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Making a Murderer

Started by biggytitbo, December 20, 2015, 04:11:49 PM

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Moribunderast

Kratz's high-pitched, softly, softly vocal delivery creeps me the fuck out and I want him punched very hard in the stomach.

Two more episodes to go for me. Amazing documentary series but I hate it.

newbridge

I'm only four episodes in, but at this point (only because no other suspects have been suggested) it seems possible that
Spoiler alert
Steven Avery killed the woman given that her body was found feet from his trailer, and the corrupt police then (stupidly) tried to frame him by planting the key, the blood evidence, and possible concocting Brendan's confession.
[close]
. I think it's telling how
Spoiler alert
one of the sheriff deputies (and later the weirdo sheriff who threatened to kill Avery) mentioned how they were convinced that Avery was acquitted for the rape because the DNA evidence was falsified. Maybe they figured turnaround was fair play?
[close]

By the way, everybody's favorite prosecutor Ken Kratz was later forced to resign for sexting domestic violence victims and trying to blackmail them into having sex with him. Not sure if they mention that later in the documentary.

newbridge

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 20, 2015, 08:00:35 PM
Len Kacinsky
Spoiler alert
what a fucking louse. Not only a creepy fucker, but doing his best to send his own client to jail for life. Maybe he's the true murderer?
[close]

Given the comparative lack of reason to think Kacinsky is a conspiratorial twat (unlike all of the police), I'm guessing Brendan's vacillating confessions were a lot more complicated than the straightforward/obvious coercion that the documentary depicts. Brendan is totally unreliable given how suggestible he is, which means we shouldn't believe his confession, but also means we should question his later assertions that he didn't do anything (which his mother and others were telling him to say).

Kancinsky and his investigator may have been doing a good job of representing their client by concluding that a plea deal for 10-20 years would be better than life in prison.
Spoiler alert
I'm only through episode 4 but I know from news coverage of this case that Brendan is serving life in prison.
[close]

DrGreggles

I bet you change your mind...

Garam

This exchange from episode 7 made my head explode


Asshole Moustache Attorney: Do you believe it was impossible or improbable for them to plant that key?

Deputy Dipshit Dawg: [...] I would have to say that...it could be possible, as in I was doing other things [...] so if we're just limiting it to 'if it was possible that they could do it without me seeing it', i'd have to say 'yeah, i guess it is possible!'

Asshole Moustache Attorney who Very Possibly Framed Someone for Murder: Is that in the sense that...anything's possible!? *smirks like a piece of shit*

Deputy Dipshit Dawg: That's in the sense that...possibly aliens put it there I guess

Frustrated Defence Lawyer: There weren't any aliens in the room, right?

Deputy Dipshit Dawg: Not that I know of.

Frustrated Defence Lawyer: So it being possible in the same way that aliens are possible really isn't a fair characterisation of what you meant, is it??

long pause

Deputy Dipshit Dawg: I don't understand.



WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK

CaledonianGonzo

Finished this this evening and can only agree that it's a simultaneously riveting and thoroughly depressing meisterwerk.

My own query: 

Why was no one that interested in Bobby Dassey and Scott Taydch's dubious and conflicting alibis?  Both obviously refused to cooperate with the filmmakers so their brief appearances are explicable from that perspective, but the fact that the police weren't interested is just staggering.

And didn't Bobby also have a buddy there at the time?

Ja'moke

Yep. Bobby Dassey and Scott Taydch are the most suspicious to me. Both present on the lot when Teresa was there, both only have each other as alibis ("Scott can tell you precisely what time it was" - that was odd), and Scott was trying to sell a rifle the next day and Bobby had scratch marks on his back. They definitely should have been questioned.

Eis Nein

The ex should have been a prime suspect, as in so many other murders of women.
Spoiler alert
Scratches on his hands, no alibi, directs search, accesses the voicemails which are deleted. My guess is his access to her phone, and therefore information about her movements, was chronic.
[close]

Mister Six

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 20, 2015, 11:34:47 PM
Onto episode 8 now and my main problem with the defence case is the point made by the prosecution in their summary -
Spoiler alert
the defence only really works if we propose the cops killed the woman. The alternative is a random killer whose plan relies on so many factors out of their control to go for them as to be incredibly unlikely and unsatisfying as a scenario. Would the cops really have murdered and mutilated a woman, then burnt her corpse to frame Avery? It just seems so extreme and unecessary to be viable for me.
[close]
Not seen the last two yet but
Spoiler alert
isn't it possible that the cops found the body and planted it? One of the suspicious ones called in with the licence plate and a description of the car and asked whether it was missing, then denied in court that he was with the car when he made the call. Not sure where that falls in the timeline, but sounded to me like they'd been looking out for potential fitting-up fodder.
[close]

newbridge

My final verdict:

