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This is England '90

Started by BritishHobo, July 30, 2015, 07:53:47 PM

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monkfromhavana

I think we all know what happened to Combo though. It just wasn't shown. Even Combo knew with his "I don't wannnnna die" as the door slammed shut.

buzby

Quote from: imitationleather on October 04, 2015, 10:49:38 PM
I got the impression they were criminal underworld hitmen that Combo probably would have been aware of.

I thought they were NF/C18 types - the NF speech was being played over the scene and Combo seemed to know what the score was as soon as they appeared. If Combo renounced his racism in prison he probably made a some very nasty enemies who saw him as a traitor to the cause.

Nice to see that regardless of what the producer said, Meggy was still alive. Neil Bell (who played one of Sonny's goonies in Dead Man's Shoes) also popped up in the smack den too.

imitationleather

Quote from: buzby on October 04, 2015, 11:03:48 PM
I thought they were NF/C18 types - the NF speech was being played over the scene

Ah fair enough, I must have not noticed that.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: monkfromhavana on October 04, 2015, 11:02:49 PM
I think we all know what happened to Combo though. It just wasn't shown. Even Combo knew with his "I don't wannnnna die" as the door slammed shut.

Well I didn't know whether he was just being beaten and tortured or actually killed.

Dirty Boy

All three i would say, his terror was quite suddenly apparent when he saw them.

I think 88 was the best series. The other two were all over the place.

neardark

Quote from: up_the_hampipe on October 04, 2015, 11:07:33 PM
Well I didn't know whether he was just being beaten and tortured or actually killed.

I thought he was put in a crate that was going to be put into a car crusher. I've literally just invented that haven't I? Not sure why I thought that. I didn't think there was any ambiguity though really, he's dead.

monkfromhavana

I think Combo thought that he was just going to be done over a bit, not murdered in an abandoned warehouse.

And all because Milky couldn't/wouldn't forgive like the the others. FORGIVENESS.

I'm not sure that they were Combat 18 types killing Combo for changing his beliefs...I got the impression that they were just hired killers.

Dirty Boy

But why did he become hysterical when he saw them? He clearly seemed to recognise them. I think during the van drive he was expecting to be killed, but realised he was in for something much worse when the other guys opened the door.

neardark

So many proclamations of Shane Meadows' genius on Twitter. What is it about this series and/or him that warrants such effusiveness? I think that was probably the best episode of the four but was only good not great. Surprisingly anti-climactic I thought.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: neardark on October 04, 2015, 11:27:16 PM
So many proclamations of Shane Meadows' genius on Twitter. What is it about this series and/or him that warrants such effusiveness?

Because some people tend to exaggerate or summarise their thoughts, especially on Twitter. I think Meadows is a very talented film-maker, but his This is England TV spin-offs were flawed in many ways. I've just tweeted something to that effect, and I appreciate that it's as boring a statement as "OMG! Genius!!!", but I'm tired and I just felt like tweeting something about This Is England.

While it's certainly possible to have interesting, nuanced discussions on Twitter, I understand why people feel that, in the heat of the moment, it's easier to just say "Wow. That was brilliant. Shane Meadows is amazing!" than type several tweets offering a more balanced analysis.

MuteBanana

Quote from: Dirty Boy on October 04, 2015, 11:25:13 PM
But why did he become hysterical when he saw them? He clearly seemed to recognise them. I think during the van drive he was expecting to be killed, but realised he was in for something much worse when the other guys opened the door.

I guess because it suggests his fate was something Milky's family weren't prepared to do themselves.  Nobody calls in help for a beating. I was expecting them to throw him out a window when we got that shot of the outside of the building. I also would've liked to see Combo's death just so it was clear.

Kelly's time with her new friends felt like it was missing a scene or two. She was there and then just left with no fuss. When the guy who met her came across as a right cunt I expected a bit of drama leading to her deciding to go find the wedding.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: MuteBanana on October 05, 2015, 12:03:29 AM
I also would've liked to see Combo's death just so it was clear.

