'd like to hear some of the early tracks that exist but are being hoarded by various band members/record company/etc.

Double O Bo / Butterfly (from around the same time as Lucy Leave / King Bee. Nick Mason has a copy.)

Gyllene Cirkeln. 1967 audience tape. Extremely good quality but with quiet vocals. This was played to live audiences for 2 performances a few years ago. The audience got to look at puppets and watch the reels of the tape recorder go round and round (or more likely it was a prop since it'd be foolish to jeopardise the tape like this when they were more likely playing it from a digital copy). An audience tape exists which is an audience recording of an audience recording, it sounds ok but far from how it could sound, plus one track was held back and remains unheard.

Some other unreleased tracks were played to a fan who was interviewing a band member and so exist on the interview tape in poor quality.  These would sound infinitely better coming from the original tape.

Plus of source stuff held by the record company.

For years Dave Gilmour hoarded the tape of Syd's "Bob Dylan Blues" citing various spurious reasons why it hadn't been released.  It was finally released a few years ago.  It's a fun track and a decent performance, proving that the band members aren't a good judge of what should or shouldn't be released.  Compare that to some of the tracks on Syd's solo albums, some of which I find upsetting to listen to because the guy's clearly not all there, and the between-song parts certainly don't help.

Over the last decade I've been impressed by the slow trickle of video material that keeps appearing, so I'm sure there's plenty of things yet to appear.

This - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZZ-GeZk1gM excellent sounding (at least from that excerpt) performance of AHM was also filmed in full, but remains unreleased.

I doubt that exists in full.  You have to remember how TV stations operate, film a small amount of footage(especially if it's shot on film) for inclusion in a tv show, then no reason to keep any of the offcuts, because why would they.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 01:00:36 PM by JesusAndYourBush »

great_badir

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2015, 01:07:50 PM »
I doubt that exists in full.  You have to remember how TV stations operate, film a small amount of footage(especially if it's shot on film) for inclusion in a tv show, then no reason to keep any of the offcuts, because why would they.

Well, there was certainly confirmation from various peeps on Floyd boards when that footage first appeared a few years ago that the performance (of, I think, AHM only) was certainly captured in its entirety.  Whether it does still exist or not is another matter.  It would be similar to Genesis' headlining of the 1978 Knebworth festival, which was filmed for a Nationwide documentary.  "Eyewitness testimony" and photos from the show confirm that the BBC cameras were rolling for the entire performance, but nothing other than the doc itself (which only contains excerpts of the show) has ever materialised.  I expect the BBC burnt or binned it, like they did pretty much everything else back then.

JesusAndYourBush

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2015, 01:51:45 PM »
Well, there was certainly confirmation from various peeps on Floyd boards when that footage first appeared a few years ago that the performance (of, I think, AHM only) was certainly captured in its entirety.  Whether it does still exist or not is another matter.  It would be similar to Genesis' headlining of the 1978 Knebworth festival, which was filmed for a Nationwide documentary.  "Eyewitness testimony" and photos from the show confirm that the BBC cameras were rolling for the entire performance, but nothing other than the doc itself (which only contains excerpts of the show) has ever materialised.  I expect the BBC burnt or binned it, like they did pretty much everything else back then.

Well it'd be definitely nice if it did exist in it's entirety, but it seems that from things I've read on the net people often assume that because a short clip exists it must mean that the whole thing exists, but that shows a total lack of understanding of how TV works.  A TV station doesn't care about your[nb]Not you personally, people in general.[/nb] favourite band, they're there to make a tv show and once they have a show any other materials are discarded afterwards, or tapes re-used.  All they care about is the finished product, a finished show ready to broadcast.  Unfortunately the idea that a TV station would film an entire performance (just so they could use a short extract in a tv show) and then for them to keep the tape in their archive is merely a pipe dream.

Thinking about what Floyd footage has surfaced, I can think of...