-
Spoiler alert
Brendan so clearly should have been found not guilty it is probably the most shocking of any of these false-conviction stories that I've seen. Christ's fat cock, he'd better get a new trial through his federal appeals.
[close]

-
Spoiler alert
I think Steven Avery did it, and the idiot cops almost screwed it up by blatantly planting the key in his trailer. I'm not convinced the police planted any of the other evidence, and I doubt Avery ever has a chance on appeal unless somebody can find that chemical in the blood sample indicating it was planted. I don't find the repeated involvement of certain Manitowoc County officers as suspicious as the filmmakers considering the murder happened in Manitowoc County and the sheriff's department appeared to only have 5-10 officers in total.
[close]

-
Spoiler alert
There is circumstantial evidence not presented in the documentary that makes Avery appear more guilty. Assuming this is all accurate (I didn't do much work confirming it), he apparently had a history with the murder victim and made some suspicious calls to her phone on the day of the murder. He allegedly also told someone in jail that he wanted to chain up a woman and rape her, and there is evidence that he bought handcuffs/chains prior to the murder. None of that is enough to convict, but that his defense rests on alleging that the police planted a bunch of fairly strong forensic evidence I think it's pretty strong circumstantial evince.
[close]

biggytitbo

Quote from: newbridge on January 01, 2016, 04:38:57 PM
My final verdict:

-
Spoiler alert
Brendan so clearly should have been found not guilty it is probably the most shocking of any of these false-conviction stories that I've seen. Christ's fat cock, he'd better get a new trial through his federal appeals.
[close]

-
Spoiler alert
I think Steven Avery did it, and the idiot cops almost screwed it up by blatantly planting the key in his trailer. I'm not convinced the police planted any of the other evidence, and I doubt Avery ever has a chance on appeal unless somebody can find that chemical in the blood sample indicating it was planted. I don't find the repeated involvement of certain Manitowoc County officers as suspicious as the filmmakers considering the murder happened in Manitowoc County and the sheriff's department appeared to only have 5-10 officers in total.
[close]

-
Spoiler alert
There is circumstantial evidence not presented in the documentary that makes Avery appear more guilty. Assuming this is all accurate (I didn't do much work confirming it), he apparently had a history with the murder victim and made some suspicious calls to her phone on the day of the murder. He allegedly also told someone in jail that he wanted to chain up a woman and rape her, and there is evidence that he bought handcuffs/chains prior to the murder. None of that is enough to convict, but that his defense rests on alleging that the police planted a bunch of fairly strong forensic evidence I think it's pretty strong circumstantial evince.
[close]


Got any links to that evidence against Avery? I meant to go have a look to see if the film left anything out but I couldn't be arsed in the end.

newbridge

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 01, 2016, 05:59:40 PM

Got any links to that evidence against Avery? I meant to go have a look to see if the film left anything out but I couldn't be arsed in the end.

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html

Here's one, though only #8-11 really add anything not discussed in the documentary.[nb]On the second thought, the handcuffs/leg irons are sort of irrelevant given that the police most likely concocted the whole "shackled and raped" scenario and fed it to Brendan. Her DNA was nowhere to be found in the trailer.[/nb] The phone calls are the main thing for me. Calling twice with his identity blocked, then calling a third time after she was dead with the initial plan of saying she never showed up?

For the sake of all CaB users, I hope #5 is not considered damning evidence.

biggytitbo

Interesting, thanks. Pretty much all the evidence of their prior contact is erased from the documentary isn't it, even though presumably they must have been aware of it. I'm sticking with the theory that
Spoiler alert
avery did it and he was fitted up.
[close]

Entropy Balsmalch

#73
How's Detective Inspector Web coming along with solving this one then?

Fuck all other than blogs of lists of have arsed bits of "research" followed with "I reckon..."

No?

It's Serial all over again, only at least the film makers here didn't even try and turn it in to a whodunnit.

I've actually had to stop recommending this to people because all you get after they do is endless lists of lists from lists of lists on fucking Reddit.

biggytitbo


Replies From View

Quote from: Entropy Balsmalch on January 01, 2016, 06:50:12 PM
Fuck all other than blogs of lists of have arsed bits of "research" followed with "I reckon..."

They're shit I reckon.

