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Under-rated Artforms

Started by Harfyyn Teuport, February 14, 2004, 03:08:33 PM

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Harfyyn Teuport

I enjoy reccomending films, music and literature to friends, and then being able to talk about said works with them. I managed to get a few people into Kurosawa, Boards Of Canada, and Kafka respectively. There are some people however who reject reccomendations from me when it comes to less esteemed art forms.

Most notably Comics. Now, I'm not a comic apologist, I recognise entirely the vast reams of shite that populate much modern and classic comics, and the fact that the art form hasn't exactly been used to create 'art' in the true sense of the word a lot of the time. I'm also not a huge comics buff, I'm relatively young so I'm coming into this game late and only really skimming the surface of what I like and dislike. However, I have found much work in comics that isn't just comparable to film or literature as an artform but excedes its capabilities.

Predictably, I'm talking about Alan Moore's stuff, particularly Watchmen, but also work such as The Dark Knight Returns and Maus. These limited selections - please add some others if you feel so inclined, I'd like a good reccomendation -  aren't great just because they combine great story, great art, great dialog and - heaven forbid - impressive musings on politics or society. They're also great because they do it in a way that is unique to comics. Watchmen, for example as the work I'm most familiar with, is an infinitely self contained document that can be experienced almost in meta-time, where you can hold one page open and track back with your thumb to find another page and compare the recurrence of images. Where single panels can in three lines both advance the chapter and then, once viewed in retrospect be seen to encapsulate the entire book in a way you hadn't at first grasped. Where three or more narratives can be combined in one panel or where multiple people can be speaking simultaneously and still be understood, while background occurences completely change the meaning of what each of them say.

Comics can, obviously, create great art, in the truest sense of the word. I'm not sure where I would place Watchmen against Great Expectations, or Picasso's Guernica nor The Beatles' White Album. But I'm happy with that, all I want is the possibility of comparison.

What annoys me is people who dismiss a comic on the grounds that it is a comic, and as such is obviously inferior as an artform. Even people who have come to know and respect my opinions on works they greatly admire assume I must have some sort of flaw to my character for admitting such low brow shite for consumption.

Anyway, this thread is not just about Comics, but all under rated artforms. I suppose Games are another one, as are various strands of modern music and contemporary art. But maybe not wrestling.

Any thoughts?

bill hicks

Amen to that. My personal fave is From Hell. The depth of that work, the unending layers that you can unearth in several reads of it, is just astonishing.

If this was a just world it would have won 'proper' literary awards and be feted the world over. Instead it can only be bought in the larger comic stores and ended up neutered by Hollywood.

Give me any Booker winner over the last ten years and put it up against From Hell and there is simply no contest.

big dogs cock

What about advertising? It's so easy to get bogged down in the morals of it and the product in question that it's hard to analyse it properly, but some advert's, and forms of, are great little pieces of art that get no credit due to basically political beliefs, which you would hope people would leave aside when any other form of art was approached. Dunno, I suppose it's more of a science than an art.  

I don't believe this at all by the way, but I know from experience that by far the best way to wind up an art student who is irritating you is to say '..well of course the only useful art is advertising'. Watch them go!

Edit: Anyhow, when I think about it it's just a platform for art rather than an art form isn't it? I'll shurrup.

Harfyyn Teuport

Yeah, the whole Hicksian concept of artists being off the artistic roll call once they advertise seemed a bit strange to me, and was always used as an attack on Moby around about the time of his Play album, every single track of which was licensed for use in advertisements. While I myself would be reluctant to license any art I made purely for the sale of other products, it's hard to take the anti-ads elite seriously when they write for journals which derive a large amount of their cash from advertisements, or non-subscription internet sites which are entirely funded by the most pervasive and uninspired advertisements known to man, the flashers, banners and pop-ups.

Although as you say, ads are not really an art form, it's a good point because it's a similar sort of immediate negation of a work's merit based on assumption. Whether that assumption be Comics are childish and basic, or that you are above advertising other people's products, and as such have the right to slate others who do so. It's that which annoys me, the arrogance and close-mindedness of such petty absolutes.

