Is Pulp Fiction shit?

[Carpool Dragon]

Whatever about the rest of it, but how can anyone not enjoy Jackson's performance? He delivered Tarantino's contrived dialogue with masterful conviction[nb]("The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast" still makes me chuckle just thinking about it, it's all in the way he says it.) [/nb], he's the only one who I could believe is a real person. If the Oscars were any indication of quality, he would have won Best Supporting that year. [nb]BUT THEY'RE NOT.[/nb]

[East of Eden]

Nah, you can enjoy a film in one mode or perspective and pick it apart in another. You can have more than one thought in your head at a time. Your approach seems the more flawed one, ignoring things you don't like thinking about and switching bits of your brain off in order to enjoy something in a more mindless way. That doesn't seems like a better, more joyful or less cynical way to watch things at all.

PF is not a masterpiece but it's an interesting piece of art, and such things can withstand analysis. The art work is more robust than you think, and your gaze less destructive.

There's a certain hypocrisy that grates with me, and it is totally cynical. People will gaze a far more negative and overly critical eye on films they look down on and its widely acceptable to look down on, whilst being far more passive and deferential to films they look up to and are widely accepted as "classics".

I doubt anyone that would joyously rip Con Air or Face/Off to shreds would do the same to something like Taxi Driver or The Treasure of Sierra Madre. There is a very clear dogma and dishonesty that shrouds certain films but not others. "Its stood the test of time" can fuck off too, that bollocks.

I just hate stuff like, we live in a world where people will shit on something, rather than praise something. Because one is scary and one is easy. Where did sincerity go?

I watched The Cable Guy a while ago, because it was supposedly dark. There's nothing dark about it. Its saaaaaaaaaaad. Man Bites Dog, Happiness are what I'd call proper dark comedies.

[Steven]

I watched The Cable Guy a while ago, because it was supposedly dark. There's nothing dark about it. Its saaaaaaaaaaad. Man Bites Dog, Happiness are what I'd call proper dark comedies.

You should look into the background of the film it actually started out as a light-hearted comedy similar to What About Bob? which I'd argue certainly has dark elements, and Chris Farley was going to be the star. After many changes Judd Apatow became involved and of course Jim Carrey, Ben Stiller was brought in to direct and the idea of someone stalking you through their IT knowledge became the thriller element, but with Carrey involved it would be more of a spoof, in fact a lot of the darker elements were removed at the request of the studio, but it's certainly quite dark for a big Hollywood Jim Carrey the kids favourite movie of the time.

[Noodle Lizard]

I watched The Cable Guy a while ago, because it was supposedly dark. There's nothing dark about it. Its saaaaaaaaaaad. Man Bites Dog, Happiness are what I'd call proper dark comedies.

For a PG-13 movie starring height-of-fame Jim Carrey and Ferris Bueller it's pretty miserable and uncomfortable.  Obviously Man Bites Dog and Happiness are darker, obviously.

I just hate stuff like, we live in a world where people will shit on something, rather than praise something. Because one is scary and one is easy. Where did sincerity go?

I wouldn't necessarily say praise is "scary".  What's scary is telling people you thought The Dark Knight was "only okay".  I've actually been yelled at for that.  Then again, saying I liked The Human Centipede 3 or the TV Spartacus does get pretty nonplussed reactions from people (who usually haven't seen it).

Either way, I reckon I do both in about equal measure, though me going on about things I like bores people, whilst me getting worked up about something I don't like makes them think I'm a grumpy sod who hates everything.  The amount of times I highly recommend movies or music to people which they never bother with, and then have them accuse me of never being satisfied when I say I didn't like The Conjuring or whatever.  Eh.

The Dogs (2015) - now that Daniel F. Phythian's gone, I shall be intermittently reminding people of this.

[Default to the negative]

What's scary is telling people you thought The Dark Knight was "only okay".  I've actually been yelled at for that.

I don't think this is a true story, Noodle.

[Steven]

Seeing as one of the starring roles in the Cable Guy is played by an actual double-murderer it's much darker than that other shit you mentioned, and don't forget Jim Carrey is Canadian. *shudders*

[Noodle Lizard]

I don't think this is a true story, Noodle.

I mean, I didn't say "it's only okay" and instantly get yelled at, but after a while the other fella got very angry when I wouldn't "admit" that it was as good as he thought it was.  It'd be a weird thing to lie about, really, and if you go on any Nolan IMDb board you'll see how defensive some of his fans can be.  Now I think of it, the same guy also had a go at me for criticising Richard Dawkins, so perhaps he was just a particularly angry young man.