Noodle Lizard

#76
I've just finished the 8th episode (all in one sitting) and this is making me unhealthily furious.  I'm generally not really into true crime type stuff but I'm properly invested in this case.  Granted, even once I'm done I'm going to have to do a bit more research into it as I'm not certain this documentary's the most reliable/unbiased source of information, but damned if it isn't getting my emotions all riled up all over the shop.

B minus.

Noodle Lizard

Alright, done with it now then.  I'm in two minds, because despite spending 10 odd hours on it I really don't feel like I've been given anything close to the whole story.  As much as I obviously want to side with the defendant(s), I feel somewhat manipulated into doing so.  Of course it's possible that them and their family and supporters would be so bumbling and lovely and everyone opposed would be practically pantomime villains, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time a documentary has managed to fabricate such a feat[nb]to get "legal", it's worth considering the filmmakers' motive as well - documentarians especially aren't renowned for their ethics[/nb], and I do have just about enough faith in people to think two separate juries in separate towns wouldn't give an unanimous guilty verdict based on such a goofy prosecution.  I feel like some important stuff has been left out; are full transcripts (of the closing statements at least) available?

Regardless, it definitely seems like the two cases should be re-opened.  But again, there may be perfectly good reasons for not doing so that we just don't know about.  So I dunno.  This has both bummed me out and left me confused.  Good?

MuteBanana

Not reading this thread in case you lot have seen it all and discussing it. Currently watching episode 5. That hot brunette reporter with the glasses is hot eh?

Spoiler alert
I just sat upright in bed and had to rewind the part where the ex says he first heard Teresa was missing when her housemate rang him up "He said Teresa's dead.' and then he quickly moves on. Um...what? Did nobody pick up on that? Somebody better have picked up on that.
[close]

I just had to post that to get it off my chest.

Mister Six

#79
Quote from: MuteBanana on January 04, 2016, 01:22:20 AM
Not reading this thread in case you lot have seen it all and discussing it. Currently watching episode 5. That hot brunette reporter with the glasses is hot eh?

Even hotter when she calls bullshit on all the, er, bullshit.

In the film version in my head, she's played by Kristen Wiig. The not-bald good lawyer is played by Steve Carrell. I'm not sure who plays the bald good lawyer. I'm pretty sure I've seen an actor who looks exactly like him somewhere, but I can't think who.

Evil whispery lawyer is a fat-again Wayne Knight. Steve Avery is Paul Giamatti. The absurdly handsome grey-haired news reporter who never speaks can play himself.

MuteBanana

#80
Quote from: Mister Six on January 04, 2016, 01:28:47 AM
Even hotter when she calls bullshit on all the, er, bullshit.

Loved that. She's hero. A foxy sexy hero.

Great in episode six going in on the DNA guy with her earrings and water. I also loved her bullshit stance.


Puce Moment

I think it is the unusually long run-time and detail that makes this case so troubling and difficult to access with any certainty. If this was a 90-mins doc I think I would come away from it with a clearer, but probably far less informed, opinion of what went on.

Sorry, can't remember all the names and can't be arsed looking them up, but these are my idle thoughts:

- Overall I found this tonally weighted in favour of Avery, even though as a (possible) guilty man his case (and Brendan's) are like a a crime scene UV light shining on the shitty-blood stains all over the Wisconsin legal system.   
- Brendan is very probably completely innocent. His entire confession has fabrication all over it, his claims of 'returning' seem utterly bogus, and his mental age should have never left him open to the kind of manipulations and techniques of the cops and prosecution. The conversation with his mum about the meaning of the word "inconsistent" was fucking desperate.
- Other than the murder of Trish, the treatment of Brendan by his defence is the single worst thing that happens in this doc. They have nothing but disdain for the Avery's generally, and the way they use someone as vulnerable as Brendan for their own ends is fucking horrible. Utter cunts.
- Some of the conclusions drawn by various witnesses for the prosecution are alarming - not least the issue of the blood in Trish's car and the unfounded opinions put forward by the forensics guy.
- Regardless of whether Avery is guilty or not, the issue of the 'called in' licence plates and car description, plus the tampered blood vial, were enough to show that some kind of cover-up was taking place.
- I was extremely surprised that the prosecution were allowed to put forward an argument that was "either Avery did or the Police did it" given that NOT ONE other person was investigated for the murder.
- A lot of people stood to lose a lot of credibility once the compensation payment was made to Avery - on that basis the timing was impeccable.
- Surely, after being released from prison, Avery was a minor local celebrity, and surely a lot of people would have been aware that Trish visited Avery's business on a regular basis? It would be almost a no-brainer to kill her after seeing Avery.
- I found the defence attorney's for Avery to be quite annoying, and also wildly biased in favour of their client. By that, I mean they don't take a very objective view of Avery- and how could they given how much he was paying them? There are points where I felt they could have been more focused and accepting of the reality, rather than constantly needing to convince each other of the shabbiness of the prosecution case.
- Did Avery kill Trish? Well, I don't know. The location of the bones to his trailer is damning, but the argument that they had better machinery to get rid of bodies through burning, and the fact that it was right next to him, and not buried miles away on their plot of land, is compelling.

