Game Of Thrones - Season 6

[NoSleep]

I think I highlighted the "sort of thing", when the source material is taken as the only standard of artistic success and any deviation from it is viewed as artistic failure. I'd agree she is far from the most extreme example of this but watching her reviews previously it seemed to crop up pretty often.

It doesn't require a denouncement of artistic failure to notice that GRRM is better at this stuff than D&D. The only criticism is of the failings of the TV series (the first four seasons are great, regardless of the rewriting to make it work on TV). I think her summation of season 6 as "fan fiction" is apt. Her usual reason to refer to GRRM is that shit happens in the books because shit happens, not because of some moral account balancing by the gods (as we have come to anticipate from TV, etc) and I think that's a fair point.

[greenman]

It doesn't require a denouncement of artistic failure to notice that GRRM is better at this stuff than D&D. The only criticism is of the failings of the TV series (the first four seasons are great, regardless of the rewriting to make it work on TV). I think her summation of season 6 as "fan fiction" is apt. Her usual reason to refer to GRRM is that shit happens in the books because shit happens, not because of some moral account balancing by the gods (as we have come to anticipate from TV, etc) and I think that's a fair point.

I would say the very phrase "fan fiction" used in that fashion reveals exactly the mindset I'm talking about, a suggestion that Martin can be the only worthwhile source of material. I can't really make a definitive judgement here as I'v not read the books(although I might get around to it this year now theres little for them to spoil on the show) but even without doing that I pickup on calling to authority like that rather too often. I'm as big a fan of Tolkien as you will find but I thought that a great many supposed "scholars" came across as incredibly foolish in there criticism of Jacksons deviations in LOTR(Faramir being tempted by the Ring for example) showing that without the book to draw upon they had very limited understanding of effective drama.

I am interested in see whether there's some divergence from Martin in terms of moral outlook and this does seem to be a considerable dividing line between fans.  As I'v said before to me it seems that a lot of people almost have a bit of a "battered wife" outlook in terms of his moral compass, catharsis has been cut off so many times they need to view it as no longer even the intension. Again I'm not a reader but to me it still comes across that he is telling what is at its core a moralistic story, just one with a very long game where the more moralistic character aren't always assured of success or survival.

I tried giving her Finale review a go but I really couldn't get passed the valley girl/bro style for more than a few mins and there didn't seem to me much more to it than that, I don't remember it being that bad in the past.

[Mister Six]

I agree with all of that. I get the feeling there's more of a backlash this year because we're well and truly out of GRRM's territory so there's both a sense of unfamiliarity (and therefore uncertainty) about everything that's happening, so both small and large problems (or perceived problems) seem bigger than they are. Plus they don't have the 5,000 pages that GRRM has. Stuff needs to be wound up.

[NoSleep]

Are you saying they would have ditched the books if they had been written? It isn't the number of pages he has, it's the quality of the ideas and merely editing that for TV would have been superior to what we have had; for example the terrible dialogue (and character) Tyrion is lumbered with now, where they try and mimic what they had been able to take direct from the books up until now and fail.

[Mister Six]

I'm saying they would have ditched big chunks of the books, yes. As they already have. They're still working at least in part to an outline given by GRRM.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Some of Tyrion's dialogue - particularly with Varys has been clunky throughout. Indeed some of the weakest stuff was right at the beginning, where he seemed to be phoning in some of the awful schlocky attempts at wit and repartee disinterestedly.

To my mind he started becoming one of the best things in the show around end of series 2 start of series 3. He has peaked, seemingly.

[greenman]

Some of Tyrion's dialogue - particularly with Varys has been clunky throughout. Indeed some of the weakest stuff was right at the beginning, where he seemed to be phoning in some of the awful schlocky attempts at wit and repartee disinterestedly.

To my mind he started becoming one of the best things in the show around end of series 2 start of series 3. He has peaked, seemingly.

A lot of his scenes did feel rather "dornish" this season, basically looking to use a humourous character to paper over situations that really didn't have much drama to them. Greyworm and Missandei are such cardboard cutout characters that theres little to work with there and the built up drama with Varys had already been used last season.

When there was something of substance as with the Masters negotiations, the Red Priestess and the finale scene with Dany I'd say he was still very effective.

Not sure how it relates to adaptation but I do think the last couple of seasons have struggled when it comes to pacing relative to seasons 3-4. Season 5 felt 1-2 episodes too long to me bar Stannis who could have used 1-2 episodes more where as this season felt 1-2 episodes short. With the talk of moving to 7 episode seasons from now on I think its possible to see how they could actually have spilt this season into two blocks.