Amsterdam 1972. About 40 mins of b&w footage, 3 whole songs.
St Tropez 1970. About an hour of colour footage from a French TV show. (Am I misremembering or did this one appear on April 1st causing some initial disbelief.)
Atom Heart Mother, b&w footage, Bath 1970
Set The Controls film rushes, 1968
A plethora of European TV show clips from 1968-69, but frustratingly not 1967.
Hyde Park 1970, from an old decaying tape.
Various 8mm 70's concert clips, expertly synched with (in most cases) the original sound from an audience recording.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 02:02:00 PM by JesusAndYourBush »

Don_Preston

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2015, 02:14:25 PM »

I’m also a Zappa fan.  Some of you will already know what I’m going to say – the complete Roxy performances.  All three December shows at the Roxy on The Mothers’ 1973 tour were filmed and recorded using multiple cameras and a multi-track board.  Some of the material went into the Roxy & Elsewhere album.  The rest of it was teasingly promised to Zappa fans way back when Baby Snakes was released on DVD in 2003, with a trailer for the Roxy film (“the complete shows, remastered”) and, later, an extended piece of footage put on YouTube.  Despite that, all we have seen of it is a single (incomplete) audio CD culled from two shows, and that was only released last year (a whole decade after the material was promised), and the odd single song that has made its way onto compilations (the You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore series, for example).  The fans have been up in arms about it for ages, but the Zappa Family Trust (headed up by FZ’s widow Gail, and partly overseen by Dweezil) don’t seem to be able to give a straight answer as to what the hold-up is, or even if we will ever see what was promised so long ago.  Similarly missing, with much less fanfare, is the Elsewhere portion of the album, recorded in 1974.  One complete soundboard show does exist, but it is a dreadful sounding bootleg (either a very very low generation, or a very poor recording first time around).  Beyond that, for years the consensus has been that the FZ archives contain a wealth of unreleased concerts, albums and other material, but keeper of the vault (and ex Dweezil alumni) Joe Travers maintains that there really isn’t anywhere near as much as people think, and most of the decent sounding stuff has already been released.  Who knows.

My Elsewhere bootleg doesn't sound too bad (bar a couple of cuts for tape changes). Great arrangement of Inca Roads on it. Love the added moog weirdness of Don Preston, who isn't on the Roxy shows. I couldn't really care about the Roxy show debacle, as I was far more pleased and surprised that a release finally surfaced with the earlier Jean-Luc Ponty band. There are some tremendous sounding tapes from the Sydney concerts of 1973, which hopefully will yield a release (Again, only one track from that run found its way on to a YCDTOSA album).

Not at all arsed, like many fans are, that Dance Me This, an album of synclavier guff, is due out in a few weeks.

great_badir

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2015, 02:49:01 PM »
Well it'd be definitely nice if it did exist in it's entirety, but it seems that from things I've read on the net people often assume that because a short clip exists it must mean that the whole thing exists, but that shows a total lack of understanding of how TV works.
 

There was confirmation that it was filmed in its entirety.  But, sadly, current existence, and whereabouts if it does exist, unknown.


Quote
Thinking about what Floyd footage has surfaced, I can think of...

Amsterdam 1972. About 40 mins of b&w footage, 3 whole songs.
St Tropez 1970. About an hour of colour footage from a French TV show. (Am I misremembering or did this one appear on April 1st causing some initial disbelief.)
Atom Heart Mother, b&w footage, Bath 1970
Set The Controls film rushes, 1968
A plethora of European TV show clips from 1968-69, but frustratingly not 1967.
Hyde Park 1970, from an old decaying tape.
Various 8mm 70's concert clips, expertly synched with (in most cases) the original sound from an audience recording.

Also San Francisco TV broadcast - 71/72?

Rumour has had it for years that Zappa recorded the '69 show where he sat in with them for Interstellar Overdrive, but that is just rumour.  Someone also MUST have a recording of when Syd was totally fucked on the Pat Boone show.


Not at all arsed, like many fans are, that Dance Me This, an album of synclavier guff, is due out in a few weeks.

Me neither.  All the synclavier stuff can get to fuck.  Unlistenable in my opinion.

Much as I love Roxy, I agree with you about the Ponty release.  A fantastic show.  Also, I salivate more at the prospect of the Elsewhere tapes than the Roxy tapes, partly for the extra Mothers, but also because of the sheer variety of stuff they did at those shows.