Then again, in support of EoE's point, a band just released a new song and all the top comments are variations on "This is shite", "It's like having super cancer in my ears" etc.  The one comment which says "I actually thought this was quite good!" got the response "No it isn't, shut up".

It is a really rubbish song though, so ...

[Blumf]

See also the stuff about no-one admitting to having seen Tron. That too has enjoyed a much deserved reevaluation.

Wait! What?

When was that a thing? Tron has always got respect round my circles.

[East of Eden]

For a PG-13 movie starring height-of-fame Jim Carrey and Ferris Bueller it's pretty miserable and uncomfortable.  Obviously Man Bites Dog and Happiness are darker, obviously.

DON'T CALL IT A FUCKING DARK COMEDY THEN! WOULD YOU CALL JAMES AND GIANT FUCKING PEACH A DARK COMEDY?[nb]I'm doing a stunning impression of that Dark Knight guy, but I'm also serious.[/nb]

[Steven]

When was that a thing? Tron has always got respect round my circles.

I think he means the remakes.

DON'T CALL IT A FUCKING DARK COMEDY THEN! WOULD YOU CALL JAMES AND GIANT FUCKING PEACH A DARK COMEDY?

It's about mass media like Hollywood, to have Jim Carrey the wacky kiddy favourite doing anything dark was a difficult premise at the time. Getting money in the coffers always reviles anything innovative or taking chances, hance The Cable Guy being dark for a mainstream movie starring Jim Carrey, and as I said the studio had a lot of the darker elements removed. Roald Dahl's stuff was considered dark though wasn't it? Certainly folk tales such as the Grimm's stuff always had its dark elements. The Plague Dogs and Watership Down and other similar cartoons were incredibly dark for kids, can you imagine Pixar putting out anything like that? No chance.

[Noodle Lizard]

DON'T CALL IT A FUCKING DARK COMEDY THEN! WOULD YOU CALL JAMES AND GIANT FUCKING PEACH A DARK COMEDY?[nb]I'm doing a stunning impression of that Dark Knight guy, but I'm also serious.[/nb]

I don't know if I'd call James & The Giant Peach much of a comedy at all, but it's certainly darker than most films in that demographic aye.  From what I remember anyway.  Isn't there a horrible bit underwater with all these fucking ghouls?

[DukeDeMondo]

I think he means the remakes.

No, not at all, received wisdom for a long, long time had it that Tron was utter bollocks.

Here's the Simpsons joke in question: https://youtu.be/msKI1T9i710

 

[Blumf]

No, not at all, received wisdom for a long, long time had it that Tron was utter bollocks.

Here's the Simpsons joke in question: https://youtu.be/msKI1T9i710

That's not a joke about Tron being crap, it's just a joke about Homer trying to describe something by referencing a film, and nobody having seen it.

Going to need a better citation than that.

[DukeDeMondo]

That's not a joke about Tron being crap, it's just a joke about Homer trying to describe something by referencing a film, and nobody having seen it.

Going to need a better citation than that.

But then Wiggum's "Yes... uh, I mean no" and nervous laugh makes no sense.

EDIT: I can find no better evidence, other than a posting on a website all about "Films That Were Derided But Went On To Become Classics." Tron had the piss taken out it for years, is all I can say, and you'll just have to believe me that that is what I know to be the truth.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Your approach seems the more flawed one, ignoring things you don't like thinking about and switching bits of your brain off in order to enjoy something in a more mindless way.

I strongly disagree with this. I like most films I watch, I don't find it that hard to let things slide which would ruin the experience for more critical people or viewing with a different frame of mind. Surely 2 hours of enjoyment is preferable to wasting 2 hours being annoyed?

[Steven]

I strongly disagree with this. I like most films I watch, I don't find it that hard to let things slide which would ruin the experience for more critical people or viewing with a different frame of mind. Surely 2 hours of enjoyment is preferable to wasting 2 hours being annoyed?

How do you know if you're going to be ultimately annoyed until it ends? Some films are like that. Try watching Memento, it's entirely fucking annoying as nothing makes any sense as the narrative is out of sync, until there's a moment when you see enough pieces to put the narrative together, except they do so in an over the top gratuitous way with scene after scene stitching it together to make sure you understand exactly what the narrative is and thusly fucking annoy you again, but that's Hollywood. But there's a middle ground!