Overall it was fascinating being privy to the minutiae and detail of a case such as this, and after 10-hours I have come away feeling depressed and hopeless. And yeah, fuck off with the moody opening titles and bluegrass music. This is Wisconsin - practically Canada - not Alabama.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: MuteBanana on January 04, 2016, 01:22:20 AM
Not reading this thread in case you lot have seen it all and discussing it. Currently watching episode 5. That hot brunette reporter with the glasses is hot eh?

There's a hotter human woman in episode 8!  You'll see.  Absolutely lovely in every way.

newbridge

Here are transcripts of Brendan's recorded interviews.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/dassey_confessions_links.html

I browsed most of them and it's pretty obvious that he had nothing to do with the murder (and probably nothing to do with disposing of the body, though that is at least more ambiguous). The sad chain of false confession is also obvious. He starts by telling detectives what the want to hear, and then in order to resolve logical inconsistencies his story becomes more and more fantastical until he's admitting to murdering and raping a woman. Life in prison for this? Fucking pathetic.

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on January 04, 2016, 01:58:50 AM
There's a hotter human woman in episode 8!  You'll see.  Absolutely lovely in every way.

Impossible, who? For a moment I thought those reporter scenes were from some sort of mixed archival footage/dramatization TV movie given the appearance of all the news anchors.

newbridge

Quote from: newbridge on January 04, 2016, 03:11:05 AM
Here are transcripts of Brendan's recorded interviews.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/dassey_confessions_links.html

I browsed most of them and it's pretty obvious that he had nothing to do with the murder (and probably nothing to do with disposing of the body, though that is at least more ambiguous). The sad chain of false confession is also obvious. He starts by telling detectives what the want to hear, and then in order to resolve logical inconsistencies his story becomes more and more fantastical until he's admitting to murdering and raping a woman. Life in prison for this? Fucking pathetic.

Of particular note (aside from all the instances where the police explicitly volunteer things first, before pressuring Brendan into agreeing/admitting) is the confession about the scene inside Steven's trailer on the March 1 interview. There were prior interviews that were not recorded due to a device "malfunction," but from what we have on video it appears that the police had already coached Brendan in what happened (e.g. "Cuz, we, we know but we need it in your words," "I already know. You know we know," "Remember, we already know, but we need to hear it from you, it's OK," "What kind of words is he use, using though? You can say those words here."[nb]How do you know he was using bad words if Brendan is "confessing" all this for the first time, you fucknut?![/nb])

newbridge

Also, this was covered in the documentary, but the sequence where they try to get him to say Steven shot her in the head (since that appears to be how she was actually killed) is just painful and encapsulates how false the entire thing is, and how much Brendan will keep giving them answers until they are satisfied. [His story is also directly contradicted by the physical evidence; according to Brendan's confession, she was not shot in the garage, and her body was never in the back of her RAV4]

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: newbridge on January 04, 2016, 03:11:05 AM
Impossible, who?

Oh just you wait.  She's a lawyer and I'd probably marry her if she wanted.

MuteBanana

Yes sassy reporter is out. Laura Nirider is in. If I ever need a lawyer I'm calling Nirider.

imitationleather

Following this my girlfriend and I have gone on a binge-watch of all the wrongful-conviction documentaries we can find. To be honest, after a few nights of this they all kind of merge in to one, there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of wrongful conviction stories from the US.

Favourite so far is Murder on a Sunday Morning, which is made by the same guy who did The Staircase. It's my favourite because of the defence attorney, who is everything a defence attorney in an old film should be. The best bit is when the corrupt detective sees the defence attorney before going in to court for cross-examination and is like "Go on, suck on another cancer stick!" And the defence guy replies, "I always enjoy a cigarette before sex...' Then it cuts to him saying "I was letting him know I was going to screw him... and I did." Such a character, pure class.

Entropy Balsmalch

Did you watch "The Thin Blue Line" ? That's a classic of the genre.