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"I prefer the early stuff" Vs "Oh, they got so much better"

Started by Brundle-Fly, June 27, 2016, 09:32:23 PM

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Golden E. Pump

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on July 06, 2016, 01:08:10 PM
So sad I'll never get to see him live at all.  My Depeche Mode curse repeated itself with Prince - three concerts I had tickets for over the years were cancelled and never rescheduled, and I never got lucky with tickets for the 3121/21 Nights In London or Hit and Run tours.

That is most unfortunate. I saw him three times - 2007 at the o2, 2011 at Hop Farm and 2014 in Manchester with 3rdEyeGirl. He improved each time.

greenman

Quote from: the science eel on July 06, 2016, 09:56:27 PM
Is it fuck!

Early Can, Faust and Amon Duul albums predated Ummagumma by a year or two.

I always think of Can - especially Tago Mago - as what I'd been led to believe Pink Floyd would sound like, before I'd heard them (when in actually fact it's quite boring music with the most lifeless vocals of any major band ever).

Floyd had been touring with material like that for over a year previously though and of course much of it featured on Saucerful of Secrets.

Stuff like Fly and Collision of Comas Sola by Tangerine Dream and Vuh by Popul Vuh really obviously show the influence but generally Floyd were going the route of deconstructed rock with simple hypnotic rhythms overlaid with spacey guitar and keyboards that made up a lot of krautrock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQH8LcAsEvA

They weren't the only influence on Krautrock of course which does cover a lot of ground but they were very clearly a big influence for a lot of it.

Honestly for me the issue is many people are too interested in the personality side of things. The good looking acid dropout Syd vs the dull upper class architecture students who went on to be millionaires, the same with Can with people looking to focus too much on the impact of Damo leaving.

I rather took the opposite view to you on Floyd, I always expected other big name prog to be more like their mid period stuff and ended up migrating to krautrock looking for that.

the science eel

Yeah, that makes sense.

I do honestly think that PF would be more interesting if they didn't have such awful vocals. I'm honestly surprised this is never pointed out (so it seems!). I can't get through Dark Side because of the singing. It's really not just the personalities!

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: greenman on July 06, 2016, 10:30:29 PM
generally Floyd were going the route of deconstructed rock with simple hypnotic rhythms overlaid with spacey guitar and keyboards

But primarily only because they were not as good musicians technically as most of their contemporaries (i.e. what soon after became prog), so they went the other way.  Plus they were more blues influenced, rather than jazz and/or classical.  I think it was more circumstance that sent them down that road, rather than intention.  Whereas krautrock was a very definite and intentional blueprint, as British prog was.

greenman

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on July 06, 2016, 11:00:44 PM
But primarily only because they were not as good musicians technically as most of their contemporaries (i.e. what soon after became prog), so they went the other way.  Plus they were more blues influenced, rather than jazz and/or classical.  I think it was more circumstance that sent them down that road, rather than intention.  Whereas krautrock was a very definite and intentional blueprint, as British prog was.

I would characterise the majority of krautrockers as not being great virtuosos and indeed a lot of them casted around a lot looking for a sound but even in Floyds case I think you can see there space rock sound growing from the start though Interstellar Overdrive towards stuff like Saucerful, Set the Controls, Careful with that Axe, Atom Heart Mothers and Echoes.

Along with the influence of Floyd themselves as well I think they tend to share more similar influences as well including modern classical and the more atmospheric side of jazz.

popcorn

Quote from: the science eel on July 06, 2016, 10:34:34 PM
I do honestly think that PF would be more interesting if they didn't have such awful vocals. I'm honestly surprised this is never pointed out (so it seems!). I can't get through Dark Side because of the singing. It's really not just the personalities!

This is actually a really interesting point that somehow I'd never thought about before. I've never had a problem with the vocals, but compared to other successful acts (in prog, rock and the mainstream generally) they're very, um, low-octane.