[Hollow]

Right fuck that, Face/Off is fuckin amazing. What the fuck kind of world are we livin in, now, anyway?

Shit-sandwich! Jesus Christ that took the breath from me.

I thought Face/Off was and indeed is one of the very worst films.

John Woo totally misfiring on everything but the action...the leads...the cloying to the point of suffocation sentimentality.

Going back to the leads...two of the very worst Hollywood has ever had to offer, totally different sizes? How could anyone be fooled by a simple face swap?

This is going off a very bad memory from nearly 20 years ago...I bet it's worse than I remember it.

It's not The Killer is it?

[El Unicornio, mang]

How do you know if you're going to be ultimately annoyed until it ends? Some films are like that. Try watching Memento, it's entirely fucking annoying as nothing makes any sense as the narrative is out of sync, until there's a moment when you see enough pieces to put the narrative together, except they do so in an over the top gratuitous way with scene after scene stitching it together to make sure you understand exactly what the narrative is and thusly fucking annoy you again, but that's Hollywood. But there's a middle ground!

Well, if I'm enjoying something and it has an annoying ending I've still had a couple of hours of enjoyment. It's more often the opposite with me though, on the rare occasions I'm really disliking a film I'll often feel a sense of fulfillment and appreciation of it when it's over and I'm able to properly digest it. Breathless was very much like that for me. 

[Blumf]

I always assumed Face/Off was supposed to be a comedy. Was I mistaken? Because I found it pretty enjoyable and funny.

Christ, trying to watch it as a straight action thriller, it would be shit.

[East of Eden]

I was half-serious, half in jest, but I think something like The Cable Guy or James and Giant Peach are relatively dark, but not actual dark comedies.

More the fool me to be honest, because I watched The Cable Guy expecting a dark comedy, I should've looked into and realised it was a PG! The way I heard it talked about, I didn't think it was going to be as (almost) cartoonish and over the top, I was expecting something more drier and bleaker.

[DukeDeMondo]

I always assumed Face/Off was supposed to be a comedy. Was I mistaken? Because I found it pretty enjoyable and funny.

Christ, trying to watch it as a straight action thriller, it would be shit.

I think it's a bit strong to call it a comedy, but the tongue on it is certainly givin its cheek a good seein to.

Comparable to The Rock, or indeed Con Air. Grand craic, incredible set-pieces, careers along like nobody's business.

The last genuinely brilliant John Woo film, although there was a lot to like about Red Cliff.

[Steven]

More the fool me to be honest, because I watched The Cable Guy expecting a dark comedy, I should've looked into and realised it was a PG! The way I heard it talked about, I didn't think it was going to be as (almost) cartoonish and over the top, I was expecting something more drier and bleaker.

Yeah you have to remember it was a Jim Carrey movie before he started doing more serious stuff, he was Hollywood king of wacky kiddy films and it was his first step into doing that really but it's definitely a stupid comedy, just with dark elements. I still think the scene with him switching between personas at Broderick's parents house in Pictionary is wonderfully manipulative, or the scene where he beats the shit out of Owen Wilson in a toilet to the tune of Dizzy Gillespie's Salt Peanuts, at least it gave Bob Odenkirk and David Cross some cameos.

[Hollow]

I think it's a bit strong to call it a comedy, but the tongue on it is certainly givin its cheek a good seein to.

Comparable to The Rock, or indeed Con Air. Grand craic, incredible set-pieces, careers along like nobody's business.

The last genuinely brilliant John Woo film, although there was a lot to like about Red Cliff.

Yes but The Rock is badass, it just is and it has Michael Biehn...and Con Air is legitimately a funny film.

I think Face/Off is a confused and confusing mess...comparable more to Broken Arrow than those two films.

[DukeDeMondo]

Yes but The Rock is badass, it just is and it has Michael Biehn...and Con Air is legitimately a funny film.

I think Face/Off is a confused and confusing mess...comparable more to Broken Arrow than those two films.

Ah, I'd respectfully disagree with you there, sir. I don't think it has very much in common with Broken Arrow at all. I sort of half-enjoyed Broken Arrow, mind, but it's really not very good at all. Whereas Face/Off is very much very good at all, and that's all there is to it.

(I'm mouthin off all over this thread about Face/Off when I haven't seen it in about six years. Imagine the beamer I'll have on me if I watch it tomorrow and it turns out that no, it actually is rubbish, after all, and you've finally made a monkey out of meeeee. God. Thankfully that won't happen, because I'm right and anyway I'll be far too busy bein hungover tomorrow to worry about John Woo or any Woo else.)

