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New Star Trek TV series

Started by Deanjam, November 02, 2015, 04:58:55 PM

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Famous Mortimer

I finally got round to watching the last episode last night. No idea why I waited this long. I think it would have worked better as a one-off, then moving on to something completely different, maybe keeping a few characters around; but it was fine. Much like the first season of "Homeland", I was hoping Michelle Yeoh would pull the trigger on that bomb and really change the stakes - and I find "everyone join together or I'll destroy our home planet" to be a weird motivator. What if the bomb malfunctions on a random Tuesday afternoon and kills billions?

Hopefully they'll bring back Prime Lorca for season 2, as well. And, I don't know, have a series which is a bit more Star Trek-y? Like's been said, is it so impossibly difficult to make a show that's in the tradition of those other, incredibly popular, well-loved, shows? Hire writers who are able to tell self-contained stories? Is there absolutely zero market for this sort of show any more?

mothman

I think there is - and more importantly, there are plenty of TV execs who can still only think in terms of easily-syndicated zero-arc episodic television. And so there is actually still plenty of TV just like that. The problem is though that a) very little of it is any good, and b) the serialised arc- heavy TV model is heavily associated with what constitutes "good" TV these days, because all the best modern or recent TV shows have incorporated it.

Personally I don't see a problem with the "new" television. Just because there were some good Trek TV shows made back when the "old" television model held sway, doesn't mean you can only make good Trek TV using the old ways. Part of what made VOY and ENT so generally bad is that it was trying to put the genie that DS9 had let out, back in the bottle. Everything about the way VOY especially was made screamed episodic TV, when the very concept - a lost crew trying to get home - had a fundamental arc built in. ENT in the other hand did give in to the new reality eventually with the Xindi-arc season 3 and the fourth season of nothing but mini-arc shows. It was too little too late obviously, as its premature cancellation shows; but I'll bet most people remember - and like - much more of s3 & s4 than they do s1 or s2.

olliebean

If you want something more Star Trek-y, there's always The Orville.

Alberon

If you want more Star Trek: Voyager with jarring jokes and a death-mask faced captain.

Malcy

I preferred The Orville to Discovery but like I've said before if your looking for Prime Star Trek then read the post Voyager books or play Online. DSC isn't for everyone and I can appreciate both points of view. Those alternatives have givwn me the further adventures I wanted, not DSC.

Famous Mortimer

I'm just suggesting that, if they're making multiple new series, then at least one of them could be in the tradition of the classic series. While I enjoyed Discovery just fine, it didn't remind me a great deal of Star Trek; I appreciate for most new fans, classic Trek is very old indeed, but I think it worked - and I thought the new movies were mostly a waste of time. mothman makes a good point about the model for TV being different now, but...ah, never mind. No sense banging on about it.

I like the characters, though, and hope the second season is at least as good.

Malcy

Yeah there's no reason episodic TV can't work still. There's probably more of them than arc heavy shows.

mothman

Nono, you have a point and I'm definitely not having a go. and it's possible I have a skewed perspective - I've been arguing about discussing Star Trek on the Internet for a long, long time. So, when VOY and ENT were on, it was at a time when there was first DS9 and B5, and then all the "new television" shows came thick and fast - Sopranos, 6ftUnder, TheWire etc. So to us, the Trek we were watching started to feel really stale. We were almost certainly too close to the subject matter, being continuity-obsessed nerds - but it wasn't so much "how many photon torpedoes/shuttlecraft/crew does Voyager have left?" more the big questions like "given how far of that 70,000ly they've travelled, why do they still say they're 'lost in the Delta Quadrant' when really they should be in Beta by now?" (we soon learned not to care about how an isolated ship managed to stay so spotless and replenished, since it was obvious the producers didn't care either).

So, TL;DR to someone like me the notion of going back to that is unappetising, but I'm biased. It could work, I'd probably still watch, but somehow I don't think it's gonna happen. Famous last words...

Famous Mortimer

That was what I never got about Voyager. X-Files was on at the time, and had settled into a "a few episodes a season for arc-y stuff / lots of standalone episodes" routine; it could have done the same and at least given the impression of forward movement. Or, had one episode a season where the entire crew beat the shit out of Neelix, to relieve stress. God, I fucking hated Neelix. The impression I got from my limited viewing of VOY was that they were in a different galaxy and it'd have taken some special thing to get them home, not that they were just a really long way, but one conceivably navigated in a small number of years. But I'd stopped watching by that point. DS9 was my jam and I guess something so irritated me in an early episode of VOY that I never went back to it.