JerfyMcGriddles

Quote from: popcorn on July 07, 2016, 04:07:43 PM
This is actually a really interesting point that somehow I'd never thought about before. I've never had a problem with the vocals, but compared to other successful acts (in prog, rock and the mainstream generally) they're very, um, low-octane.
Hey man, people smoking opium have to have something to listen to.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: popcorn on July 07, 2016, 04:07:43 PM
This is actually a really interesting point that somehow I'd never thought about before. I've never had a problem with the vocals, but compared to other successful acts (in prog, rock and the mainstream generally) they're very, um, low-octane.

I think Dave Gilmour's got quite a good voice, but otherwise Rick Wright and Roger Waters are a bit...meh.

I have a similar sort of problem with The Band, though.  To most this is sacrilege, but I think Rick Danko's vocals are, for the most part, fairly grating and far too exaggerated.  And he wasn't exactly brilliant at holding a note either.  Levon Helm and Richard Manuel, god bless 'em both, should have been the only vocalists.  Nothing against Danko otherwise, but it's bearable up until about 1972, after which I find it very difficult to listen to any of the Danko-sung songs live.

fat_abbott

Would anyone with a spare week or two like to tackle Neil Young?

greenman

I'm trying to imagine Floyd with a Jon Anderson like vocalist....ugh....

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: greenman on July 11, 2016, 02:40:11 PM
I'm trying to imagine Floyd with a Jon Anderson like vocalist

Um...why?

What is point?

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on July 11, 2016, 02:45:28 PM
Um...why?

What is point?

I'd guess it's because his high-pitched whispiness is in direct contrast to Pink Floyd's "some snooker commentators have formed a band" vocals

(I quite like Pink Floyd actually but still)

greenman

Quote from: A Car With No Doors on July 11, 2016, 02:52:49 PM
I'd guess it's because his high-pitched whispiness is in direct contrast to Pink Floyd's "some snooker commentators have formed a band" vocals

(I quite like Pink Floyd actually but still)

...or because it wouldn't fit the material in the slightest.

Serge

Quote from: fat_abbott on July 11, 2016, 02:37:31 PM
Would anyone with a spare week or two like to tackle Neil Young?

Buffalo Springfield - 'Rust Never Sleeps': Great.
'Hawks & Doves' - 'This Note's For You': Interesting, not essential.
'Freedom' - 'Sleeps With Angels': Great again.
Thereafter: I have no interest.


Puce Moment

I really struggle with Neil Young. I think it's because of all the awful bands he has inspired, and in particular vocalists who mis-use his high-pitched drawl.

the hum

Simple Minds are one of those definitive "early stuff was great, but after that...oh christ" bands are they not? Doesn't quite tell the whole story though, as generally the first 5 albums are cited and then the advice is not to bother with anything subsequent, but to me their first 2 ("Life in a Day" in particular) are a tad meh and derivative. The real good shit is the subsequent trio of "Empires and Dance", "Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call" and "New Gold Dream". By the time of the latter they're already transitioning into their stadium era, but it's a kind of perfect storm album where they managed to successfully marry experimentation, pop hooks and big production.

After that, I have little time for "Sparkle in the Rain" (though that might be principally because I despise Waterfront), but really don't mind "Once Upon a Time". Yes it's stadium pomp, but at least it's not the stadium bloat of "Street Fighting Years" and manages to be cohesive and concise with plenty of memorable stuff.

Their later years and up 'til now seem to have consisted of some half-hearted attempts to imbue their albums with the flavour of their early stuff, but without ever really pulling it off. One big problem I think was losing a lot of their edge and uniqueness when bassist Derek Forbes departed after "Sparkle". At least they were good enough though to get over themselves and do the 5x5 tour a few years ago, which comprised set lists of material only up to and including "New Gold Dream". I suspect that was Jim Kerr's peace offering to fans from the early days, having slagged them off for their preciousness at their commercial height in the mid-80's.

the science eel

Quote from: the hum on July 11, 2016, 10:57:44 PM

After that, I have little time for "Sparkle in the Rain" (though that might be principally because I despise Waterfront), but really don't mind "Once Upon a Time". Yes it's stadium pomp, but at least it's not the stadium bloat of "Street Fighting Years" and manages to be cohesive and concise with plenty of memorable stuff.