[Spiteface]

I just watched this video of a fan theory about how it might all end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxG03oBY5zU

Spoiler alert

I have to say, I think Daenerys as the"final boss" of the show makes more sense than simply her being a messiah-type figure, and yeah, seeing as R+L=J is pretty much confirmed in the show now, Jon Sneurgh probably could end up on the throne. A possible war with the white walkers seems a bit on the nose, too, if they can be reasoned with...

[close]

[Norton Canes]

Look. Game of Thrones is all about the bad guys winning out, has been from the very start. On that basis, I hope it ends with the White Walkers entombing the whole of Westeros under a huge glacier.

[greenman]

I just watched this video of a fan theory about how it might all end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxG03oBY5zU

Spoiler alert

I have to say, I think Daenerys as the"final boss" of the show makes more sense than simply her being a messiah-type figure, and yeah, seeing as R+L=J is pretty much confirmed in the show now, Jon Sneurgh probably could end up on the throne. A possible war with the white walkers seems a bit on the nose, too, if they can be reasoned with...

[close]

You don't have to use Spoiler covers for theories here.

Daenerys turning towards evil has certainly been brought up before with the potential of her suffering from the same madness as her father. That would obviously create good potential drama for characters like Tyrion and Varys who could likely turn against her were it to happen.

Another alternative is that Daenerys ends up rejecting the Iron Throne and focuses instead on the threat of the Walkers, maybe after Cersei has destroyed the Red Keep or Kings Landing as a whole.

As the video mentions the Walkers themselves are a left over from the war between men and the children of the Forrest so you could argue even if they remain an "evil" force to be defeated theres an anti war message there which could be played on with more of the Children featuring or maybe Bran looking into the past.

If that's the case the manner fo their defeat will likely be bitter sweet, at the least costing the lives of a lot of the "good guys" and perhaps with the concept that all the overtly magical characters(and dragons)need to be removed from the world as well.

To go further down that road of aswell there is the kind of Ragnarok idea that the world needs to be cleansed of corrupted gods/magic that many seem to buy into. That could play into the above or perhaps even that Jon and Daenerys end up as champions of the Walkers/Lord of Light respectively and destroy each other.

[NoSleep]

After a convoluted trajectory (that he, after all, started) Jaime finally ends up on the throne (he makes Jon Snow look greedy for power).

Actually love is a major force for fuck-ups in GoT, too. Starting with Rhaegar fancying Lyanna onwards.

[greenman]

After a convoluted trajectory (that he, after all, started) Jaime finally ends up on the throne (he makes Jon Snow look greedy for power).

Actually love is a major force for fuck-ups in GoT, too. Starting with Rhaegar fancying Lyanna onwards.

Well the idea that "love conquers all" certainly seems to be the centre of most fuckups with people following it at the expense of other moral considerations.

[WesterlyWinds]

Alright nerds, stop arguing the intricacies of GoT and give me a recommendation of another TV series to fill the gaping hole left by this one disappearing (as flawed as the last series was)

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Carnivale, might fit the bill. If you haven't seen it, it's another HBO show about a mystical apocalypse, set in Depression era America. The Grapes of Wrath meets Twin Peaks.

[NoSleep]

Sounds interesting.

I was going to say Vikings, which seemed to make a conscious move toward being a GoT wannabe from season 3 onward. The decline of GoT has made it less of a wannabe (although they don't have anywhere near the budget of GoT). For season 4 they've doubled the number of episodes and we're having a mid-season break at the moment.

[Default to the negative]

HBO's Rome is quite similiar. It's almost a like a proto-GoT.

[NoSleep]

It even has Edmure as Brutus. And Mance as Julius Caesar. The 2nd season is a massive truncation of what could have covered several seasons (but they must have known their days were numbered).

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

The 2nd season is a massive truncation of what could have covered several seasons (but they must have known their days were numbered).

It was the fall of Rome.

If you're looking for magical globe trotting shenanigans, without all the tits, gore and swearing, You might want to check out Avatar: The Last Airbender. It is a kids program but, after a shaky start, it soon finds its feet and becomes one of the best written fantasy shows I think I've seen. Besides, it's a hell of a lot better than Doctor Who.

[NoSleep]

Under no circumstances let anyone convince you to watch Beowulf: Return to the Shieldlands (despite guest appearances of Walder Frey from GoT and Torstein from Vikings[nb]Same actor was Hugh of the Vale in GoT, I've just read.[/nb]). I gave it more chances than it was worth and only managed a few episodes before giving up.