There's a doc on Youtube about the initial creation of TNG, when the writers complain about Roddenberry's insistence on the conflict being between the ship and an outside force, not between the characters on the ship. The soap opera interpersonal conflict was much easier to write, but what they did worked. It being a show of ideas, at its best, and not just shooting and romance, is Star Trek for me. But if I just say "the show sucks because it's not what's in my head" I'm little better than those Star Wars weirdos who sent that scroll to Disney saying why they were right and Disney were wrong.

To your point, I was having a discussion about "where are the janitors on Starfleet ships?" with my Star Trek viewing companion, and their thought was "there has to be jobs for the dumb-dumbs". Perhaps in the post-scarcity future, education and sexual health has improved to the point there aren't tons of them around, and I imagine 24th century roombas take care of most of that sort of thing. Same with repairing the ship. Actually, why the hell am I justifying the choices of Voyager? This is the show that had them go past warp 10, devolve into lizards, have lizard babies, leave them on a planet then magically heal themselves and sod off.

By the way, my mate Al went to Riverside, Iowa the other week, and it really has steered into its status as the future birthplace of Captain Kirk.




mothman

Basically, they started in "The Caretaker" as being 70,000 light years from home. With no other opstions, they set off to get there the long way - but as Voyager's maximum warp meant they could travel at best only about a thousand light years, er, a year, they were looking at a multigenerational trip. Over time they shaved bits off that in various ways, including the Slipstream drive (that in the show worked only internittently, and had problems; in post-VOY fiction, Starfleet appears to have perfected Slipstream tech to the point it's becoming the go-to method of propulsion, with no mushroom involvement). Given they weren't going to go straight through the centre of the galaxy, they had to go round it and from where they started that meant the Beta Quadrant (the Federation is split between Alpha and Beta, but more Alpha; the Romulan Star Empire is in Beta).

I sometimes think (may even have said so here, so soz if so) that the biggest mistake the show ever made was putting the Maquis in Starfleet uniform. That wasn't the only way the potential for some great conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis crews wasn't explored (and was instead actively squandered), but it's emblematic.

Other things the show got wrong: rubbish alien antagonists early on, mercifully soon disposed of - the Kazon, that lother race that harvests other species for spare parts whose name I can't remember. The almost total amnesia that developed regarding the crew's backstories and families back home (Kim's girlfriend, Janeway's fiancee and dogs...). The seeming unwillingness to build a secondary cast of crewmembers, instead using a revolving door of extras (there used to be a great website called Roll Call, that catalogued them all; it concluded that by the end of the show, we'd seen so many, we had in theory seen every member of the crew); so you had people like Joe Carey who was once upon a time a contender for the Chief Engineer slot, and a rival for Torres - instead, he disappeared and was only brought back for a late 7th season episode... in which he was killed. Earlier eps established he had a wife & kids back home: were they mentioned at all when he died? Guess. And I could go on...

Malcy

I have, had maybe, the Voyager Companion and it listed all the crew and I think which episodes they had been mentioned. Killing Carey off after bringing him back was so stupid.

mothman

I was fairly certain that Roll Call no longer existed, so I went looking and sadly it appears to be true. Shame, the author put a lot of work into it, especially getting screengrabs of extras at a time when the eps weren't usually (or legally) available online to get captures from. I actually did something similar later, cataloguing how many MACOs there were on ENT (way too many, was the short answer, mosytly they were stuntmen and women given how enegetic their roles were), but that site is a decade defunct.

Much of Roll Call's work is... replicated... here: http://www.loony-archivist.com/lowerdecks/crew.html

mothman

Some generally non-spoilery snippets from the SDCC panel happening right now:

1. Discovery s2 to air in early 2019, but in December there will be four minisodes called "Short Treks" which will feature, among other things, Saru's backstory.
2. The Enterprise crew wear the same style uniform as the rest of Starfleet, but in the three division colours. I'd like to think there would be an explanation but there probably won't be.
3. Spock WILL be "seen." No idea what that means.
4. A teaser trailer has just been aired at the convention, so hopefully it'll be online soon.

