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Making a Murderer

Started by biggytitbo, December 20, 2015, 04:11:49 PM

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Quote from: biggytitbo on December 23, 2015, 10:43:01 AM

Weird how the bombshell where they find the
Spoiler alert
blood sample from '85 has been tampered with
[close]
is almost entirely dropped though isnt it?

Yes, was quite remarkable that wasn't capitalised on more by the defence, wasn't it?

I think that a re-watch on a few epiosdes is required from me as i have loose ends in my head that i may have missed being addressed on this.

What about the fact
Spoiler alert
that no other suspects were interviewed or even investigated (from what i see) on this. In particular the ex-bf and Teresa's flatmate. I would have thought that due process would have meant eliminating any other potential avenues os suspects.
[close]

Entropy Balsmalch

Don't want to read anything here in fear of spoilers.

Fucking hell - episode 3 made me so angry I had to keep turning it off and walking away.

Great stuff. Racing through it.

How had I never heard of this case?


Steven


biggytitbo

There were parts of that rung a vague bell so I'm guessing it's been covered by the likes of 48 hours at some point in the last decade, albeit in a vastly different way to this.

Dropshadow

Just finished watching all the episodes. Seriously good viewing. Like most people in this thread I too, at first, was left perplexed by all the unbelievable shittiness of the whole, sad affair and then I realized, like I was shot, like I was shot with a diamond bullet through my forehead, that it's all right.

They're Americans.

The corrupt police are Americans. The prosecuters are Americans. The higher-up judiciary are Americans. The juries in all the trials are Americans. So there y' go.

biggytitbo

There's only two rational explantions, the Americans one above or that the film has misled us and there was a much better prosecution case than we were shown.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 23, 2015, 08:26:06 PM
There were parts of that rung a vague bell so I'm guessing it's been covered by the likes of 48 hours at some point in the last decade, albeit in a vastly different way to this.

It's a very well known case in the States with the obligatory heavy media coverage. The book I mentioned was last reprinted by the American Bar Association because of the significance of the Beerntsen case.

Dropshadow

So to sum up, there's seven possibile scenarios for who done the actual killin'.

(1) Steven Avery.
(2) Steven Avery, assisted by his nephew, Brendan.
(3) The police.
(4) Some civilian person, or people contracted by the police.
(5) A random, coincidental murderer/serial killer.
(6) While talking her photos, she tripped on a piece of junk, died, and Steven found the body after which he hurriedly disposed of it.
(7) Relatives and/or friends of Teresa Halbach.

My opinions......

(1) Maybe, but not in the modus operandi described by the prosecution.
(2) Brendan's innocent.
(3) Too far-fetched.
(4) Maybe, but I doubt it unless in conjunction with (7).
(5) Naaah.
(6) Naaah.
(7) I'm rootin' for this one.

The boyfriend looked suspicious in his interviews, and I don't trust the victim's brother - the arse that did all the talking and "loves the police". The boyfriend knocks her off for whatever reason and leaves the body somewhere. Two possibilities.....

(1) Ridden with guilt, he runs to the police station and confesses all. The top brass see this as an opportunity to kill two bird..... sorry, to capitalize on a good thing, ie they can pin it on someone who's about to sue them for millions and "solve" the murder at the same time. Murderer gets off with it if he keeps his trap shut.
(2) The police find the body themselves, "process" it and initiate the frame.

These views are liable to change at any time. It's Christmas eve, and I'm bored.

Hank Venture

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 20, 2015, 08:00:35 PM
Len Kacinsky
Spoiler alert
what a fucking louse. Not only a creepy fucker, but doing his best to send his own client to jail for life. Maybe he's the true murderer?
[close]

What a rat. How can one person be that incompetent? Baffling.

Hank Venture

Unanswered questions:

1. Why Steve Avery? Why not any of the other Averies? Or Scotty? Did they all have alibies but him? There's nothing of note that I could see that tied him to the case.
2. Why the garage? Honestly, did they just pick a spot? The prosecution admits that it didn't happen in the trailer, but I don't reslly get why they're happy to do that while being certain it happened in the garage.
3. The creep that called in the licence plate and make of the car before it went missing. Why would he call that in? That alone should lead to an investigation.
4. That mire wasn't made of the first miscarriage of justice when the prosecution pulled on the heartstrings with the "small town police officers and family men doing their best" spiel. Fucking gross. All I could do was shout "BUT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS EXACT THING BEFORE" at the TV.
5. And this is the most baffling one: who was the phone pest that had called Teresa for weeks? Surely worth more than the 30 seconds it got. Surely easy to spot in her phone records. A blatant suspect.

I don't think Avery did it. Why would he? What's the motive?


Hank Venture

Thinking about it - the key HAS to be planted. None of the victims DNA, but lots of Averys? That doesnt happen.

EOLAN

Obviously a very defendant biased documentary, though not saying that I am fully convinced of either guilt or innocence of Steven. Lots to discuss but one thing in relation to the
Spoiler alert
judge statement on passing sentence. When be stated that Steven's crimes were getting progressively worse, was he alluding to the sentence of which he was exonerated. Other than that weren't any offences relatively minor.
[close]

biggytitbo

Apparently the film does downplay Averys past crimes a bit. The cat incident which is briefly mentioned was actually quite aggragavates. He doused a cat in petrol and chucked it on a fire and watched it burn to death.