TJ

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2015, 02:49:30 PM »
Well it'd be definitely nice if it did exist in it's entirety, but it seems that from things I've read on the net people often assume that because a short clip exists it must mean that the whole thing exists, but that shows a total lack of understanding of how TV works.  A TV station doesn't care about your[nb]Not you personally, people in general.[/nb] favourite band, they're there to make a tv show and once they have a show any other materials are discarded afterwards, or tapes re-used.  All they care about is the finished product, a finished show ready to broadcast.  Unfortunately the idea that a TV station would film an entire performance (just so they could use a short extract in a tv show) and then for them to keep the tape in their archive is merely a pipe dream.

Thinking about what Floyd footage has surfaced, I can think of...

Amsterdam 1972. About 40 mins of b&w footage, 3 whole songs.
St Tropez 1970. About an hour of colour footage from a French TV show. (Am I misremembering or did this one appear on April 1st causing some initial disbelief.)
Atom Heart Mother, b&w footage, Bath 1970
Set The Controls film rushes, 1968
A plethora of European TV show clips from 1968-69, but frustratingly not 1967.
Hyde Park 1970, from an old decaying tape.
Various 8mm 70's concert clips, expertly synched with (in most cases) the original sound from an audience recording.

As a very, very young youngster, I saw a clip from a TV performance of See Emily Play that was clearly from a VT source - the only trouble is I have no idea what programme it was used in (I did once make a best guess at Pop Quiz but someone checked that for me and couldn't nail it) nor what the original show was. It certainly looked more like something like Beat Club than TOTP or whatever, though, or it could even have been an ITV show culled from a now-decimated or lost archive (ATV or Rediffusion or someone). Always annoyed me that I can't identify it!

TJ

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2015, 02:52:01 PM »
Knowing a bit about American TV Archives, the Pat Boone shows could well exist, it's just that they could be fucking *anywhere*, uncatalogued to boot. Entire huge film and VT libraries change hands all the time, usually as a result of a takeover to do with some other business aspect entirely. Imagine the Disney/TVS mess and multiply it by fifteen thousand.

JesusAndYourBush

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2015, 03:08:23 PM »
Also San Francisco TV broadcast - 71/72?

Rumour has had it for years that Zappa recorded the '69 show where he sat in with them for Interstellar Overdrive, but that is just rumour.  Someone also MUST have a recording of when Syd was totally fucked on the Pat Boone show.

KQED-TV, 1970.  I was only thinking about the things that've surfaced in the last 10 years or so, I've had KQED on VHS since around 1989.  I still prefer the sound on my copy to the pristine upgrades that have been made available, there's a kindof hiss/hum/rumble and it never sounds right to me without this!

There's an audience tape of them with Zappa on Interstellar Overdrive but unfortunately the video doesn't include that song.

great_badir

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2015, 03:14:19 PM »
KQED-TV, 1970.  I was only thinking about the things that've surfaced in the last 10 years or so, I've had KQED on VHS since around 1989.  I still prefer the sound on my copy to the pristine upgrades that have been made available, there's a kindof hiss/hum/rumble and it never sounds right to me without this!

There's an audience tape of them with Zappa on Interstellar Overdrive but unfortunately the video doesn't include that song.

KQED - that's the one.  My VHS of it (purchased at a record fair in Bristol around the mid 90s) must have been about 20th generation.  Awful interference and audio wobble, as if the tracking was constantly kicking in.  I only saw a decent version when it turned up on YouTube (which must've been in the last few years).

I have a couple of different audience (audio) tapes of the Amougies shows (both Floyd and Zappa sets) but, unfortunately, they're all pretty unlistenable.  Shame, cos it sounds like both put on good shows.

Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2015, 07:13:01 PM »
Those will probably just be recordings of guitar ideas on an acoustic guitar in a hotel room, unlikely to be band tapes; the kind of thing that should have come out as a bootleg decades ago if it was anybody else except Jimi Hendrix (like those piano demos of Captain Beefheart). That album that Eddie Kramer cobbled together a couple of years back was purported to be the last new finished music we would hear from Hendrix.

They are just home demos but probably on a quiet electric, Jimi hardly ever used acoustics for recording anything, but they were a load of songs that were new titles and not all the same stuff we've heard before under different titles. A LOT of the bootlegs are of the same material or different takes retitled to give the impression there's a lot more songs floating about than there is. I still haven't heard that People Hell and Angels album, but from the titles it's all stuff I downloaded off the net back in the late 90s off of bootlegs, plus millions of other great demos and studio improvisations, just that illusive Black Gold tape I could never find.