[WesterlyWinds]

It was the fall of Rome.

If you're looking for magical globe trotting shenanigans, without all the tits, gore and swearing, You might want to check out Avatar: The Last Airbender. It is a kids program but, after a shaky start, it soon finds its feet and becomes one of the best written fantasy shows I think I've seen. Besides, it's a hell of a lot better than Doctor Who.

Already watched all of this a few years ago and I agree, it is indeed incredible. Carnivale sounds great, so thanks for that - will check it out.

Thanks for the suggestions chaps, keep 'em coming.

[Céadóg]

Marco Polo is fairly decent. It was hammered by critics (very unfairly), but it's a very solid blood and tits historical epic. The characterisation is pretty good, and while the dialogue can be a bit clunky the action and tits makes up for it. The second season just came out on Netflix, and there's a prequel Christmas special knocking around on there too.

Otherwise, Rome is a good shout, I'd second that. Outlander is another historical fiction show knocking around, but it's absolute dogshit. Was forced to sit through the first series with the missus until it got so shit even she couldn't hack it. Strangely, yer man Edmure plays the big baddy in it.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Converse to my Avatar recommendation, if you want wall to wall tits, violence and naughty language, then the recently concluded Banshee is the show for you. It's pure pulp trash and all the better for it.

If you want all that, but of a more high minded bent, then Deadwood is the show for you.

Alternatively, if you want to watch Timothy Olyphant shooting baddies but without all the effing and blinding, you'll be wanting Justified.

[Dex Sawash]

Already watched all of this a few years ago and I agree, it is indeed incredible. Carnivale sounds great, so thanks for that - will check it out.

Thanks for the suggestions chaps, keep 'em coming.

I like Gunsmoke especially the eps where Hoss Cartright does a funny thing and there is some sort of misunderstanding.

[backdrifter]

Bit late with this but anyone interested in Game of Thrones music (or cinematic music in general) should checkout these podcasts. Its really amazing how many characters/groups have their own theme and how each theme is altered to fit the specific scene.

http://archive.org/download/PWSpecialS6ClefNotes/PWSpecial-S6ClefNotes.mp3
http://archive.org/download/PWSpecialClefNotesS6E08/PWSpecial-ClefNotes-S6E08.mp3
http://archive.org/download/PWClefNotesAndFeedbackS6/PWClefNotesAndFeedbackS6.mp3

(from podcastwinterfell.com)

[monolith]

Lannisters have the best.

[backdrifter]

I like Jaqen H'ghar's. But I bet hardly anyone can remember it.

[NoSleep]

Not come across this theory before, but as I've mentioned before, Jaime does seem to be at the right place at the right time, pushing the story onward (starting, of course, with killing the Mad King).

Why Jaime Lannister Is Azor Ahai, The Last Hero & The Prince Who Was Promised Theory! (SPOILERS)

[greenman]

Not come across this theory before, but as I've mentioned before, Jaime does seem to be at the right place at the right time, pushing the story onward (starting, of course, with killing the Mad King).

Why Jaime Lannister Is Azor Ahai, The Last Hero & The Prince Who Was Promised Theory! (SPOILERS)

Honestly to me Jamie seems setup as more someone in opposition to the "chosen ones" and various supernatural forces, I could potentially see him either in confrontation with them or as someone left around after the climax where many of them are killed off. I could see him dying after killing Cersei as well though.

[NoSleep]

Without giving credence to that theory, I'd have to disagree that he will be set against the "chosen ones". More than anyone else he is capable of thinking outside the box and making crucial decisions at the drop of a hat. His family are not the wealthy fallback of times past and he will have to look forward to survive without that support.

[greenman]

Without giving credence to that theory, I'd have to disagree that he will be set against the "chosen ones". More than anyone else he is capable of thinking outside the box and making crucial decisions at the drop of a hat. His family are not the wealthy fallback of times past and he will have to look forward to survive without that support.

Obviously he'll be on the other side of the conflict with Dany and potentially with the North but if he survives that or potentially swaps sides during it I think he'll be someone who's naturally going to be critical of anyone claiming "birth right" or "destiny" as singling them out to rule on some holy quest.  If Dany or Jon did start acting in a callous fashion I could see him in conlict with them again but even if not I could see him as a sharp lounge rebuking them although I spose he also is potentially someone Dany could marry.

My feeling is that the climax might well result in the deaths of most of such characters tied into a generally destruction of "magic" with the more down to earth characters(Jamie, Tyrion, Davos, etc) potentially left to inherit the rule of Westeros.