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'Metal Gear?!' Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Started by brat-sampson, August 27, 2015, 10:18:01 AM

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popcorn

#210
Quote from: Consignia on July 12, 2017, 07:32:44 PM
No, you don't need to do those ones. You can just do the generic side missions instead to unlock the storyline missions.

Quote from: Thursday on July 13, 2017, 06:36:18 AM
That's what's so bizarre, there's no need for it to be "chapter 2" there's no need for the hard versions of missions, which many will do thinking they have to.  Just fucking stupid.

I'm now on chapter 2 and this is the latest thing that's confusing me. I just want to press on and finish the main game, so thanks for the tip-off - I would have presumed you have to do the hard-mode missions otherwise.

Why are there story-essential missions in side ops, though?

And why is it you can skip main missions at all? I got all the way to chapter 2 before I finally went back and did the early "Backup, Back Down" mission (the one where you have to blow up vehicles in a time limit), because I didn't develop the necessary weapons to do it for ages.

edit: looking at the list of Chapter 2 missions now. So I don't have to do any of the missions that are just hard-mode versions of Chapter 1 missions? That includes the last three missions. Is the Quiet Exit mission the last proper story mission? edit 2: I see this is discussed earlier in the thread, OK!

Zetetic

Quote from: popcorn on July 15, 2017, 06:21:26 PM
I just want to press on and finish the main game
This is going to be difficult given that the main game isn't finished.

popcorn

Quote from: Zetetic on July 15, 2017, 06:41:48 PM
This is going to be difficult given that the main game isn't finished.

I now am struggling to figure out when I can stop playing it.

Zetetic

Quote from: popcorn on July 15, 2017, 06:21:26 PM
Why are there story-essential missions in side ops, though?
Partly because it allows those missions to be more surprising, because it's a neat way of blurring the two and so both acknowledging the gaminess of the whole arrangement while also giving a bit more sense of actual events happening.

QuoteAnd why is it you can skip main missions at all?
Because some aren't strictly dependent on one another, and because
Quotebecause I didn't develop the necessary weapons to do it for ages.
it enables a little bit more flexibility in how people approach the game.

I do find it odd that these are problems that people have with the game - that it fails to sufficiently aggressively and quickly propel the player through its fairly silly plot.

popcorn

Quote from: Zetetic on July 15, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Partly because it allows those missions to be more surprising, because it's a neat way of blurring the two and so both acknowledging the gaminess of the whole arrangement while also giving a bit more sense of actual events happening.
Because some aren't strictly dependent on one another, and because it enables a little bit more flexibility in how people approach the game.

It seems so wonky, though. Being able to complete missions in different order is nice, but I surely shouldn't be able to complete the first chapter without completing all its missions. Otherwise why make them missions? It just makes me wonder: am I "supposed" to do this mission? If they're inessential, put them in the side-ops list. It's just more confusion and vagueness.

Zetetic

I guess the question I'd have in response to that is - so what?

Which I think probably comes from me not understanding well enough what people are trying to get out of the game and how they wish to play it to that end.

popcorn

Quote from: Zetetic on July 15, 2017, 06:49:38 PM
I guess the question I'd have in response to that is - so what?

Which I think probably comes from me not understanding well enough what people are trying to get out of the game and how they wish to play it to that end.

I didn't enjoy the first few hours of MGS5 at all, but I stuck with it, and I'm glad I did because I came to really enjoy a lot of it. But I feel that you shouldn't be able to get 50 hours into a game - even "complete" it - and still be confused by its basic menus and systems.

popcorn

#217
edit: fucked this up didn't I.

popcorn

Right, finally finished this monster. Jesus. Jesus. I haven't sunk that much time into a game for a decade or something. I only did 50% of it, according to the menu screen, but I probably put about 70-80 hours in. Here are assorted points.

It's a very, very slow burn, with one of the harshest learning curves in an AAA title I can remember. The prologue in the hospital is boring and overlong, and teaches you nothing whatsoever about the game. (Then you have to do the entire thing again in the final mission, fucking hell.) I spent the first 10 hours overwhelmed by menu options and completely failing to infiltrate anything. I very nearly abandoned it on several occasions. This was not the MGS I remembered.

Gradually, though, I began to understand things, and once you've got a few better weapons and some buddies and a feel for how things work, it becomes very rewarding and very rich. The depth here is impressive. For about 30 hours, I found it very hard to stop playing. Everything was ticking over nicely. I had become a stealth master, armed to the teeth.

Then you fight the big metal gear and you get one ending, but it carries on. It was all downhill from here, for me. The focus goes out of the window, and the structure becomes even more confusing. My god, the final Quiet mission, when it's you vs a billion tanks, and you can't quit out of the mission to equip better guns - I was stuck on that for almost a week. I must have restarted it over 100 times. It's the kind of egregious difficult spike that shouldn't exist any more. By the time the game actually ended for good I was sick to the teeth.

People talk about the cut content, but I think if anything they didn't cut enough. There's no focus. There are twenty endings.