Ahhh but to truly appreciate good art is to not care whether others appreciate it or not. Ahhh.

Harfyyn Teuport

Yeah, I suppose, but I love being able to discuss the merits of the art I love. The initial premise of this site was for discussion of the art of Chris Morris, and at some time everyone on here has indulged in a good gush or slating of whatever tv show, film, album or piece of literature has caught their eye that week. In my real life that discussion pervades a lot of conversation, and I enjoy being able to dissect and theorise on philosophy, politics or literature in the company of people who've read or listened to the same things I have. Having your thoughts vindicated by other people agreeing, or having your mind completely changed about something by someone else's insight into it.

After I read Watchmen, I felt like I was having the door shut in my face by an intelligentsia who refuse to listen. I desperately wanted to show off all its tricks and intricacies to friends, but when I offered to lend it to them, some looked at me as if I'd asked them to rape their parents. Some did read it, and enjoy it, so it's not like they're all a bunch of pretentious dicks, but that refusal from some really pissed me off, and I think it's indicative of a wider trend.

For instance, Anne Fine was on Richard & Judy or some such arguing against Video Games during the latest Daily Mail style furore over a violent computer game. Her point was that children would be better off with a good book and that games were intellectually and artistically bankrupt. I don't play a huge amount of games, but this attitude really angered me. For a start, how many games has Anne Fine played? None, I'd bet. That's like me slagging off books having never read one. She mentioned the game in question, Hooligan I think it was, in reference to ALL games. I could make a similar argument about Music being devoid of worth with reference to the Cheeky Girls. Games aren't just for children, for starters, but who's to say that games and books are mutually exclusive, anyway? And games are excellent practise for hand eye co-ordination, problem solving and besides that, the many possible outcomes of a game can work wonders for a child's imagination. Games like ICO, Windwaker, MGS, Half-Life et al are proof of Gaming's ability to create art, but are glossed over by those who wish to surfeit their own ego by pissing on 'lower artforms'.

daveytaylor

Pop Videos...

I think they are one of very very very very few outlets for a filmmaker to make money and pursue an artistic vision.

Brigadier Pompous

Quote from: "big dogs cock"What about advertising? It's so easy to get bogged down in the morals of it and the product in question that it's hard to analyse it properly, but some advert's, and forms of, are great little pieces of art that get no credit due to basically political beliefs

An adverts purpose is to flog some product.  If the occasional one ends up with any artistic merit, this is entirely orthogonal to its purpose, and likely to be entirely accidental.


big dogs cock

There's an art to communicating an idea or concept in a short attention pulling space of time, and it's not accidental. And what about public information ad's, a piece of wonderful art that's used to promote aids awareness for example, does that satisfy the moral police? Anyway it's another debate, and if you hadn't quoted me out of context I do go on to concede it's more of a science and a platform than an art form in itself Brigadier.

Quote from: "davetaylor"Pop Videos...

I think they are one of very very very very few outlets for a filmmaker to make money and pursue an artistic vision.

Yeah, I was reading Will Selfs', (and I agree with him usually) review of trainspotting in 'feeding frenzy' the other day and this line mightily pissed me off :

"As Lou Reed crooned 'perfect day' and Mark Renton subsided through the floor on an opiated magic carpet I began to feel as if I was watching an extended pop video rather than a work of filmic art".

Wha...how can it be an extended pop video rather than a piece of filmic art?

Advertisers as a rule, rip off other peoples ideas and put them into a context to make the product they are selling look more attractive. I can`t remember the last advert I saw that wasn`t either naff (Mike`s Carpets!) or a copy of someone elses idea. The one that always springs to mind is the Viz top tip that was blatently taken from its pages then 'transformed` into an ad for McDonalds. This is nearly always true of TV adverts.
The exception to this, in my mind at least, is the tobacco magazine ads that were forced to be inventive to get round the sticky problem of not being allowed to mention their product. Nice photos, original ideas but of course devoid of any merit due to the fact that there sole use was to peddle sticks of misery and death to toddlers!
The less said about radio and internet ads the better.

chand

Quote from: "Harfyyn Teuport"Her point was that children would be better off with a good book and that games were intellectually and artistically bankrupt.

