MST3K - Coming back via Kickstarter

[Famous Mortimer]

And I thought Weinstein was regularly the Cinematic Titanic MVP, so it's a real shame he's not involved either.

[Spiral King]

The more I read about the other old MST3K staffers denying any involvement, the more I realise that they were screwed over in the recent buy out. As little as a year ago, both Beaulieu and Weinstein played Crow and Servo for Turkey Day 2014... so, this has to be a recent money issue. At least, for the Cinematic Titanic alumni. Nelson's statement comes across as "same as it ever was".

[Bhazor]

There's definitely the smell of bad blood about this. You'd think after a decade Mike and Joel would have made an appearance on each other's show(s) at some point by now. But they seem to go out of their way to avoid collaborating. I know they've both gone to the same conventions and yet were not seen together.

Mike's general tone at this point seems to be that he's just glad to be shot of it. Every interview I've seen he comes across as completely happy with his own little niche he's carved. While Joel comes off a little desperate, admittedly I never saw much Cinematic Titanic but did it bomb? Certainly this pitch and his intention to be "hands off" comes across less like a confident return and more like bailing out. A new 3 episode mini series purely as a means to get ownership of the original seasons and start getting the royalties again.

[Phil_A]

Yes. Much bad blood, much bitterness hidden with humor and then just dissolving back into bitterness. They are just incredibly polite and too Minnesotan to attack each other THAT much. I've done some interviews but it kind of takes YEARS for some of the ice to thaw and such a project would take a few more years to be thorough enough. I'm sure it'll happen one day, a lot of us definitely were supremely warped by this show during our impressionable years enough to pull it off.

I think it definitely became apparent how factionalised things were once Joel and Mike had launched very similar projects within a year of each other, and you had the all the original MST3k performers on one side and Mike, Kevin & Bill on the other.

(And Jim Mallon doing his shit flash cartoons on his own, but no-one cared about that.)

[Alberon]

Mary Jo Pehl is the only one I can think of that has done both Cinematic Titanic and Rifftrax, though I don't think she's done any with Mike on the latter she has done a few with his wife.

[Famous Mortimer]

Mike's general tone at this point seems to be that he's just glad to be shot of it. Every interview I've seen he comes across as completely happy with his own little niche he's carved. While Joel comes off a little desperate, admittedly I never saw much Cinematic Titanic but did it bomb? Certainly this pitch and his intention to be "hands off" comes across less like a confident return and more like bailing out. A new 3 episode mini series purely as a means to get ownership of the original seasons and start getting the royalties again.

http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=17340.0 is the original thread about it - I'd forgotten how tough it was to get Cinematic Titanic shows back in their earliest days. They built no momentum - whether through stuff like the above alienating all their non-US fans, or through never coming close to their own initial promise, which was a show a month.

It's a shame Joel doesn't want to be involved, more of a shame no-one else appears to be involved, so we've got to really hope that decent people get hired for this.

[Skip Bittman]

Cinematic Titanic did best as a live show, especially on tours doing several different movies to keep things fresh. The scripts really came alive in front of a crowd and peppered with improv and blown lines resulting in much mirth and audience amusement... no wonder they started recording the live shows and releasing those, much better than the studio recordings! It was just too difficult wrangling everyone spread around the country pursuing different work, really. But I'm super grateful that I managed to catch all the movies they did live!

[great_badir]

While you're obviously a fine CaBber

Hey, thanks!

you are wrong

Oh.


Admittedly it's been a few years since I've seen the Manos episode.  I'm not saying it's bad - it's MST, and there's no such thing as a bad MST episode (although I still struggle to get through those early improvised ones) - just that there are plenty of better ones.  In my opinion.

[clingfilm portent]

I agree there are better episodes, but I still think Manos is a classic. The host segments are flawless, the Hired! short is great, and the film itself is obviously a uniquely weird experience.

I think there are other films covered by MST3K that are of a similar calibre though. So bad they're almost anti-films; Monster-a-Go-Go and Beast of Yucca Flats spring to mind.

[Bhazor]

The whole Coleman Francis trilogy is gold. Especially fond of Red Zone Cuba just because its the bleakest film they ever did. Though admittedly they did cut out the rape scene. One of the strange things about Rifftrax is how they can't edit the grim scenes out of their commentaries. So you end up with them watching the ten minute Aushwitz opening of X-men with lots of awkward hmmming and silences. Meanwhile in Twilight there's lines like "I think we could of got the gist of that story without the gang rape."

Y'know thats just a line I never expected to hear from Tom Servo.

Getting back on topic.

Big update on kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k/posts/1413188

Big takeaway for me? Fully 25% of their initial target is just paying for shipping and manufacturing their merchandise. Which is such a classic Kickstarter fuck up I'm stunned they walked in to it.

I'm also still not sure I buy the claim "We were always meaning to change the cast every few years".

[newbridge]

Even as an enormous MST3K fan, Rifftrax and Cinematic Titanic never worked for me, so I fear any attempt to recreate the MST3K magic simply by having the same name again will fail.