Nice to hear that. I prefer the early stuff too, but that album is great. 'Sanctify Yourself' and 'All The Things She Said' are top-notch Minds.

purlieu

Oh yeah, their first two albums are pretty middling Magazine rip-offs really. There are some interesting moments on Reel to Real but they definitely don't know who they are at that point. Empires & Dance, Sons/Sister and New Gold Dream are the three classics to me, but I like Sparkle in the Rain and Once Upon a Time. The former is my favoured of the two: Speed Your Love to Me is a stupendously great pop track, The Kick Inside of Me manages to channel their early punk spirit brilliantly, and Shake Off the Ghosts is probably the most beautiful thing they did, and good to see them continuing to do instrumentals at that point in their career. But both of those albums are excellent stadium pop rock albums.

Street Fighting Years is a pain in the arse, because there are some really gorgeous bits in it, but it's so utterly pompous and has the two worst crimes of the late '80s - songs going on for twice their necessary length, and the 'planet making room of Magrathea' reverb preset on the snare - that it's just not possible to listen to. I'm actually quite fond of the follow up, Real Life, though. It's completely in the early '90s middle of the road vibe (Crowded House, Simply Red, Deacon Blue) but the songs are mostly pretty decent.

After that they somehow forgot how to write songs. I've listened to far too much '90s and '00s Simple Minds and none of the songs stick in my head after they finish (or, bizarrely, even as they're happening). 2014's Big Music had some surprisingly strong songs on it - although Jim Kerr's voice has turned into a pretty bland croon - which was surprising as a run of seven fucking terrible albums is usually way more than enough to kill off any band's creativity.

the hum

Quote from: the science eel on July 11, 2016, 11:15:23 PM
Nice to hear that. I prefer the early stuff too, but that album is great. 'Sanctify Yourself' and 'All The Things She Said' are top-notch Minds.

Yeah. I think Mick MacNeil's work in the keyboard department on that one really helps it stand out. He was another big loss when he departed (not that he was able to save the turgid "Street Fighting Years" though). Just as Forbes gave them an edge, MacNeil contributed a lot of the memorable melodies and soundscapes.

the hum

Quote from: purlieu on July 11, 2016, 11:36:04 PM
After that they somehow forgot how to write songs. I've listened to far too much '90s and '00s Simple Minds and none of the songs stick in my head after they finish (or, bizarrely, even as they're happening). 2014's Big Music had some surprisingly strong songs on it - although Jim Kerr's voice has turned into a pretty bland croon - which was surprising as a run of seven fucking terrible albums is usually way more than enough to kill off any band's creativity.

Very much this. Their output at this point is like trying to chew on thin air. The only stand-out I can think of is the instrumental Androgyny from "Neapolis", which I think was just Charlie Burchill on his own mucking about with a Korg Triton or some such.

PaulTMA

Blood Diamonds, the original (pre-Big Music) version, was a damn good tune I thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ukroOV5wP8
Blindfolded and Spirited Away too.  I did try and listen to all their 90s and 00s albums a couple of times and was largely bored to death.  Hypnotized is an OK INXS song I guess.

I have to stick up for Real To Real Cacophony as possibly their best album, though.  Derivative of Magazine it may be, but they did it damn well, equalling or bettering them at their own game at points.  Factory, Calling Your Name, Scar and Premonition.... four of their best songs imo.

the hum

Quote from: PaulTMA on July 12, 2016, 12:03:18 AM
Blood Diamonds, the original (pre-Big Music) version, was a damn good tune I thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ukroOV5wP8

That's really not bad actually.