Malcy

Quote from: mothman on July 20, 2018, 09:56:10 PM
Some generally non-spoilery snippets from the SDCC panel happening right now:

1. Discovery s2 to air in early 2019, but in December there will be four minisodes called "Short Treks" which will feature, among other things, Saru's backstory.
2. The Enterprise crew wear the same style uniform as the rest of Starfleet, but in the three division colours. I'd like to think there would be an explanation but there probably won't be.
3. Spock WILL be "seen." No idea what that means.
4. A teaser trailer has just been aired at the convention, so hopefully it'll be online soon.

Thanks. Hoping they give some more details on the other shows in production.

mothman

5. Dr. Culber will be in s2... somehow...
6. The original "Number One" (as seen in "The Cage," and originally played by Majel Barrett) will be in s2, played by Rebecca Romijn.
7. Vague responses regarding the return of Jason Isaacs as Captain Lorca (or the 'original'/Federation version thereof).
8. Saru's homeworld might be seen, so we might get to see whatever the predators are that have put the wind up the Kelpians at the evolutionary level.

Quote from: Malcy on July 20, 2018, 10:21:46 PM
Thanks. Hoping they give some more details on the other shows in production.

Nothing yet!

Malcy

Just came to post the above! Spock is on a 'leave of absence'. Have a feeling he will only appear over the view screen. Probably as a cgi young Nimoy.

mothman

I get the idea there may be contractual reasons that might prevent Zachary Quinto doing it (even if he wanted to, which isn't certain) and I suspect they'd be afraid it'd confuse people by having someone associated with the Kelvinverse appear in Prime material. So, yeah, given digital de-ageing and virtual characters are all the rage, I'd imagine you're right.

mothman

That's it from the panel. One thing though: if you're a redshirt, then s2 is apparently not gonna be the best place for you.

The trailer should be up here soon (and all over the place shortly afterwards).

No info on the new shows, sadly.

olliebean

Quote from: mothman on July 20, 2018, 10:34:24 PM
The trailer should be up here soon (and all over the place shortly afterwards).

It's purporting to be there now, but you can't watch it unless you're in the US or have a suitable VPN. And if you do manage to watch it the video quality is horrible. So horrible that I got about half a minute in before deciding to wait for a more watchable version.

Alberon

Morons put it up region locked again.

Here it is on youtube.

https://youtu.be/cZeDzvgFOTA

Phil_A

Huh, so the next season is going to be "The Search For Spock", then?

mothman


Ant Farm Keyboard

Quote from: mothman on July 20, 2018, 10:30:46 PM
I get the idea there may be contractual reasons that might prevent Zachary Quinto doing it (even if he wanted to, which isn't certain) and I suspect they'd be afraid it'd confuse people by having someone associated with the Kelvinverse appear in Prime material. So, yeah, given digital de-ageing and virtual characters are all the rage, I'd imagine you're right.

At one point, all of Viacom assets had been incorporated into Paramount, but for a few years, there's been a succession war brewing among the two lieutenants of the current owner, Summer Redstone, and each of them got a share of the empire, with Paramount and CBS being two legally different entities. Paramount is basically the film division (but it's allowed to produce TV shows based on their film catalog), and inherited all assets about the Star Trek film franchise, including the reboot, while CBS is now in charge of TV production (plus the occasional film), which allows it to handle all TV shows related to Star Trek. If there's a conflict between the two of them over Star Trek, Paramount has the upper hand. For instance, CBS isn't supposed to launch a Star Trek TV show around the time Paramount has scheduled to release a Star Trek film, as the TV show may steal some of the thunder for the film.

mothman

Yeah, it's all a big mess. I know there have been recent attempts to "merge" the elements of the franchise under one roof, but it all got a bit acrimonious. Meaning I don't think there's anything specific barring Quinto playing Spock on TV, provided Paramount agree - or if there is, it's nothing that couldn't be resolved through negotiation. But right now Paramount might not be willing to say yes with or without negotiating.

I wasn't aware that CBS couldn't debut a show near the release of a movie though? Is that a new thing? Because TNG, DS9 and VOY all came out pretty close to Voyage Home, Undiscovered Country and Generations respectively?

Malcy

Quote from: mothman on July 21, 2018, 11:32:28 AM
Yeah, it's all a big mess. I know there have been recent attempts to "merge" the elements of the franchise under one roof, but it all got a bit acrimonious. Meaning I don't think there's anything specific barring Quinto playing Spock on TV, provided Paramount agree - or if there is, it's nothing that couldn't be resolved through negotiation. But right now Paramount might not be willing to say yes with or without negotiating.

