"I prefer the early stuff" Vs "Oh, they got so much better"

[greenman]

It's rubbish, that one. Just a load of wispy 'soundscapes'. I'd take pretty much any other Can album over it.

Well I'd disagree with that and bar quantum physics at the end I wouldn't call it "wispy", indeed I think Future Days whilst better goes more in that direction.

[Paaaaul]

It's rubbish, that one. Just a load of wispy 'soundscapes'. I'd take pretty much any other Can album over it.

Another disagreement here. I think it's pretty much on a level with Future Days.

[Dirty Boy]

It's rubbish, that one. Just a load of wispy 'soundscapes'. I'd take pretty much any other Can album over it.

Another disagreement here. Chain Reaction is one of their finest songs.

You're wrong about Into My Arms too.

[Dirty Boy]

Has anyone mentioned Prince yet? Didn't he fall off a cliff creatively in about 1991?

[great_badir]

Has anyone mentioned Prince yet? Didn't he fall off a cliff creatively in about 1991?

Brundle mentioned Prince in his opening salvo.

But nah - Prince's career has always been similar to that of Frank Zappa's - up and down like, to quote John Shuttleworth, a bride's nightie.  He released some belting stuff right up until quite recently.  But also released some dreadful stuff right up until quite recently.  That's what tends to happen when you're so prolific.

[Dirty Boy]

Brundle mentioned Prince in his opening salvo.

Ah, so he did, sorry (i hate it when people don't read the threads they're posting in).

What's a good recent Prince album then?

[great_badir]

Hit N Run 2, 3121, Art Official Age and Musicology are all brilliant, in my opinion.  In fact, Musicology is in my top 5 Prince albums.  I also like Lotusflower/MPLSound, Plectrumelectrum and Hit N Run 1 (but nowhere near as good as 2), but most people think they're average.  Loads rate Planet Earth quite highly, but I think it's a bit shit.

There are, apparently, some great albums yet to come too, when the obligatory releasing of the vaults begins.

[Dirty Boy]

Enough to be getting on with there, thanks!

[the science eel]

Another disagreement here. Chain Reaction is one of their finest songs.

You're wrong about Into My Arms too.

get buggered

[Dirty Boy]

Shan't!

[Brundle-Fly]

Is I Want More by Can regarded well with the fans? It seems to be their most accessible track as an entry point; which of course is a big no no for irk-able purists.

Celebrating its fortieth birthday this very year!

Pure jeu!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0nfjguTclg

[23 Daves]

Is I Want More by Can regarded well with the fans? It seems to be their most accessible track as an entry point; which of course is a big no no for irk-able purists.

It seems to be accepted well enough. I often DJ with it and find that it gets a really good response from the known Can fans and the rest of the room.

[Serge]

I really like it, and its sister song, '...And More'. It was the first thing I ever heard by them, though, and after having read about them in 'Krautrocksampler', couldn't reconcile this slightly cheesy pop song with the band that Copey described in there. Of course, it doesn't help that in the TOTP clip, Michael Karoli is missing, and has been replaced by a stand-in with an afro fright-wig and shades. (Or that the TOTP clip is introduced by Noel Edmonds, who shouldn't exist in the same world as Krautrock.)

[Funcrusher]

Is I Want More by Can regarded well with the fans? It seems to be their most accessible track as an entry point; which of course is a big no no for irk-able purists.

Celebrating its fortieth birthday this very year!

Pure jeu!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0nfjguTclg

For me it's their last moment of greatness. Their albums up to and including "Soon Over Babaluma" are probably my favourite music ever. I have periodically tried to get into the later albums, but without success. Any talk about 'Future Days' or 'Soon Over Babluma' being no good are just crazy talk.

I got into Cabaret Voltaire in their Virgin/Some Bizarre era, and still have a deep and abiding love for it, and only really got into the earlier stuff later on, whereas I know for a lot of people they lost it when they left Rough Trade.

[holyzombiejesus]

Felt, Cherry Red vs Creation years. I prefer the latter but someone - I think on here - dismissed the Duffy era as 'kitsch'. The cheeky so-and-so.

[Nowhere Man]

Sam Cooke most often gets praised for the recordings he did in the few years before his death, 1962-1964. This is inarguably his peak because its where the stuff like the Night Beat Album, Live at Harlem Square and masterpieces of perfect pop like Change Is Gonna Come, Bring It On Home To Me, Nothing Can Change This Love, Another Saturday Night, Good Times, Shake etc. come from.

But many fans would argue that he was just as good when it came to recording Gospel Music with the Soul Stirrers, and his earlier Pop hits are just as brilliant, such as You Send Me, You Were Made For Me, Chain Gang, Wonderful World, Summertime etc. There was quite a bit of filler on his earlier studio albums,[nb]but still definitely worth checking those out[/nb] all in all though its a shame we lost him so early as its devastating to think of how much amazing music he could have made in the years that followed. (Arguably the peak years of the Soul Genre)

[greenman]

For me it's their last moment of greatness. Their albums up to and including "Soon Over Babaluma" are probably my favourite music ever. I have periodically tried to get into the later albums, but without success. Any talk about 'Future Days' or 'Soon Over Babluma' being no good are just crazy talk.

