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A Nightmare On Elm Street (series)

Started by Famous Mortimer, November 07, 2015, 11:01:01 AM

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Famous Mortimer

I just watched "Freddy's Dead" for the first time, and it's spectacularly bad, not bad in the same way the other slasher sequels were, but bad in "let's have a bit set inside a really bad computer game" and "let's ignore our own continuity" ways.

I know 3 is the best regarded one (because it's really good), but I really like 4 as well (even though star Lisa Wilcox was a bit of a charisma vacuum). So...er...discuss your favourites? Or just let this thread sink like a stone, whatever.

I own the DVD box set but it's region 1 and is stored away, so I downloaded the full set. This torrent included one of the fan films ("Krueger: A Tale From Elm Street") so I might give them a bash too, when I've had my palate cleansed with the genuinely rather good "New Nightmare".

surreal

There's a 3-hour documentary about the series on Netflix called "Never Sleep Again".

First part of it is actually on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mEORQOC4Z8

DukeDeMondo

Freddy's Dead is utter fuckin shit from start to end. Dream Child is halfways decent, Dream Master is sort of ok, but the first three and New Nightmare are only genuinely good ones. Not even countin Freddy Vs Jason, although it's a lot of fun.

A Nightmare On Elm St is a properly mesmerisin thing. Incredible. Freddy's Revenge is The queer horror film far as stuff folk might've seen in the cinema is concerned, and 3 is as brilliantly constructed a demented fantasy picture as any I've ever seen.

Good Stuff.




DukeDeMondo

I'll add my yap to surreal's, there, Never Sleep Again is wonderful. The star of Freddy's Revenge is also producin a documentary not only about that film, but about bein a big auld poof in Hollywood in the 80s. Wasn't much steam, by all accounts.

Famous Mortimer

I did a Kickstarter or something for "Never Sleep Again", as I had the DVD with a Heather Langenkamp signed poster, but I lost it :( I only saw the bits about the first two films as well.

Glebe

I remember watching this as a kid. The first episode is Freddy-based just to draw people in, then it's cheeseball non-Freddy tales bookended by Fred. Toss.

DukeDeMondo

Utter shit. I'm sure to someone somewhere the notion of Freddy with a Nintendo Powerglove seemed like the right old craic altogether. Maybe it would've been, if the film hadn't been put together by imbeciles.

I suppose the 3D bit at the end has some sort of charm, but just fuck off, the lot of it.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Glebe on November 07, 2015, 12:05:05 PM
I remember watching this as a kid. The first episode is Freddy-based just to draw people in, then it's cheeseball non-Freddy tales bookended by Fred. Toss.
That would be "Freddy's Nightmares", Mr Glebe, this is about the movies, although I realise I left the thread title open to interpretation. But yeah, that was rubbish though, wasn't it?

Johnny Textface

The film junk podcast boys just released a premium show where they discuss and rate them all. It's decent.

Glebe

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on November 07, 2015, 01:38:26 PMThat would be "Freddy's Nightmares", Mr Glebe, this is about the movies, although I realise I left the thread title open to interpretation. But yeah, that was rubbish though, wasn't it?

Facepalm, innit, lol, ffs.

Steven

Any Hellraiser talk to go in here, also?

A year or two ago I re-watched Hellraiser 2: Hellbound, which I love as much as the first (I'd argue parts of it are even scarier.. Leviathan, Lord of the Labyrinth.. Dr Channard.. fuck me "And to think.. I hesitated", it scared the fuck out of me as a kid) and looked up Imogen Boorman because I thought she's quite pretty in it, she hasn't worked for fucking years and has obviously gone off the rails a bit, poor old girl.

DukeDeMondo

I like Hellraiser II a lot, in fact I watched it again only yesterday, but it is a fuckin mess, all the same, and nowhere near to approaching what makes the first one so brilliant. Chokin on ideas an full of striking imagery, but there's also a good bit of dung in there. Incidentally, since Never Sleep Again was mentioned up there, Leviathan, a similarly in-depth documentary about the first two Hellraisers, is absolutely worth a watch. Four hours the fuckin thing runs on for.

Steven

Quote from: DukeDeMondo on November 07, 2015, 10:52:39 PM
I like Hellraiser II a lot, in fact I watched it again only yesterday, but it is a fuckin mess, all the same, and nowhere near to approaching what makes the first one so brilliant. Chokin on ideas an full of striking imagery, but there's also a good bit of dung in there. Incidentally, since Never Sleep Again was mentioned up there, Leviathan, a similarly in-depth documentary about the first two Hellraisers, is absolutely worth a watch. Four hours the fuckin thing runs on for.

I'd agree it's a mess, I love all that Heirnomous Bosch sort of surreal horror of craziness, but there's enough interesting details in the collage to focus on without trying to step back to judge the entire painting as a whole, though I think making Pinhead be a sort of good guy vs Channard doesn't quite work. The vague implication of Leviathan as some form of Lovecraftian Old One entity, without any context or explanation I did like though, it's better left to your own mind to conjure up what the fuck he (it) is about. Pinhead is so focused on in the sequels you don't remember that the Cenobites are barely in the first one, they're more of a troupe with Pinhead only being their mouthpiece, but is raised to prominence as a horror character like Freddy in what came later.