I said before how I don't like the management stuff, and I still think you could cut or automate all of it. Remove the entire mother base, cut the staff management and combat deployment, and treat everything else like levelling up in an RPG. Capture guards and complete missions and your GMP and development ability improves. Simple. Keep the gameplay on the battlefield, not fucking menus.

I'm not sure the open world structure really works. I found myself craving some more linear sections, more interiors. Remember how MGS3 combines the organic open areas with more interior sequences? Some more of that would have gone down a treat here. The downtime between missions, where you're just running between mission markers in bland, open areas, add nothing. Instead things could have been broken down to separate, isolated areas you're deployed to, which would have allowed for more resources spent on making them a bit different.

The story and characters are all deeply boring. Quiet is objectionable on a thousand levels but I was pleased when she turned up and you could ogle her tits because at least it was a bit of personality, a bit of levity, after a very dry first 10 hours. Giving her a torture scene was where I absolutely drew the line, though.

Christ, I'm exhausted just trying to make sense of all my feelings about this thing. What a piece of work.

brat-sampson

Yup, the second 'half' is disjointed as all fuck, and the final 'mission' doesn't even carry an ending. The one with Quiet and all the tanks is optional too. Mother Base timers are incredibly long for ones that don't even tick down when you're not playing and there's an insane amount of unnecessary stuff you can choose to unlock.

Despite allllll of that it's still got the best stealth gameplay of anything I've ever touched, but yeah that's ensconced in a half-baked unfinished story, mini-base madness and a back-half structure falling apart at the seams.

popcorn

Quote from: brat-sampson on July 25, 2017, 02:42:28 PM
The one with Quiet and all the tanks is optional too.

Which I didn't get. It isn't clear at all what's optional and what isn't. The side-ops ones highlighted in yellow are story-critical, so I interpreted that to mean you have to do them if you want to complete the story (and therefore the main game). You also are forced to do side ops in the second chapter in order to unlock more main missions; seemingly you just do them at random and it unlocks stuff.

It's completely baffling and encourages pretty much random player behaviour. I spent almost as much time reading guides for this game as I did playing it.

I sorely wish I'd never done that fucking billion-tank side op, because it took hours of my life. That wasn't a fucking side mission, goddamnit, it was huge. Why was it a side op?

Quote
Despite allllll of that it's still got the best stealth gameplay of anything I've ever touched, but yeah that's ensconced in a half-baked unfinished story, mini-base madness and a back-half structure falling apart at the seams.

It feels like a lot of really good gameplay systems that didn't find a proper home. It's interesting, how it's all driven by systems... like, MGS3 had a thing where if you blew up an ammo hut early in the game the later soldiers would have fewer weapons, or something. And that's cute but in a short, linear game like MGS3 it's so limited it's almost wasted. But in MGS5, when it's this sprawling 100-hour epic, it makes more sense, all these cycles going round and round. But they fucked up everything else.

Thursday

But then the Quiet Tank missions is one of the few scraps of story in the 2nd half, and you do get locked into it.

As you say completely bizarre. Make it a story mission, (although let you quit out of it and don't have it so the tanks  one-shot you) call the hard mode versions of missions side-ops instead. Also... don't call it chapter 2, there's little reason structurally why it makes sense to call it chapter 2.

I mean there were obviously production problems, and they obviously wanted more time and weren't given it. Which while Konami are dicks, seems fair enough to me considering it already had numerous delays and an insane amount of money poured into it. They have the right to put their foot down at some point, and the final release date had been locked in for a while.

I mean having to cut that big final mission was obviously a big problem, but the bigger problem with the end of the game was... confusing labelling. A completely self-inflicted problem that could have been solved so easily.

popcorn

Completely agreed.

Quote from: Thursday on July 26, 2017, 05:10:34 PM
I mean there were obviously production problems, and they obviously wanted more time and weren't given it. Which while Konami are dicks, seems fair enough to me considering it already had numerous delays and an insane amount of money poured into it. They have the right to put their foot down at some point, and the final release date had been locked in for a while.

I mean having to cut that big final mission was obviously a big problem, but the bigger problem with the end of the game was... confusing labelling. A completely self-inflicted problem that could have been solved so easily.

Yeah, my sympathy is with Konami, really. The thing we got is obviously truncated, but I can't picture a longer version of the game that's actually better.

That final cut mission, for example - I don't know about you but I don't give a shit about Eli, and venturing to this one-off jungle island setting sounds weird. It doesn't sound like an ending - more like the conclusion of one a thousand boring, muddled episodes.

Mister Six

This is now going for $3.99 (yes!) on the PS4 US store, and might be going for a similar amount in the UK. Haven't been fucked with MGS since I gave up on MGS 3 for being a tedious load of old wank, but I'd spend more than this on a pint of beer these days, so I can't really think of a reason not to give it a crack.