[Hollow]

I think honestly all of Woo's Western work is totally sub what he's known for and capable of.

I've always really hated the way he wasted his time trying to fit in, when he had no chance of even properly learning the language at his age.

We could've had a few more Hong Kong classics like Hard Boiled and The Killer, instead of shit like Broken Arrow and Mission Impossible two.

[Steven]

(I'm mouthin off all over this thread about Face/Off when I haven't seen it in about six years. Imagine the beamer I'll have on me if I watch it tomorrow and it turns out that no, it actually is rubbish, after all, and you've finally made a monkey out of meeeee. God. Thankfully that won't happen, because I'm right and anyway I'll be far too busy bein hungover tomorrow to worry about John Woo or any Woo else.)

I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy and won't be going to the inevitable cunt-calling just yet, but it's rather difficult about this area as of course some people enjoy films ironically, and I think you say you're not doing that, but enjoying it as a serious action film, which of course is so over the top and bombastic you can't perceive as actually entirely serious either. It's a gray area as far as I'm concerned, if you enjoy it that's great, I just heard it was great as a serious action film, watched it and thought it was schlocky, stupid and hackneyed, and maybe that's more fool me as if I sat with some mates and beers and we watched it and took the piss it would be very enjoyable, whichever way you enjoy it, that's still art, isn't it?

[Hollow]

It's awful...duke was probably only a nipper when he liked it...I invite him to do as he says he might and rewatch it.

There is zero pathos and emotion in his western toss, people think the balletic gunplay was what was good about the HK films, it was good....bang bang bang...but it was the 'emotional content' as Mr Lee implored us to consider, that made them great.

[Hollow]

Watch it again...then watch A Better Tomorrow, that's what I'm talking about.

That's all I wanted him to do in America, show 'em how it's meant to be done, not just do a mangled crowd pleasing pastiche.

[Johnny Textface]

Yes Pulp Fiction is a bit shit.
But hey, it was the follow up to what could have been a 'one hit wonder', so it's alot like a pop record - give them more of what they want - funny dialogue, violence, twists, good soundtrack, returning actors[nb]like a pop record[/nb].. etc..

Jackie Brown, on the other hand, is utterly fantastic without trying too hard.

There's probably an age thing tied to this too. Pulp Fiction is a bit for the teens/nerds..
Without being pretentious in any way, Jackie Brown - is for AdUltZ.

We should do a poll for the best Tarantino's really. But the correct answer would be :-
1. Jackie Brown - Delivers what it's trying to do, and then some. Majestic film making.
2. Inglorious Basterds - best of both worlds.
3. Reservoir Dogs - Soundtrack, budget, gay overtones etc..
4. Pulp Fiction - Pop!
4. Django - Decent but spunks it's load far too soon. Di Caprio gets a pass as does GOGGINS.
5. Kill Bill - I HATE that it was chopped in half.
6. Other shit - I am still pissed that the the UK never got the proper Grindhouse experience due to skint cunts - err, rich cunts.

7. Other shhhhiiiiit

[DukeDeMondo]

Watch it again...then watch A Better Tomorrow, that's what I'm talking about.

I've seen A Better Tomorrow, Bullet in the Head, The Killer, Hard Boiled, so on and so forth, many times each, and I love all of them. I genuinely think that Face/Off is fit to sit alongside them, although it's tonally very, very different (well, maybe not in the case of Hard Boiled).

And I'm not enjoying it "ironically" either. On its own terms, as an extraordinarily enjoyable tongue-in-cheek action film with some truly incredible direction and choreography, it's a wonder of a thing.

In keeping with the overall themes of the thread, I did see it at a quite formative time, and the five star reviews and what not probably did influence me and continue to influence me.

Fuck it, I'm watching it again tomorrow, and I bet it's still brilliant.

As to Woo and the general decline in quality, I think it's less to do with him making the move to Hollywood and more to do with the fact that he just ran out of ideas and started repeating / parodying himself.

I mean it's not as if the film industry in Hong Kong, mainstream anyway, was any more accommodating than Hollywood when he was making the likes of Mission Impossible II or fuckin Windtalkers. There is the possibility that Hong Kong inspired him in a way that Hollywood didn't, but given the quality of Face/Off (and I tell you what, fuckin Hard Target), it's more likely that he just ran out of fucks worth giving.