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2015, 07:44:38 PM »
People Hell and Angels is a reconstruction created from various takes; so you might have the drums from one take with the guitar from another (from the original multitracks). I've played around doing stuff like that myself and I can hear some stuff isn't exactly in sync (compared to listening to a bona fide, recorded and mixed while he was in the studio, classic Hendrix track) . Maybe it was a time issue, but I think Eddie Kramer could gone a bit deeper into the editing than he has. Perhaps it's that out-of-syncness that somebody upthread counted as the "loose feel" of the album.

Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2015, 07:58:59 PM »
Yeah fuck those Frankenstein recordings done by Alan Douglas after Jimi's death, lot of awful stuff, Kramer probably had more attention to detail but working to the mandate of Experience Hendrix. Looks like one Black Gold track was released as Suddenly November Morning, but the rest wont see the light of day until some unknown time. There was a rather good bootleg from the 90s incedentally called Black Gold which had some interesting studio recordings, plus almost the whole recording of Jimi basically improvising the song Voodoo Child Slight Return from the earlier bluesier version into the fuzzed up wah wah version we know today in about 15 takes, it's an incredible listen and I think was captured on camera by a recording team so video might exist somewhere. Haven't checked into Hendrix stuff for around 15 years though!

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2015, 08:11:23 PM »
Yeah fuck those Frankenstein recordings done by Alan Douglas after Jimi's death, lot of awful stuff, Kramer probably had more attention to detail but working to the mandate of Experience Hendrix.

Alan Douglas recorded new rhythm tracks with session men (after Hendrix's death), which is why that stuff sounds so leaden and plodding compared to how Hendrix would have directed a rhythm section to play. Eddie Kramer has at least used Hendrix-directed recordings only.

Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2015, 08:46:47 PM »
I wouldn't be that hard on Douglas, he presumably produced those with Mike Jefferies prodding him with a gun and screaming about royalties.

Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2015, 08:47:22 PM »
Thinking about what Floyd footage has surfaced, I can think of...

Amsterdam 1972. About 40 mins of b&w footage, 3 whole songs.
St Tropez 1970. About an hour of colour footage from a French TV show. (Am I misremembering or did this one appear on April 1st causing some initial disbelief.)
Atom Heart Mother, b&w footage, Bath 1970
Set The Controls film rushes, 1968
A plethora of European TV show clips from 1968-69, but frustratingly not 1967.
Hyde Park 1970, from an old decaying tape.
Various 8mm 70's concert clips, expertly synched with (in most cases) the original sound from an audience recording.

Theres that Superstars in Concert video from Brighton 72 with Careful with that Axe and Set the Controls...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srTkNUA0fBA

I remember hearing some talk that the entire second set might have been filmed with One of These Days, Echoes and Saucerful as well although that maybe just speculation.

Again no idea if its out there but the last show of the 77 tour with Waters spitting on the fan would be great to hear in professional quality, the incident itself actually works into Pigs quite well and the performance in general is about as brutal, part 8 of Shine On especially...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZSjhG0YQ_4

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2015, 08:58:47 PM »
I wouldn't be that hard on Douglas, he presumably produced those with Mike Jefferies prodding him with a gun and screaming about royalties.

He had no taste, as Eddie Kramer writes about in his book on Hendrix. Douglas would stick stuff out where maybe Hendrix was on fire but the backing musicians are not keeping up. Plus he got the reputation for living off the dead; not just Hendrix but Coltrane and Lenny Bruce, too; and sticking half-baked jams out as records, like the Devotion[nb]Not to be mistake for the Love, Devotion & Surrender album, with Santana, although that's not a great McLaughlin album, either[/nb] album by John McLaughlin, with loads of OTT post production to try and hide that it wasn't an official release (there's a couple of good tracks on it, though). Also, while Hendrix was alive, he would just leave Hendrix in the studio to jam, recording tape after tape without any production advice or focus (I doubt he was even in the same building).

JesusAndYourBush

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2015, 12:43:51 AM »
Again no idea if its out there but the last show of the 77 tour with Waters spitting on the fan would be great to hear in professional quality, the incident itself actually works into Pigs quite well and the performance in general is about as brutal, part 8 of Shine On especially...