The 5x5 Live album is genuinely worth having if you're OK with some late-middle agers clattering through some of their early stuff. It's all surprisingly energetic, even if Kerr's "lemme see those hands" schtick is a tad grating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMvMpRY5mVk

sutin

DEVO

Early avant-punk-rock

1978 - Are We Not Men?
1979 - Duty Now For The Future

Weird synthpop/MTV darlings

1980 - Freedom Of Choice
1981 - New Traditionalists
1982 - Oh, No! It's DEVO

Commercial but unpopular dancepop

1984 - Shout
1988 - Total DEVO
1990 - Smooth Noodle Maps

Very modern-sounding return

2010 - Something For Everybody

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: sutin on August 25, 2020, 09:49:39 PM
DEVO

Early avant-punk-rock

1978 - Are We Not Men?
1979 - Duty Now For The Future

Weird synthpop/MTV darlings

1980 - Freedom Of Choice
1981 - New Traditionalists
1982 - Oh, No! It's DEVO

Commercial but unpopular dancepop

1984 - Shout
1988 - Total DEVO
1990 - Smooth Noodle Maps

Very modern-sounding return

2010 - Something For Everybody
Seems to be missing the point of the title of the thread? And be four years late?

SteveDave

Quote from: daf on June 27, 2016, 10:24:29 PM
I think Ted Chippington was more of a fan of their stuff before "they went a bit weird"  [nb]. . . one weird, roughly speaking[/nb]

My Mum shared this opinion. When the Red and the Blue LPs came out on CD she only bought the Red one. "They went weird after this"

Luckily my friend Ian's mum didn't hold the same beliefs so I got to tape it off her.

Fuckinell- I thought this was a new thread.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: SteveDave on August 26, 2020, 10:31:10 AM
My Mum shared this opinion. When the Red and the Blue LPs came out on CD she only bought the Red one. "They went weird after this"

Luckily my friend Ian's mum didn't hold the same beliefs so I got to tape it off her.

Fuckinell- I thought this was a new thread.

I prefer the earlier posts as these new posts seem to have lost the spark but hopefully there will be a return to form now the thread has got back together.

MiddleRabbit

Quote from: SteveDave on August 26, 2020, 10:31:10 AM
My Mum shared this opinion. When the Red and the Blue LPs came out on CD she only bought the Red one. "They went weird after this"

Luckily my friend Ian's mum didn't hold the same beliefs so I got to tape it off her.

Fuckinell- I thought this was a new thread.

Me too.

Still, I remember the late 70s - early 80s and the sixties music that was played on radio and tv was generally the early 60s stuff - the black and white sixties, I suppose.  The Walker Brothers, Sandie Shaw, early Dusty Springfield, The Shadows sort of thing.  The only Beatles records I remember getting played were up to,  but not really including Rubber Soul era.  The change seemed to come in about 1987, with the 'It was 20 years ago today' thing becoming, I don't know, pertinent?  After that, the floodgates were opened and it was all post 1965 stuff that was played.

It was exactly the same in terms of the films that were on telly.  The black and white, kitchen sink films (Taste of Honey, Loneliness of The Long Distance Runner, Room At The Top, etc) were regularly on telly, which coincided with The Smiths' references to them.

I suppose the mid eighties psychedelic revival was inevitably more focused on, er, 60s psychedelia, but it seemed to be mainly in thrall to the American take on that, 13th Floor Elevators, Pebbles/Nuggets garage psych scene, as opposed to the Edwardiana/obsession with tea and gardens of the English variety.

TL:DR - the sixties was a game of two halves, Brian, and the early eighties was mainly interested in the first half of it and the fascination with the second, colour, half went on well into the nineties.

MiddleRabbit


El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: SteveDave on August 26, 2020, 10:31:10 AM
My Mum shared this opinion. When the Red and the Blue LPs came out on CD she only bought the Red one. "They went weird after this"

Luckily my friend Ian's mum didn't hold the same beliefs so I got to tape it off her.

Fuckinell- I thought this was a new thread.

Same with my Mum. She loves all of their first 5 albums, plays them constantly, but Help! is the latest one she'll listen to. I'm more of a mid-period fan, Magical Mystery Tour and Sgt. Pepper in particularly. Never really got into the late period stuff.

JaDanketies

I would've got an Opeth tattoo 15 years ago but they decided to eschew extreme metal in favour of prog rock. I'm sure there are loads of folk who like them now but think their earlier stuff is unlistenable. In fact my fave album is their first one.

Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir are two other extreme metal acts who had an early-to-mid-career peak although admittedly I've not listened to an awful lot of CoF's latest stuff. What I've heard suggests they're back on form.

Eminem needs to lose all his money and get addicted to drugs pronto.