Of the latter albums I personally find Saw Delight the most consistent and I would say as well that whilst I love All Gates Open the last thing they did that was that forward looking is I'd say Sunshine Day and Night, Eno and Byrne were most likely listening to the more overt African influence I'd guess.

Last really amazing thing I'v heard from them though is this live version of Dizzy Dizzy from the same year...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOfWKzMgeac

Its funky enough to achieve the impossible getting a west german 70's student to tap his foot slightly.

[great_badir]

Sam Cooke most often gets praised for the recordings he did in the few years before his death, 1962-1964. This is inarguably his peak because its where the stuff like the Night Beat Album, Live at Harlem Square and masterpieces of perfect pop like Change Is Gonna Come, Bring It On Home To Me, Nothing Can Change This Love, Another Saturday Night, Good Times, Shake etc. come from.

But many fans would argue that he was just as good when it came to recording Gospel Music with the Soul Stirrers, and his earlier Pop hits are just as brilliant, such as You Send Me, You Were Made For Me, Chain Gang, Wonderful World, Summertime etc. There was quite a bit of filler on his earlier studio albums,[nb]but still definitely worth checking those out[/nb] all in all though its a shame we lost him so early as its devastating to think of how much amazing music he could have made in the years that followed. (Arguably the peak years of the Soul Genre)

On a sort-of similar note but not, am I the only person that thinks Marvin Gaye only had a sweet spot for a VERY short space of time, right in the middle of his career?  I'm thinking What's Going On, Trouble Man and Let's Get It On.  And that's it.  Prior to that it was all happy clappy white-audience soul-less soul and ten-a-penny love songs and duets, and after that he became a sweaty sex pesty parody of himself, stripping off for old ladies during his concerts. 

But those three albums...

[non capisco]

Last really amazing thing I'v heard from them though is this live version of Dizzy Dizzy from the same year...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOfWKzMgeac
Its funky enough to achieve the impossible getting a west german 70's student to tap his foot slightly.

Ha ha, that static fucking audience in those uncomfortable school chairs. The band having to entertain themselves, Rosko Gee's putting the effort in, the audience resolutely refuse to follow suit as if appreciative rhythmic response is something unseemly. Like if Can played in London now, basically.

Apart from that audience whose skulls you just want to bash together that is a great clip. A note was passed backstage fifteen minutes after the show ended that read 'We deem you above adequate' which was the cue for an encore.

[Noodle Lizard]

I much prefer 70s crooner Tom Waits to 80-90s character-from-a-Tim-Burton-movie Tom Waits, though the critical consensus actually seems to be the opposite.

He'd actually be one of my examples of someone who gets better as he gets older.  His last two albums were fucking excellent, and I probably prefer them to any of his 70s stuff - a lot of which is great, but often feels quite affected.

That's definitely a compliment, by the way, I think most artists would want to continually improve rather than peak early, and yet far too many bands rest on the laurels of one or two good albums.  Some bands I've seen live, having just released a new album, maybe only play one new song.  If you don't even have confidence that you can still make good music, just stop.

[Dr Rock]

I prefer The Smiths after they stopped being so jangly. There's good stuff on all the albums but I never much cared for jangly indie. From Panic onwards I prefer how Marr plays the guitar.

[the science eel]

For me it's their last moment of greatness. Their albums up to and including "Soon Over Babaluma" are probably my favourite music ever. I have periodically tried to get into the later albums, but without success. Any talk about 'Future Days' or 'Soon Over Babluma' being no good are just crazy talk.

Future Days is great! It's the next one I have a problem with. They lost Damo and they lost the ability to spin magic. It's a fairly obvious drop-off in terms of quality.

[Pepotamo1985]

Is there much divergence on when The Fall were at their best? I think it's difficult to segment - when do you stop calling their stuff 'early stuff'? 1984? 1990? Later? They've had so many distinct eras, most of which have been extremely prolific, and each offers its own share of brilliance and shite, so it's hard to say.

[popcorn]

I'm huge Floyd fan, and a Division Bell apologist. It love it like I love the smell of a new car. I've read many criticisms of it, I know it's widely derided and I can well imagine why, but I'd be interested in hearing about it in detail from Cabbers. Why do you personally think it's shite?

[greenman]

Future Days is great! It's the next one I have a problem with. They lost Damo and they lost the ability to spin magic. It's a fairly obvious drop-off in terms of quality.

..and the alternative argument would be that as big or bigger an issue wasn't losing Damo but rather the shift to attempting to be more commercial including recording multi tracked songs which happened post Babluma.

I actually find Can live stuff from the latter years more interesting because it gives us something we increasingly didn't get on the albums where as the earlier albums were mostly edited live performances in the studio.