I think it would have been more suitable. We've seen a vicious racial beating and a rape very clearly. It didn't seem fitting to have his death implied behind close doors. It should have been shown in slow motion with swelling music playing over it.

rjd2

Quote from: up_the_hampipe on October 05, 2015, 12:13:30 AM
I think it would have been more suitable. We've seen a vicious racial beating and a rape very clearly. It didn't seem fitting to have his death implied behind close doors. It should have been shown in slow motion with swelling music playing over it.

This?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2qcbu26gs

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Hearing Combo screaming/whimpering "I don't wanna die!" was more powerful than any graphic depiction of his death could ever be. I thought they handled that perfectly.

BritishHobo

Just caned the whole thing in one go. Good stuff. It's made me want to give '86 a reappraisal, 'cos I thought the mix here of the lighter, dafter, warmer stuff, and the bleak drama (which I'd had a big problem with in '86) worked really well, made it feel full and complete - the stuff at the rave, and the weird pagan festival were good fun, and then Meadows delivers the dinner table scene, which I thought was one of the best moments of the whole 'franchise'. One of the most effective things about it to me was Shaun just sat on the end, crying. He only had one line, which was drowned out, but it gave a real sense of them suffering the pain as a group, which sums the whole thing up.

Few other things: I don't really remember Harvey from previous episodes, but he was a real nasty cunt, wasn't he? Were we supposed to like him? Really insidious, aggressive fucker. I was expecting Kelly's new home towards the end to be shown as a horrible fucking pit she realised she needed to escape from, but apparently it was supportive enough that she managed to kick the heroin with relative ease. Also a total lack of resolution between her and Gadget, which is bizarre given the sheer fucking vitriol in their last scene together. Thought he was great this series, really took me by surprise. Shaun too. And I've never really been able to get on with the character of Smell, but I really loved that crap confrontation at the end. She's actually kind-of brilliant.

BritishHobo

Oh yeah, and I was bemused by Woody not standing up to his parents at all after episode 1. I know they're largely meant to be comedy characters, but some of the stuff they did and said in the other three episodes was fucking ridiculous, and he just stood by, never bothering to intervene.

neardark

Quote from: BritishHobo on October 05, 2015, 07:10:56 AM
Oh yeah, and I was bemused by Woody not standing up to his parents at all after episode 1. I know they're largely meant to be comedy characters, but some of the stuff they did and said in the other three episodes was fucking ridiculous, and he just stood by, never bothering to intervene.

Woody turned into probably the worst character. Sarcastic sad-sack with early onset dementia.

jobotic

This is probably a stupid question, but I've only seen the film and a bit of this series, and not even the last twenty minutes of last night's but...

Ddidn't Milky say in the cafe that promises were made to family and friends when they thought he might be on his death bed? Promises by who and how can that fit with the theory that the blokes who killed Combo at the end were NF? You don't ask racists to avenge a racist attack? Like I say, I probably don't know of some reason that you do.

Gulftastic

Milky deserves to suffer. Beer glass on the felt. Cunt.

buzby

Quote from: jobotic on October 05, 2015, 09:09:18 AM
This is probably a stupid question, but I've only seen the film and a bit of this series, and not even the last twenty minutes of last night's but...

Ddidn't Milky say in the cafe that promises were made to family and friends when they thought he might be on his death bed? Promises by who and how can that fit with the theory that the blokes who killed Combo at the end were NF? You don't ask racists to avenge a racist attack? Like I say, I probably don't know of some reason that you do.

Milky's family (the main guy was his Uncle Rudy, who he was on the phone to at the end of the last episode) had made promises to get revenge on Combo for the attack. Perhaps they didn't feel like getting their own hands dirty, and if another group was looking to do him in, why should they? Maybe they appreciated the irony of handing Combo over to his 'own kind'. I don't think it would be that unrealistic for rival gangs do a deal for one to hand someone over the other was looking for.

Like I said, the NF speech being played over the start of the scene, Combo seeming to recognise his killers and the 2 guys having skinheads and wearing jeans and flight jackets definitely gave off the impression that they were NF types.