Because of course, it's not like there's ever been any rubbish, vapid or offensive books written. Right?

big dogs cock

Kenneth Yeah true, although i'm sure Mike would be gutted to hear his artistic vision dissed so callously...

Mikes carpets, Armley road Leeds, it's scary there's a bit of my brain being used up knowing that ad, at no point in my life have I ever been in a position where i've needed to know where a carpet shop is.

The last great advert that springs to mind is the, was it Honda, advert with the sequence of car parts clanking into each other and setting things off. Maybe it was only great because it ripped off someone elses idea and spent lots of corporate cash on a grandiose version to make a company not a creator look good, but I enjoyed watching it. Shit, i'm quite shallow aren't I...

Smackhead Kangaroo

I think the thing about comics is the connotation to crap like Garfield. and general kiddieness.

I'd nominate animation.

It seems like there's some sort of invisible division of animation where you eithe have arty stuff which is teribly tedious and sopmewhat annoying.

Or children's cartoons.

granted I can't think of anything at the moment that really fulfills the potential that is there. Anime is a step in the right direciton, but I rarely find 'arty' artfulness in it.

actually I recall watching Disney's Sleeping Beauty and it was surprisingly arty. Particularly that bit where the fat women grant her three wishes.

daveytaylor

Quote from: "big dogs cock"Maybe it was only great because it ripped off someone elses idea and spent lots of corporate cash on a grandiose version to make a company not a creator look good, but I enjoyed watching it.

The thing is that most 30 second car ads cost upwards of £2,000,000 to make. The company were really happy because that ad only cost them £600,000

Fucking immoral, isn't it?

23 Daves

Performance Poetry.  As with any artform, the vast majority of the material that worms its way into mainstream consciousness is either fluffy and humorous (John Hegley), or downright lowest-common denominator.

There's some fucking amazing performers out there who have to be heard to be believed - Mike Diss, Miguel Algarin, Bob Cobbing (RIP), Rachel Pantechnicon, Paul Birtill (sounds rather like Half Man Half Biscuit in spoken word form), Roddy Lumsden.  And yes, there are others of a lesser 'good' quality too.

It was part of the late sixties underground before falling by the wayside and evolving and existing in its ignored state.  Whenever the BBC or TV give it any exposure, they always get the 'comic' brigade in to tell some rhyming jokes, or a few 'urban' poets.  The more modern ones - critiquing society with ever-changing rhythms, slogans, stories and abstract ideas and even multiple voices - just get ignored.  They are all skint.  They all carry on anyway.  It's the last true underground in my book.

Interestingly enough (as an aside) Phil Oakey was on the radio this morning talking about how hairdressing was a great future artform.  "Hairdressing is one of the last things you can do as an artist without compromising your vision to corporates", he wittered, somewhat incorrectly.  Tell that to Jane who works at "Cut Above" and would be slaughtered for coming up with with any radical New Romantic styles, Phil.

butnut

Quote from: "aaaaaaaaaargh!"National anthems

No- they're virtually all shit. And the reason is - because they seem to have to be written for the line up of a (western) military band. At least many countries' flags give a vague impression of their cultural background.I mean, if you imagine the Brazilian national anthem - you'd think of sambas, congas, maracas, guiros, excitement, women dancing on the beach... (sorry) - and yet when you hear it, it's just another dreary military band playing another dreary piece of cack. They always make me think of empires and imperialism. (And I know there's a practical reason why it's always on military bands - because all of the European ones began like that, so that all the new countries had to write theirs for the same line-up).

The only one I've ever liked was the old Soviet one - that seemed to be genuienly stirring. But the bastards got rid of it.

Tokyo Sexwhale

Pornography.  I may not know about art, but I know what I like.

El Unicornio, mang

i also nominate comics. Akira by Katsuhiro Otomo is the single greatest accomplishment by a human being I have ever witnesse, the art is unbelievable, the best I've ever seen, and the story complex and intelligent. Sadly, it doesn't get the recognition that the likes of 'War and Peace' and 'CAtcher in the Rye' get because "it's a comic, that's kids stuff"
The fact is, there is no limit to how good a story or how good artwork can be in a comic book.