Definitely brutal, since a girl was either blinded or seriously maimed by a rogue firework set off by a fan during the performance.

Don_Preston

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2015, 01:02:52 AM »
just Hendrix but Coltrane and Lenny Bruce, too; and sticking half-baked jams out as records

Sounds far more star-studded than what you could ever produce!

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2015, 09:50:12 AM »
Ah yeah you're heavily into half-baked jams[nb]But with nothing close to the ability of a Hendrix or McLaughlin and situated in an empty pub.[/nb]

Don_Preston

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2015, 09:54:19 AM »
into half-baked jams

Blimey, just heard a bit and they've gone pop! Have they stopped playing on decommissioned nuclear subs now?

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2015, 10:01:44 AM »
Do you play for free beer?

Don_Preston

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2015, 10:04:04 AM »
Do you play for free beer?

Never heard of them!

NoSleep

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2015, 10:05:33 AM »
Van Morrison was their singer.

SteveDave

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »
A few Velvet Underground holy grails have been uncovered in the last few years including a "White Light/White Heat" era studio version of "Beginning To See The Light"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7hJpkWNPI

There's a few clips (of under a minute each) of a live show from 1969 that someone has & is holding to ransom for $$$ from whoever VU's record label is now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlM2zGg7_Bc

EDIT- It appears that show appears on the deluxe package of the 3rd LP released last year. Hmmm...

The only things missing now are a song called something like "Never Make Love To Man, Woman, Child Or Beast" from their earliest demo tape & "Lonesome Cowboys"[nb]Not "Lonesome Cowboy Bill"[/nb] that was recorded in 1969 for the Warhol film of the same name.

Ooh, and a studio version of "Guess I'm Falling In Love" with vocals.

great_badir

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2015, 12:14:21 PM »
Van Morrison was their singer.

True story - someone in my year at 6th form was in a band who decided on the name Free Beer, purely to try and get more peeps turning up stupidly thinking that there would be free beer.

Unfortunately, it didn't work because most people aren't actually that stupid.

In fairness, they stuck with the name until they split up a few years later (late 90s), after a farewell gig at the Fleece and Firkin in Bristol, where they shared, with then relatively little-known Muse, duties supporting White Town.  Since then, the drummer has become a busy session drummer, the singer is a regular turn in Bristol pubs that have live music, the bass player (the one who was in my year) is now an artist in Cardiff, and the guitarist works for a car rental firm[NB]and, ironically, makes the most money out of all of them[/NB].

Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2015, 08:36:39 AM »
Someone on here might have an idea about this.

The version of Space by Space (KLF) that still has Alex Patterson's samples in before he left and did The Orb. This apparently exists but even the most KLF obsessive fans I know don't have one.

Also a proper copy of the Kalevala Huono Viisaus LP. There is a really crap quality one about but not a proper CD, which exists.
That's not really a Holy Grail though is it. It's something that's knocking about but hasn't be properly found yet.
If anyone has one please let me know...

Thanks for mentioning the FSOL Environments. I didn't even know that was out.

purlieu

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2015, 01:29:08 PM »
The version of Space by Space (KLF) that still has Alex Patterson's samples in before he left and did The Orb. This apparently exists but even the most KLF obsessive fans I know don't have one.
https://soundcloud.com/kewell69/space-jimmy-cauty-dr-alex

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2015, 02:51:32 PM »
I've thought of another one.
If anyone out there has ever heard/seen the vinyl or CD of Hotline by Black Lodge (MWR157), I will do almost anything to obtain it.  Even an mp3 would be pretty amazing.
It's a test press, also on Mo'Wax of a tune that was never released.  It's elusiveness irritates and enthralls me.

This bloke's got one but he's not sharing.
https://musicismthought.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/black-lodge-mo-waxs-forgotten-mancunian-master/

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2015, 10:55:01 PM »
https://soundcloud.com/kewell69/space-jimmy-cauty-dr-alex
????!!!!!?????

Is that for real? Chalk me up as someone else who has never previously heard it. I knew of its existence, obviously.

purlieu

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Re: "Holy Grails" that actually exist
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2015, 11:21:08 PM »
Yup, Alex played it on Fnoob a couple of years back.