Oh and thanks a lot for reminding me of that Leviathan documentary, I remember seeing some trailers and some future release date for it and being anxious to see it, but completely forgot about its existence until now! Another to go on my watch list.

DukeDeMondo

Quote from: Steven on November 07, 2015, 11:05:25 PM
IPinhead is so focused on in the sequels you don't remember that the Cenobites are barely in the first one, they're more of a troupe with Pinhead only being their mouthpiece, but is raised to prominence as a horror character like Freddy in what came later.


Oh yeah, absolutely, the first is all about Frank. Jesus, that incredible stop motion sequence that ends with that brilliant Bacon scream business. Jesus oh.

great_badir

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on November 07, 2015, 01:38:26 PM
That would be "Freddy's Nightmares", Mr Glebe, this is about the movies, although I realise I left the thread title open to interpretation. But yeah, that was rubbish though, wasn't it?

The video trailer (which appeared on just about every 18 rated film released on VHS in the late 80s) was pretty good, though.

I've always had a soft spot for the second one, even though it is shit.  Although it does have that genuinely great shot where Freddy enters reality from the dream world, jumping through the french door window.

The rest, even the first one, I don't really care much for.  I think the idea is much better than the execution.

DukeDeMondo

Quote from: great_badir on November 07, 2015, 11:20:38 PM
I've always had a soft spot for the second one, even though it is shit.  Although it does have that genuinely great shot where Freddy enters reality from the dream world, jumping through the french door window.

I don't think the second is shit at all. It's the weakest of the first three, but it's still really fuckin good.

great_badir

Quote from: DukeDeMondo on November 07, 2015, 11:24:38 PM
I don't think the second is shit at all. It's the weakest of the first three, but it's still really fuckin good.

It's cheap (despite having twice the budget of the first), badly acted, mostly shot like a TV show, it introduced the humour which quickly became its downfall, and the whole homoerotic sub-text thing...(rolls eyes)  Plus, as pretty much every Jack Sholder film seems to do, it runs out of budget about three quarters of the way through.

I always thought the posters were much better than any of the films they were promoting.

DukeDeMondo

Quote from: great_badir on November 07, 2015, 11:37:38 PM
and the whole homoerotic sub-text thing...(rolls eyes) 

What's eye rolling about that? It's not like the market was flooded with queer horror pictures at the time.

Quote from: great_badir on November 07, 2015, 11:37:38 PM
I always thought the posters were much better than any of the films they were promoting.

Indeed, Graham Humphries who produced those posters is a friend of mine, his work is fuckin amazin. I was at the launch of his book a few nights ago in the Proud gallery an seein that artwork for Evil Dead, NOES etc up close was a fuckin thing an a half.

great_badir

Quote from: DukeDeMondo on November 07, 2015, 11:47:42 PM
What's eye rolling about that? It's not like the market was flooded with queer horror pictures at the time.

Sorry, I realise I didn't explain myself very well there - the eye roll is very specifically aimed at the constant toing and froing of the "is it or isn't it?" question and the number of times the people who made the fucking thing have changed their minds about whether it was intentional or not.  It's worse than whether or not Deckard is a replicant.

DukeDeMondo

Quote from: great_badir on November 07, 2015, 11:50:59 PM
Sorry, I realise I didn't explain myself very well there - the eye roll is very specifically aimed at the constant toing and froing of the "is it or isn't it?" question and the number of times the people who made the fucking thing have changed their minds about whether it was intentional or not.  It's worse than whether or not Deckard is a replicant.

Ah right, ok. Well personally I think it's blindingly Queer, whether they intended it or not. I find it hard to believe anyone could have directed that leather bar scene without realising what they were doin. I mean Mark Patton was and is gay, an he clearly felt it was a queer film. And it is.

Steven

#20
Quote from: great_badir on November 07, 2015, 11:50:59 PM
Sorry, I realise I didn't explain myself very well there - the eye roll is very specifically aimed at the constant toing and froing of the "is it or isn't it?" question and the number of times the people who made the fucking thing have changed their minds about whether it was intentional or not.

That's going to be a tough one, what with formal analysis.. did someone intend it, or was it a subconscious influence that crept in without their knowledge? Also, it's probably more important to look at what they said before, and directly after release, rather than the years of mythologising and re-assessments, where people blur things and aggrandise.

I mean Tarantino's metaphor analysis for Top Gun in Sleep With Me is exactly parodying these kinds of interpretations. I mean, it makes total sense of the story, but was it intended to be a metaphor? And with Cruise in the starring role and all the weirdness that comes with him, sheesh. The thing is, if it was a subversive attempt to make a big gay Hollywood blockbuster, if the writer intended it, you'd have to have a lot of the production in on that foreknowledge too, to get all those scenes playing that notion right.