Ronster

Another couple of good examples on the comics theme would be Murder Me Dead and the Stray Bullets stories....both read like a good quality movie with some wonderful 'shots' and the black and white art work just add to the atmosphere of these genuinely moving and sometimes disturbing stories - I say take a spin and see if you win

Santa's Boyfriend

I'd nominate two of my favourites, Signal to Noise by Neil Gaiman and Dave Mckean, and White Death by Robbie Morrison and Charlie Adlard.  Two great stories on the theme of knowing you're going to die.

Harfyyn Teuport

Ha, bit morbid there, Santa's. I'll note those for reading in the future. As for Akira, is that related to the famous film/the basis of the film/based on the film/coincidentally titled and completely unrelated to the film?

With regards to Animation, Belleville Rendezvous was simultaneuosly arty, clever, funny and easy to watch. I thought it was great that it could have been made outside of a major studio like Dreamworks or Disney, turns out it took the best part of a decade to make. Must have been heartbreaking for them when you factor in the leaps they had to make just to keep up with technology every couple of years. And I suppose The Simpsons is generally regarded as the greatest sitcom of all time, although the actual animation part of the show isn't particularly groundbreaking at least it's a sign that cartoons = kids doesn't *always* apply.

As for performance poetry, I have some Alan Moore - seriously, shut up about him will you? - and Mark E Smith. And some of Lennie Bruce's stuff walked that line as well I suppose, beat poetry and the like. It certainly wasn't conventional standup in any case. The challenge for any performance poet is to make their piece sound a little less pretentious than performance poetry usually does. If not to alleviate the suffering of listeners, than at least to ammend the stereotype of the beret wearing, slow-talking dipshit surrounded by groupies clicking their fingers after every haiku.

Purple Tentacle

Quote from: "butnut"
Quote from: "aaaaaaaaaargh!"National anthems

The only one I've ever liked was the old Soviet one - that seemed to be genuienly stirring. But the bastards got rid of it.

The Red Army Choir singing the Soviet National Anthem could turn John McCarthy communist if played at sufficient volume, a magnificent piece of music. (I'm not a communist by the way).

It was commissioned by Stalin in 1944 to replace the "Internationale", as he felt that Soviet soldiers would respond better to a USSR-specific anthem rather than one espousing a worldwide ideology.

Interestingly Putin has actually brought it back. The tune is the same as the 1944 Soviet Anthem, but with

"Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
To Communism's triumph lead us on!"

changed to

"Sing to the fatherland, o free!
Fraternal peoples the union of age-long,
By ancestors this wisdom is people!
Ours Glorious land! We are proud of you!"

although Putin has also re-introduced the Red Star to Russian tanks and planes, so his motives could be percieved as being a little sinister, the krazy war criminal.

Johnny Yesno

I know very little about comics but I sympathise with your viewpoint Harfyyn. People are like that about games too, even though there are games like Myst and Riven that really get you thinking just like a good book or film.
I don't think adverts are quite the same, though. One of the things I like about the art I'm into is that it is inexplicable. Adverts do not have this quality - the reason they exist is to say "Buy this". There is no mystery.

Vermschneid Mehearties

Games. (But then I would say that because I 'fu(|<in' bum LOL NO games')

Examples such as Otogi, Panzer Dragoon Orta and Ico spring to mind. Just sheer works of art (not to mention gaming quality).

Other examples such as Silent Hill and (at the time) Alone in the Dark create fantastically spooky settings.

I guess what I admire most is making a 3d interactive environment that looks and plays stunningly. I don't think creating that is worth being patronized by anyone, whether they like games or not.

Enema art.  I'm sure I saw it on C5 one night.  A huge, hairy naked guy had a quart of blue poster paint poured up his arse. He then carefully mounted a step ladder, squatted over a large sheet of white paper and then let rip. I think he called the resultant painting 'Pebbledash at one'.