I wasn't aware that CBS couldn't debut a show near the release of a movie though? Is that a new thing? Because TNG, DS9 and VOY all came out pretty close to Voyage Home, Undiscovered Country and Generations respectively?

I think that's just a recent thing since the movies and tv series got split. A portion of the budget for TNG S1 went towards The Voyage Home.

Ant Farm Keyboard

The split happened in 2005.

There were preliminary talks for a new series after Enterprise was over, including one for a show that would have taken place further down the timeline, after TNG or Voyager, but they were put into hiatus because the JJ Abrams reboot was supposed to be the big relaunch event.

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Federation

In the eighties and nineties, film and TV were handled by different units at Paramount, but there were some connections. Most of the cast from TOS had a guest appearance in some TNG-related project, they used the same people for sets and props to save on costs, Michael Dorn had a small part in The Undiscovered Country, etc.
Because of the split and the arbitration that applies specifically on Star Trek, we have different legal entities for TV and film, and film has the upper hand on any decision that relates to the films, including scheduling a new TV show.

mothman

Aha.

Anyway, images now available. And... I don't like the new uniforms. Be careful what you wish for, etc. But they look really uncomfortable, and the colours feel off:





The blue is too dark, the red is a tad too bright, and the gold, well, that's not gold, is it? It's banana fucking yellow. Maybe it's just the way the scene is lit, I dunno. If they were always going to do this, then why even bother with the all-blue uniform with gold/silver/bronze division highlights?

Alberon

There are shots in the trailer of Pike in the Discovery uniform so it doesn't look like it'll be around for long in the season. Also, looking back at TOS' two pilots the collar is wrong, the black collar didn't appear until the series proper.

One uniform continuity 'error' I suppose Discovery can be forgiven is their insignia. Back in TOS that arrowhead was just for Enterprise crew. Every other ship had its own.

In general I hate prequels. Here it ties Discovery up in knots with very little obvious benefit.

mothman

The producers keep saying that this season will make it clear how DSC fits into canon and continuity. The three big questions have to be:

1. Why do the uniforms (and some tech) appear so inimical to that established as having existed in 2255 and 2265?
2. Why does the Enterprise differ so much from how it looked in 2255 and 2265?
3. Why is the spore drive never used not mentioned subsequently? I'm guessing it will be considered too impractical and dangerous, possibly in ways they've not, heh heh, discovered yet. Otherwise you'd think Starfleet would have at least one testbed for emergencies and rescues. They could send it to the Delta Quadrant to bring the crew of Voyager back, for example.

Cloud

I remain optimistic after the S1 finale.  I thought all the slightly conceited "just trust us, we're playing the long game" kind of stuff did eventually pay off and it looked like it was finally going to become more "Trek like"

I don't think "Trek like" to me necessarily means every episode has to be self contained slice of life stuff with no arcs or consequences.  Part of what really irked me about VOY as others have mentioned is after DS9's long term storytelling here you had a show with great potential for more of that and it did "reset button plotting" so overtly that it felt like it was trolling the fans on purpose.  In the end my headcanon was that replication technology was far enough along they could make new shuttlecraft pretty quickly and replace bits of the hull etc.  Even that the Voyager that came home was not necessarily the Voyager that originally got lost, if you follow that side of the Ship of Theseus debate, as it got shot up so many times that probably all of the hull has been replaced over time.  But that just settled the "why do they have infinite shuttlecraft they keep crashing and a perfect ship still" question and didn't resolve how badly the slice of life thing came across to me after DS9 on a ship with a natural long term arc.  Big things would happen and have zero consequences and be forgotten next episode.  Also how literally everyone in the Delta quadrant was the aggressive "shoot first ask questions later" type, but that's a whole other issue...

It's more of a Star Trek "spirit" I'm looking for.  Optimism, hope for the future.  Humanity being bros.  Going around making things better and spreading positive values and shit.  Less of the "we're at war and we need to play dirty" sort of stuff that can hopefully just be attributed to evil Lorca.  It can still follow long term arcs.  (I quite liked the DS9 model... long term arcs but with plenty of individual slice of life type episodes as well.  The trick is doing it without them coming across as "filler").