GoblinAhFuckScary

MGS3 is great for all the reasons it's tedious


Bazooka

Quote from: Mister Six on July 25, 2020, 01:57:39 AM
This is now going for $3.99 (yes!) on the PS4 US store, and might be going for a similar amount in the UK. Haven't been fucked with MGS since I gave up on MGS 3 for being a tedious load of old wank, but I'd spend more than this on a pint of beer these days, so I can't really think of a reason not to give it a crack.

Yeah I got it on PS sale for 3 english pounds a few months back, I had it physical on PS3 but for that price I couldn't say no on PS4, it's due another play through.

But you don't deserve money for saying that about MGS3.

Chedney Honks

Quote from: Mister Six on July 25, 2020, 01:57:39 AM
This is now going for $3.99 (yes!) on the PS4 US store, and might be going for a similar amount in the UK. Haven't been fucked with MGS since I gave up on MGS 3 for being a tedious load of old wank, but I'd spend more than this on a pint of beer these days, so I can't really think of a reason not to give it a crack.

The story is perfect for unimaginative people to point at and say 'Kojima 😂😂' to inspire phatic hoots from other dullards. It's incredibly convoluted, overly detailed and yet still has large chunks missing, but there are also some incredible set pieces and moments which really stuck with me.

That said, you can completely ignore all of it and enjoy the greatest stealth sandbox ever created by an incomparable distance. From a gameplay perspective, it is genuinely peerless.

Timothy

MGS 5 is one of the best games on the PS4 imo. And for that price.... don't sleep on it.  Totally worth it.

Thursday

Honestly, I know this will invite derision, but the story is the best part of the MGS games. Yes they're all overwritten bollocks, lots of it is incredibly cringeworthy. everything goes on 5 times longer than it should, and Kojima has incredibly problematic attitudes with women" 4 in particular is genuinely terrible for long sections, but it still ends beautifully.  5 just wasn't the same, great game to play, but it was sorely missing in all those elements and so didn't really feel like an MGS games.

But you have to start from Metal Gear Solid 1, of course it's going to be confusing if you're jumping in at the middle.

popcorn

Quote from: Thursday on July 25, 2020, 09:30:30 AM
But you have to start from Metal Gear Solid 1, of course it's going to be confusing if you're jumping in at the middle.

Yeah, if you're doing MGS 1-4 you need to start with MGS1.

But MGS5 has so little story you can play it without knowing anything whatsoever. In fact I don't remember a single story event from that game.

JamesTC

Quote from: popcorn on July 25, 2020, 08:03:39 PM

But MGS5 has so little story you can play it without knowing anything whatsoever. In fact I don't remember a single story event from that game.

Has one of the biggest twists in the entire series:

It turns out the Big Boss you are playing as (the one who will later be killed by Solid Snake in Metal Gear 1) is a fake Big Boss that is set up to allow the real Big Boss to act in secret (and be defeated by Solid Snake in Metal Gear 2).

popcorn

Quote from: JamesTC on July 25, 2020, 09:43:42 PM
Has one of the biggest twists in the entire series:

It turns out the Big Boss you are playing as (the one who will later be killed by Solid Snake in Metal Gear 1) is a fake Big Boss that is set up to allow the real Big Boss to act in secret (and be defeated by Solid Snake in Metal Gear 2).

yeah but who fucking cares? it has so little relevance to the game.

Osmium

Bought it for £4 in the current sale after playing it for fuck knows how many hours on the ps3, probably never play it again. The best game. Couldna gie a fuck aboot the story. The best game.

Timothy

Quote from: popcorn on July 25, 2020, 08:03:39 PM
Yeah, if you're doing MGS 1-4 you need to start with MGS1.

But MGS5 has so little story you can play it without knowing anything whatsoever. In fact I don't remember a single story event from that game.

The opening scene and first mission of Phantom Pain was soooo good.

I really enjoyed the story.

Pink Gregory

People harped on about Ground Zeroes being poor value but it's basically perfect as a self-contained thing.

Capt.Midnight

Quote from: Osmium on July 26, 2020, 02:35:08 AM
Bought it for £4 in the current sale after playing it for fuck knows how many hours on the ps3, probably never play it again. The best game. Couldna gie a fuck aboot the story. The best game.

A steal at that price. Tempted to replay it soon, the control system and world ambience are top notch. An infuriatingly tiny amount of missions however, given the size of the world.

Pink Gregory

What annoyed me is the lack of MGS difficulty settings; at that point it becomes kind of a toybox rather than a puzzle. 

evilcommiedictator

I got MGS5 during the Steam sales, and I'm up to the but where we start plotting, I've seen the new mech and about to rescue the scientist, but damn, it feels entirely memory-based (apart from resources blocking weapons I'll never use, sure)

popcorn

Quote from: Timothy on July 26, 2020, 08:34:07 AM
The opening scene and first mission of Phantom Pain was soooo good.

I actually really disliked that bit. It has nothing to do with the game proper. There's that sequence where you have to sneak under some cubicles or something to teach you how stealth works, but it actually has nothing to do with how stealth works in the game at all, so it isn't teaching you anything. It's really odd.

I hated the first two or three hours, and the last two or three hours, then had a whale of a time during the 30ish hours inbetween.