[Spiral King]

Interview with Joel on Vox. He seems to be planning on approaching ex-cast/crew members with suitable monetary offers after they hit their initial goal. Regardless of this, Trace is still adamantly denying any sort of involvement on his Twitter. Mike's hinted that if enough coin was on the table, he'd be willing to come back.

Kevin Murphy has stayed surprisingly silent about the Kickstarter. Dunno what that means, if anything!

[dr_christian_troy]

Big update on kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k/posts/1413188

This leaves me a bit more optimistic, really. For all intents and purposes, Joel is being realistic but also pretty open-minded about it. Perhaps it's a timing thing, too - if this happened, say, in 15 years time, there'd be less concern about the original cast coming back, but because they're mostly still riffing in their own time at the moment, it's all a bit in the middle. Honestly though, if Joel can 'regenerate' the show, and it can last for a long time with the occasional cast change, I say good for him. It's an evolving (and maybe one day bankable) franchise, at the end of the day. Ultimately, the only real worry is the quality, in terms of comedy, and with that, we can only wait and see.

[Famous Mortimer]

I always wondered why another channel never brought it back. Possibly there were legal issues between Mallon and Hodgson that put people off? But in an era of lots of places and a desire for new content, a show which (rights issues aside) was pretty cheap to make and lasts two hours (with ads) would seem to be a no-brainer.

Looking back at the 2008 thread, I rather enjoyed Rifftrax at the time. It was a combination of a rabid fanbase on their forums (try even the mildest criticism of any of their riffs on there, an environment where it's difficult to improve because everyone thinks you're perfect) and weak material that caused me to drift away over the years. With no characters to play, it felt...more out of touch? I don't know. And the jokes felt samey too. How many times did I hear them say "Scene!...Scene?" when the film would linger on something too long?

[newbridge]

Looking back at the 2008 thread, I rather enjoyed Rifftrax at the time. It was a combination of a rabid fanbase on their forums (try even the mildest criticism of any of their riffs on there, an environment where it's difficult to improve because everyone thinks you're perfect) and weak material that caused me to drift away over the years. With no characters to play, it felt...more out of touch? I don't know. And the jokes felt samey too. How many times did I hear them say "Scene!...Scene?" when the film would linger on something too long?

Rifftrax doesn't work IMO because newer releases are just not a good subject. A large part of the charm of MST3K was the bizarre movies used and the atmosphere they created.

[Phil_A]

Rifftrax doesn't work IMO because newer releases are just not a good subject. A large part of the charm of MST3K was the bizarre movies used and the atmosphere they created.

That's why I only bother with their Video On Demand stuff, which generally tends to be all public domain films and other weird esoterica. That seems much truer to the spirit of MST3K than having them do The Matrix or whatever.

[great_badir]

They still do old/shit/weird films on Rifftrax.

Admittedly Rifftrax is far more patchy than MST, but there's still a lot of good stuff in it.  And, in my opinion, it's a lot better than Cinematic Titanic (something never sat right with me with that, but I can't put my finger on what).

[Famous Mortimer]

They still do old/shit/weird films on Rifftrax.

Admittedly Rifftrax is far more patchy than MST, but there's still a lot of good stuff in it.  And, in my opinion, it's a lot better than Cinematic Titanic (something never sat right with me with that, but I can't put my finger on what).

I feel the opposite, but...er...dunno.

Oh, "Starfighters"! That's up there in my desert island MST collection.

[great_badir]

I watched the Final Sacrifice episode last night, for about the millionth time.  Glorious.  "Rowsdower mobile, away!"

[Attila]

The Kickstarter is a little over $2M now...

[great_badir]

Also the aforementioned Jonah Ray confirmed as...Joel's preferred choice for host.  Which is probably as good as saying Jonah Ray is confirmed as host.

[Famous Mortimer]

Eurgh. I think Chris Hardwick showing up on an episode would be enough to make me fall out of love with the show forever (so I've got about a year, I figure).

This is what I've wanted since I first discovered the show, but it's like bringing back Porridge (maybe my favourite sitcom of all time). It's not the prison that I'm a fan of, it's Barker and Beckinsale and the writing and the dark tone that underlies every bit of business. Having none of the original cast (probably), and two 80 year old men writing it, isn't going to be the same. It will be worse, without a doubt.

And this. Joel (who comes across a bit badly in these written updates, like he's desperate to laugh every criticism off without really taking it on[nb]the thing about Minnesota, where he spent a few hundred words to just say "no", for one[/nb]) might write some of it, but it's going to have nothing apart from the location. It shows a misunderstanding of what people loved about the show, I think- that it had a different sensibility to everything else that was on at the time, those writers, the two hosts, the crew...

Joel seems to be going on about how him quitting halfway through was apparently by design now, and this is just another example of the rotating cast thing they had going on. It's not really the same, though, or anywhere close to it - Murphy was in 185 episodes, Beaulieu 150, Nelson 124; in terms of writing, Murphy wrote on every episode, Nelson on 177 and there's a bunch of other people who wrote, acted or both on more than half the show's run. That, apart from him, no-one from the original run is guaranteed to come back at all, is just a new show with the same name.

And that new show might well be good (it had better be, with all the money I'm paying for it). But I doubt it.