Further to this, in the third episode there was a shot of Combo looking at a photo of a black man. This seems to be a nod to Steven Graham's real life father which had been written into the script. If his NF ex-associates found out he was mixed race then there's another reason why they would be after him as well as whatever may have happened in prison.

Combo also  has a tear tattoo which usually means he has killed someone, so the other possibility is that he was handed over to someone who wanted revenge for that.

jobotic


thugler

Quote from: BritishHobo on October 05, 2015, 07:09:31 AM
I really loved that crap confrontation at the end. She's actually kind-of brilliant.

That was great, a mirror image of the one in the first episode.

Not sure if i believed kelly had really quit the H, felt ambiguous to me.

imitationleather

Quote from: thugler on October 05, 2015, 02:19:57 PM
Not sure if i believed kelly had really quit the H, felt ambiguous to me.

I agree. I think it was implied that where she was everyone was doing it. Didn't exactly look like the kind of environment you could go from being on the pin to not doing it for a few weeks.

BritishHobo

Shit, good point. Not sure why I accepted her word so easily after her openly lying to Harvey earlier in the episode about it being the first time.

buzby

Quote from: BritishHobo on October 05, 2015, 03:26:40 PM
Shit, good point. Not sure why I accepted her word so easily after her openly lying to Harvey earlier in the episode about it being the first time.

I think you were a bit harsh on Harvey too - he's hard, but I don't think he's necessarily nasty. He knew what the situation was between Kelly and Gadget, even if Gadget couldn't see it himself, and the resulting fight between them was basically telling Gadget the truth that he didn't want to face. Rembmer that he first appeared in the film as Shaun's bully, and in the previous series it had been revealed that his father physically abused him, so it's entirely understandable that he'd developed a tough side.

He was reluctant to let Kelly stay with them in the first place (he's a dealer himself, so I'm sure he would be able to tell Kelly was on something), and could see Kelly was basically using Gadget as a crutch. Also, as a dealer last thing he needed was a spiralling out of control junkie potentially bringing trouble to his door.

neardark

Quote from: buzby on October 05, 2015, 10:12:35 AM
Milky's family (the main guy was his Uncle Rudy, who he was on the phone to at the end of the last episode) had made promises to get revenge on Combo for the attack. Perhaps they didn't feel like getting their own hands dirty, and if another group was looking to do him in, why should they? Maybe they appreciated the irony of handing Combo over to his 'own kind'. I don't think it would be that unrealistic for rival gangs do a deal for one to hand someone over the other was looking for.

Like I said, the NF speech being played over the start of the scene, Combo seeming to recognise his killers and the 2 guys having skinheads and wearing jeans and flight jackets definitely gave off the impression that they were NF types.

Further to this, in the third episode there was a shot of Combo looking at a photo of a black man. This seems to be a nod to Steven Graham's real life father which had been written into the script. If his NF ex-associates found out he was mixed race then there's another reason why they would be after him as well as whatever may have happened in prison.

Combo also  has a tear tattoo which usually means he has killed someone, so the other possibility is that he was handed over to someone who wanted revenge for that.

Think you're looking into it too much tbh. I don't think he recognised the men. They were probably irrelevant. He just realised he was going to be murdered.

jobotic

Actually thinking about it (and I was knackered which is why I missed the last twenty minutes), wasn't it an anti-racist speech playing, and an NF one at the beginning?

imitationleather

It was definitely the NF speech delivered by Frank Harper from the This is England film at the start. I didn't notice what was playing over Combo getting carried off.

It was an anti-apartheid speech from 1960 by Hugh Gaitskell playing over the Combo scene, apparently.

Custard

Oh man, that was brutal. Seems pretty cut and dry that Combo was murdered too

And I too think we were meant to be left guessing if Kelly had really kicked the habit. Though I imagine she will do, now she's over the horrible stuff and back with her family. I think her dancing with Gadget shows they are mates again too

But that's life innit, cuts off before you see absolutely everything resolved. Though I was kinda hoping Meadows would do a Six Feet Under, and show their entire lives in a montage. Including Combo's, as he sets off for his new life in Hawaii