Steven

Quote from: DukeDeMondo on November 07, 2015, 10:52:39 PM
Leviathan

Watching this now, and Imogen Boorman does turn up in it, so at least she's still functioning, fuck - but those eyes - I can see something horrible lurking behind them. Child abuse or something I'm guessing.

Mini

Is Freddy's Dead the one where Alice Cooper plays Krueger's evil step-dad? Utter shit. The original, Dream Warriors and New Nightmare are the good (brilliant) ones I reckon.

Mister Six

Quote from: Steven on November 07, 2015, 11:57:12 PM
That's going to be a tough one, what with formal analysis.. did someone intend it, or was it a subconscious influence that crept in without their knowledge? Also, it's probably more important to look at what they said before, and directly after release, rather than the years of mythologising and re-assessments, where people blur things and aggrandise.

But then you have to put those remarks in the context of the 1980s, a time when America and American culture was far less gay-friendly than it is now. Even if that subtext was intentionally inserted into a film by the director, would he have made this known to the producers and the other staff? And even if he did, would they have wanted that promoted in media of the time? Would the studio have wanted the sequel to Nightmare on Elm Street to be known as "That Gay Horror Movie"? Would they have wanted to potentially scare away the mainstream audience that made the original a success?

Steven

Quote from: Mister Six on November 08, 2015, 02:43:44 AM
But then you have to put those remarks in the context of the 1980s, a time when America and American culture was far less gay-friendly than it is now. Even if that subtext was intentionally inserted into a film by the director, would he have made this known to the producers and the other staff? And even if he did, would they have wanted that promoted in media of the time? Would the studio have wanted the sequel to Nightmare on Elm Street to be known as "That Gay Horror Movie"? Would they have wanted to potentially scare away the mainstream audience that made the original a success?

I don't know the answer. But there is a whole underworld of using metaphor in art to hide what you're really trying to say, if the intention was to make a kind of gay big budget film - it may have been a sort of unspoken open secret among certain people in the crew, if only for the controversy aspect. The problem for me, with something like Tarantino's hilarious rant about Top Gun is, the initial writers for that film may not have intended such a metaphor, but you can always take material and adapt it for the screen in a way to get across an entirely different intended message, directors like Kubrick did so with the material he picked out. So later on in the production someone could have tinkered with elements to tell a second different story underneath the overt main narrative, but it's sort of a maintained in-joke for their own amusement or politics, with maybe others sussing or being let in on the secret. Trouble is that Top Gun clip is so heavily edited to fit exactly with Tarantino's subtext, it's reduced down to the major sexual bullet points and comes across as almost entirely overt, but in the context of the film it's quite subtle and only people with a certain mindset would pick up on it. Seeing as Hollywood is as perceived highly liberal, gay and permissive, it wouldn't be a staggering notion that there would be many sympathetic views for such metaphorical projects.

I'm no film buff though, this is all just guesswork!


Famous Mortimer

To bump this, I think part 2 was designed from the beginning to be a "gay" movie. But I could well be wrong.

I just watched "Freddy vs Jason" (fine film, surprisingly) and something popped into my head. When he was alive, Freddy was all about the little kids. But when he dies, even after he takes his revenge out on the Elm Street parents, he still goes after teenagers. His tastes seem to age up by 5-10 years after he's killed.

SavageHedgehog

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on November 22, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
To bump this, I think part 2 was designed from the beginning to be a "gay" movie. But I could well be wrong.

From memory, and my understanding, the writer knew it was "gay", as did some of the crew like the production designer, but the director didn't.

I'm not sure if I'd say I want to defend Freddy's Dead, but I will say if I wanted to watch one of the sequels, New Nightmare aside, it's the one I'd watch. I didn't care for it as a teenager slasher fan, but now I kind of like that it takes the "Funny Freddy" angle as far as it could possibly go, and I like its unique Twin Peaks via Looney Tunes feel. 2 to me really does just seem like a cheap cash-in; the reason the "gay subtext" gets so much attention is probably at least partly because there's so little else going on. 3 (which I revisited after Craven died, with the two he directed) is OK but quite messy. 4 is just kind of bland, and 5 feels like a heavily compromised attempt to return to something a little more artistic and cerebral, which has some very cool moments but isn't holistically compelling. I did like Freddy Vs Jason at the time, the remake less so.

For what it's worth though, I remember from flicking through his autobiography about five years ago that Robert Englund himself considers Freddy's Dead the low point of the series.

Repeater

Watched them all recently. Thought the remake was good. New Nightmare is boring pish. 1 & 3 rule. The rest are mad. Just mad films.

Brundle-Fly

I find it amusing at how slightly podgy Pinhead has become by the penultimate movie in 2005, This notion of him scoffing Monster Munch, wandering around the corridors of Hell whilst waiting for someone to open the that bloody box.

Steven

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on November 22, 2015, 02:31:25 PM
I find it amusing at how slightly podgy Pinhead has become by the penultimate movie in 2005, This notion of him scoffing Monster Munch, wandering around the corridors of Hell whilst waiting for someone to open the that bloody box.

I went through them all chronologically about 5 years ago, which was the fucking ond set in space? Bloody hell!