[biggytitbo]

Clearly illumina is a more mature work, but it lacks the raw energy of Alicia rules the world imho.

[Pepotamo1985]

I'm huge Floyd fan, and a Division Bell apologist. It love it like I love the smell of a new car. I've read many criticisms of it, I know it's widely derided and I can well imagine why, but I'd be interested in hearing about it in detail from Cabbers. Why do you personally think it's shite?

I'm probably not going to add anything that hasn't been said already, but... it's dreary, white middle aged man music at its dullest. There's zero energy here - its pace rarely exceeds meandering, and the endless walls of watery synths drown everything. Even at its best (Take It Back, WDYWFM) it sounds like 90s U2, which isn't the most ringing endorsement in the world. What do you like about it?

[popcorn]

I'm probably not going to add anything that hasn't been said already, but... it's dreary, white middle aged man music at its dullest. There's zero energy here - its pace rarely exceeds meandering, and the endless walls of watery synths drown everything. Even at its best (Take It Back, WDYWFM) it sounds like 90s U2, which isn't the most ringing endorsement in the world. What do you like about it?

Yeah, this is in line with my expectations, I just think it's interesting to hear what people reckon. I totally get what you mean by everything here.

Um - I can't say it's my favourite Floyd by any means. But I have a weird soft spot for it.

A lot of the production is obviously dated. The close delay/reverb on the drums on What Do You Want From Me always jumps out at me as ghastly, for example. And the piano sound is really synthetic and grim. So really a lot of what I like the album is just the songwriting itself, the melodies, the chord progressions, the solos. I like how largely straight-ahead it is, without being too 80s poppy like A Momentary Lapse of Reason (an album I am happy to dismiss unreservedly). I love the ascending chorus on What Do You Want From Me, for example. I definitely get the U2 comparison, but I see Take it Back as more of a development of the delayed-guitar sound Gilmour had on Run Like Hell rather than the Edge wanking around.

High Hopes is one of my favourite Floyd songs. I find it very sad, and powerful; it makes me feel nostalgic for something I never knew. You could call this one plodding but I the words I'd use instead would be heavy, crushing, inevitable. And the solo at the end, man, when that kicks in coupled with the line "for ever and ever", it gets me every time. I love the three-note hook doubled on the piano, strings and solo, too, simple and effective.

I suppose a big part of it is just that I could listen to Gilmour soloing forever, which is weird because I'm usually not into that sort of thing, and as a guitarist myself it's not something I'm ever drawn to. He's the only "guitarist's guitarist" I give a shit about, really. Gilmour's whammy use on Marooned is exquisite, and actually, I think, still quite an unusual use of the pedal... which is weird, because all he does with it is go for previously-impossible pitch bends, which is presumably what the pedal was originally developed for, whereas most acts (Radiohead, Muse, Rage Against the Machine) have used it to exploit the sound artefacts and fuck with the timbre. I think it took a guitarist of a bygone era of PROPER GUITAR SOLOS to use it in this "correct" way and I find that quite interesting. I do love the brief moment of pitchy weirdness around 3:40 though.

It's definitely an album that, you know, if I met someone and they said "you know what album I fucking love? The Division Bell!" would set some alarms off. In the wrong hands it could be an indicator of some truly dreadful music taste. It's an album I only enjoy having undergone the proper training.

[the science eel]

Is there much divergence on when The Fall were at their best? I think it's difficult to segment - when do you stop calling their stuff 'early stuff'? 1984? 1990? Later? They've had so many distinct eras, most of which have been extremely prolific, and each offers its own share of brilliance and shite, so it's hard to say.

I'd say 'early' goes up to 1983/1984 (i.e. when they signed to BB).

I don't think they put a foot wrong until about 1987 - the first album-free year. And then those two lacklustre LPs in 1988. They were no longer reliable.

[greenman]

I'm probably not going to add anything that hasn't been said already, but... it's dreary, white middle aged man music at its dullest. There's zero energy here - its pace rarely exceeds meandering, and the endless walls of watery synths drown everything. Even at its best (Take It Back, WDYWFM) it sounds like 90s U2, which isn't the most ringing endorsement in the world. What do you like about it?

I wouldn't disagree with the U2 comparison although I must admit I do enjoy Achtung Baby a lot which I think is a good deal better than the Division Bell. In both cases really your dealing with pretty straight ahead stadium rock given a sonic facelift, the 90's Edge even sounds a good deal like Gilmour when it comes to soloing.

A popcorn says the production on the Division Bell isn't great and personally I tend to listen to the first disk of Pulse when I want to hear some Gilmour era Floyd, most fo the best tracks sounding a good deal better.

I would still say it has a case for being the best Floyd album since Animals though, the Wall has better moments but a lot of it I find unlistenable moaning. Again I would say Gilmours solo album from 78 is better than either by some way, as close as you'll get to a classic Floyd album without the high concepts.