I suspect there might be other bits and pieces the film has chosen to downplay or not incoude that might make him look more guilty, although I think it came across as reasonably balanced in the circumstances.

Hank Venture

Genuinely unfarhomable how the brother Halbach can stand there and be that pleased with this farce of a case. Is he not even curious why Colborn called in the licence plate before Theresa was reported missing? It's insane the tunnelvision something like that requires.

Ja'moke

Quote from: Dropshadow on December 24, 2015, 12:41:52 PM
So to sum up, there's seven possibile scenarios for who done the actual killin'.

(1) Steven Avery.
(2) Steven Avery, assisted by his nephew, Brendan.
(3) The police.
(4) Some civilian person, or people contracted by the police.
(5) A random, coincidental murderer/serial killer.
(6) While talking her photos, she tripped on a piece of junk, died, and Steven found the body after which he hurriedly disposed of it.
(7) Relatives and/or friends of Teresa Halbach.


(8) She killed herself. What was with the weird video she'd recorded a few weeks earlier saying "If I die I can say I've lived a good life" or whatever?

biggytitbo

She killed herself and then chopped up and burnt her own body? That plan is so fiendish it might bamboozle even the sharpest of police forces.

Ja'moke

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 25, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
She killed herself and then chopped up and burnt her own body? That plan is so fiendish it might bamboozle even the sharpest of police forces.

I was just offering another theory to the "who done the actual killin'" part. Not who burnt the body and the rest of it.

I don't actually believe she killed herself, just throwing it out there.

DrGreggles

Watched all of this fascinating/riveting/depressing series today.

Merry Christmas everyone...

Johnny Textface

Brooker tweeting this is the best documentary EVA..

Entropy Balsmalch

Beyond depressing.

I think it trod a line very carefully. It's a doc about an alleged miscarriage of justice. To turn it in to a whodunnit would've cheapened it.

Unfortunately, that's what's already happening on social media.

Another doc specifically framed as a whodunnit would be welcome - but trying to mix the two is always dangerous. That's why I found Serial so poisonous.

Despite how great it was, I don't know if I can stand to watch it a second time. The treatment of Brendan is terrifying. I actually had to turn off during parts of that because I was shaking with rage.

biggytitbo

I still think the staircase is probably better, simply because it's so much more unbelievable and sensational than this. As superb as it was, making a murderer is depressingly banal and familiar from watching many American true crime docs.

Hank Venture

How is the Staircase more unbelivable?

Eis Nein

#53
Quote from: Hank Venture on December 25, 2015, 04:43:46 PM
Genuinely unfarhomable how the brother Halbach can stand there and be that pleased with this farce of a case. Is he not even curious why Colborn called in the licence plate before Theresa was reported missing? It's insane the tunnelvision something like that requires.

The Kerchers pressed for years to convict Amanda Knox, despite their being a similar lack of evidence and motive. What's different is that case had a clearly guilty party who got done, and Knox was bonus vengeance for being insufficiently maudlin. I can't imagine ever being satisfied with someone getting sent down on dodgy evidence, unless you are less than totally committed in the actual perpetrator being punished. So I echo the suspicions of
Spoiler alert
the corn-fed K-Mart Tom Brady brother and the gimlet-eyed ex
[close]
.

Best smirk? Tough call between the shit-eating Kachinsky and Ken Loverman Kratz during the
Spoiler alert
first Brendan press conderence
[close]
. Kachinsky wins under the Fargo Rule for looking like William H Macy.

Hank Venture

Quote of the series, though?

"Implications of wrongdoing bye the Manitowoc County police will be AT YOUR PERIL."

"Frame him? It'd be easier just to kill him."

Eis Nein

Those are both strong, but I'd argue
Spoiler alert
"they say my statements are inconsistent... What does inconsistent mean?". A child eligible for release at the age of 58
[close]
.

I am completely at a loss of how they are legally able to confine BD still. It just reeks of cold hearted vengeance that is enforced  by the Manitowoc establishment. Crazy shit yo!

biggytitbo

Quote from: Hank Venture on December 26, 2015, 12:28:37 AM
How is the Staircase more unbelivable?


The staircase is like an episode of Columbo, complete with some incredible twists - a very rare kind of case. The kind of banal corruption and injustice in making a murderer is sadly far less uncommon.

Steven

Nearly finished this, watched episode 7 this morning. Reserving judgement until I've seen it all, though some particular details ring alarm bells.

Regarding Peterson in The Staircase, I never did any extra-curricular reading about the death of his first wife, but it really seemed inconclusive in the documentary as I recall. Not sure about that, though the death of the second wife..
Spoiler alert
he well did it.
[close]

Dropshadow

Quote from: Eis Nein on December 26, 2015, 01:05:56 AM
Kachinsky wins under the Fargo Rule for looking like William H Macy.

Well, Mike O' Kelly, the intrepid private investigator hired by Brendan's slimy little lawyer wins under the Shawshank Redemption Rule for looking like Warden Samuel Norton. Check him out during the horrific Brendan interrogation in which he tells Brend what to draw.