I'm sorry, everyone reading this (and still reading this post). It's a combination of a weird tone to the updates and the fucking Nerdist being involved, and I now realise how every angry nerd who gets mocked for saying "it'll suck" a year before anything comes out feels. Please don't dismiss me like that. I want to be pleased, so much, but I want my show back! I don't want LA Podcast Theater 3000.

[Famous Mortimer]

Oh, and Rifftrax has started selling MST episodes now, and make a point of saying how the original cast is getting a cut of the profits. I imagine it's not a coincidence, nor is Trace's promotion of Rifftrax. Cinematic Titanic's Facebook feed is promoting Rifftrax now, so I'm looking forward more than ever to that tell-all book.

[kngen]

Can't say I'm too enthused about this, but then I'm the type of person that finds it hard to watch Joel-era episodes, so invested I am in Mike as the host. I need to sort that out though, as I'm running out of Mike episodes, and, that said, I've definitely warmed to Joel after his appearance on Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee. But someone completely new? There aren't enough 'm's in existence for the 'Hmmmmmm .... ' I'd need to write.

Seeing as we're picking favourite eps,  Red Zone Cuba is probably my favourite (and the first one I ever saw apart from the movie, so will always have a special place). To this day, I have to fight the urge to blurt out 'I'm Cherokee Jack!', to the amusement of absolutely no-one, on the rare occasion the word 'cherokee' comes up in conversation.

Space Mutiny, Time Chasers, The Girl in Golden Boots, Invasion USA, High School Big Shot are all brilliant, but the one I keep coming back to is Riding With Death - being a cut and shunt of two TV episodes (with two entirely separate storylines) into a badly edited movie means they double-down on how shit the individual stories are, as well as ripping the piss out of it as a whole. Ah, it's fucking wonderful. I couldn't recommend it enough.

[Bhazor]

Yeah this is getting screwier, who the hell even owns the license now? I assumed the whole purpose of the project was just Joel buying back the rights so he could sell the old episodes online or to tv stations. An idea I would have definitely backed by the way. The original series polished up to HD standards? Great! But now Mike is selling them from his own store (despite previously saying he never recieved royalties from the show since it ended) but Joel is still offering free downloads of old episodes to backers. But only for a limited time?

I feel like I've opened a John LeCarre novel in the middle.

My big fear is that with all this IP malarky going on the old episodes in crummy VHS quality will vanish off youtube and that just feels kind of wrong. I mean fans fought for a decade to smuggle them online in the first place. I remember when the episodes were being uploaded on youtube in ten parts with wierd code names you had sign up to emailing list to receive. All those C&Ds, all those copyright strikes, all those forum bans. All Lost. Like tears in the rain.

Edit: On the subject of Blockbuster Rifftrax. The focus has definitely shifted to B-movies now with fewer and fewer new films being used. In the past they have done some fantastic Blockbuster episodes though. I'd recommend Paranormal Activity, Twilight Saga and Avatar (smurf version, not bender version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvKrQ-Tysm8

[sedef122]

Ah now I remember why I come to this forum, to read cynical fucks moan about things they purportedly enjoy, well done everyone you are nailing it once again.

[Famous Mortimer]

Ah now I remember why I come to this forum, to read cynical fucks moan about things they purportedly enjoy, well done everyone you are nailing it once again.

And why I come on - to read trainee trolls point out what someone already criticised about themselves. You'll get better, I'm sure.

Still, now the thing I hope for that I'll be disappointed when it happens is Trace, Frank, Josh and Mary Jo becoming part of the Rifftrax family.

[Phil_A]

Yeah this is getting screwier, who the hell even owns the license now? I assumed the whole purpose of the project was just Joel buying back the rights so he could sell the old episodes online or to tv stations. An idea I would have definitely backed by the way. The original series polished up to HD standards? Great! But now Mike is selling them from his own store (despite previously saying he never recieved royalties from the show since it ended) but Joel is still offering free downloads of old episodes to backers. But only for a limited time?

I would assume selling old episodes via Rifftrax (allowing everyone involved to receive royalties for the first time ever), is something that was mutually agreed on, otherwise they wouldn't be up there very long. It seems like some kind of deal must've been done so Mike could sell the back catalogue while Joel makes more episodes with a new team, but who know what legal wranglings have been on.

[great_badir]

I remember when the episodes were being uploaded on youtube in ten parts with wierd code names you had sign up to emailing list to receive. All those C&Ds, all those copyright strikes, all those forum bans. All Lost. Like tears in the rain.

Christ, I remember all that business too.  With the official DVD releases being a bit of a dear hobby, in the end I just bit the bullet, got myself a premium Megaupload account and spent the best part of a day downloading all the episodes.  I've got them backed up 3 times, just in case.  Got the movie on blu-ray (the much better American one), though.

[colacentral]

None of this will affect shout factory's releases will it? Because we're incredibly close to reaching what was inconceivable a decade ago and having every episode released (bar Godzilla vs The Sea Monster which even they surely can't pull off a deal for).

I bought the volume that had Godzilla vs Megalon on as soon as it was available, knowing it wouldn't last long. As luck would have it, that one got nicked. It's still haunting me almost ten years later.