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Sonic Mania - a new 2D Sonic game that looks like it will be good

Started by Twed, July 23, 2016, 02:07:26 PM

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AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: popcorn on August 23, 2017, 04:03:00 PM
Half of them are the original stages.

And the other half are new. Even some of the old ones have had some tweaks to throw us.

popcorn

Well HALF OF THEM ARE OLD!!

I don't actually love this game that much and I'm not sure why not. I'll have to have a think.

AsparagusTrevor

I don't like the bonus stages and most of the bosses but the levels themselves are just brilliant, close to perfect.

Consignia

They really could have done with toning down the bosses. I mean no one played Sonic for boss fights, right?

The Blue Sphere bonus stages are real turd, I mean they are so thankless and full of tedious traps. I finished them all today, to be rewarded with something which is quite the punch in the face.

However, I've grown to really like the Chaos Emerald stages, once you've worked out their tricks, they can be quite fun. And earning Super Sonic and blasting through stages is an additional blast.

I'm not sure how I feel about Sonic as a whole. I loved it as a kid, but really struggled to get into latter day Sonics, post-Adventure I never felt into it. But there's something about the Mega-Drivey Sonics which are just easy to whack on, do a few a levels and have some fun. And this is where Mania has scratched an itch. I think it would have been a load better if there had been more new Zones, as that's where the game feels freshest.

popcorn

Right. I was a massive, massive Sega dork as a nipper, used to mod on a Sega forum, and Sonic 3 and Knuckles in particular is one of my most-played games. So I'm the expert here, everyone else can be quiet and listen to me now please.

This is the first Sonic game I've bought in almost 20 years. A startling thought.

The game is overall good. It's good. They've done a good job. Well done them.

The extra animation is lovely, particularly the extra frames on Sonic's early acceleration. Makes a noticeable difference. They've got the physics 100% right, which is more than Sega has ever managed to achieve with its slew of half-baked "back to basics" games (Sonic 4, Generations, blah blah). These guys knew what they were doing. They understand Sonic.

In the true spirit of devoted nerddom, I shall now complain about small details at length.

The music occasionally dissolves into bland chiptune. Like the title/invincibility theme, which is grim. (Only Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 had good title themes; the Sonic 3 one is also grim.)

People associate classic Sonic with upbeat carefree happy times, which is reasonable, but the classic games also had the occasional sense of dread or eeriness to them, which is missing here. Remember how menacing and doomy the Sonic 1 boss music is? Actually, forget that, remember how scary the opening notes of the Sonic 3 final boss theme are? Remember seeing the Death Egg gazing down at you in Lava Reef, and firing at the end of Act 2? Remember the first time you got to Doomsday Zone, and you shat yourself? There's none of that here - it's all happy happy manic manic all the time. I was lulled into a sense of dreamy "ooohness" during Lava Reef Act 2, but that's blown away by a boss who's basically a freewheeling clown on a unicycle, mood ruined.

The bosses are all over the place generally. They're just too goofy or too elaborate or both. The Hydrocity Zone boss where you get to pilot Eggman's ship is the equivalent of a shit novelty song, ie a gag at the expense of writing something that makes sense. My biggest disappointment was Metal Sonic, who has always been a disappointment. If I'm going to fight an "anti-Sonic", he should mirror Sonic's speed and movesets and essential character, not sit in a cockpit shooting fireballs.

It's cute seeing the classic stages remixed, and they're well designed, but I do hope the franchise moves beyond nostalgia after this. Imagine if this game had come out on Saturn in 1996. It would have been eviscerated because it's 50% recycled material; it's only acceptable today because we've had 20 years of shit between. I'm still waiting for that genuine next step, something that launches Sonic into the modern generation and doesn't suck. That something might be 2D or 3D. I hope the Mania team is allowed to deliver it next.

Quote from: Consignia on August 24, 2017, 10:34:09 PM
However, I've grown to really like the Chaos Emerald stages, once you've worked out their tricks, they can be quite fun.

Yes, I came to enjoy them too. In fact, they're probably the best special stages the franchise has had, though they were always more technically dazzling than fun. They have a real spirit of blue-skies arcade Sega fun, and the balance of grabbing rings and speedballs/blue balls/balls (there is no way of describing this that doesn't sound rude) works well.

The problem is that they're a pain in the arse to get to, and require a lot of trial and error, so by the time you've finished the game and are trying to get all the emeralds, you inevitably have to play the same 30 seconds of GHZ Act 1 over and over and over again just for another try. This was a problem in the old games too, but hey.

popcorn

Actually, this one really is a pipe dream, but you know what I'd love to get the Sonic Mania treatment?

Phantasy Star Online. An expanded, remixed version of the original PSO games, with old and new levels, old and new features, but kept lo-fi and low-commitment. Jesus, I'd pay through the nose.

colacentral

I got this today and after some initial euphoria at the feel of it, and the authentic music and sounds, I started to feel that too much of it was essentially on rails. It feels like a fan-made game in that sense (in a bad way) in how it feels like the main idea alot of the time is "sonic should be able to go really fast most of the time and not have to slow down." It feels like being on a theme park ride, or like the Mario Maker levels everyone made that required you to just stay still and not do anything.

The original Sonic had alot more platforming skill to it; you had to be alot more aware of pits, spikes and enemies and take your time in spots. I'm not getting enough of that basic platforming in the first three stages that I've played so far.

Replies From View

You know that noise when Sonic drops all his rings?

Well they should have that in real life.

biggytitbo

You know how you could plug sonic 2 and 3 into the sonic and knuckles cartridge?


They should do that in real life.

AsparagusTrevor


Lemming

As part of the PC master race, I'm still waiting two more days for this to come out. Behold, the exemplary patience of the PC ubermensch.

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 27, 2017, 11:43:15 AM
You know how you could plug sonic 2 and 3 into the sonic and knuckles cartridge?


They should do that in real life.

Furry artists have been plugging Sonic into Knuckles for years now.

popcorn


Kelvin

Brought this today, after a week or more of continually hearing it was possibly the best Sonic game ever made.

Well, if this is Sonic at his best, no wonder he's been fucked for years. I mean, the game's not bad, but my god, there's so much fundamentally wrong with the actual gameplay. At least half of the game feels like it's on rails, maybe with you pushing left or right into a spring, or jumping onto a pad, then launching off again for another roller-coaster ride. I suppose, while these sections are generally too long and too many, they are at least quite exhilarating.

The problem is that the other half of the game is more traditional skill based platforming, but with a character (or characters) who simply aren't suited to that style of gameplay; they're too slow and too cumbersome. The bosses are about the only sustained sections where actual skill is required, but of the ones I've met so far, even they're a wildly inconsistent bunch; the helicopter boss at the end of 3:1 was absolute shit, with your movement and the timing required made even more difficult than usual.

I mean, I get the appeal, I suppose. The game looks and sounds gorgeous, the "on rails" sections are thrilling, and the better platforming sections are okay. I just think that, generally, the gameplay - or what little gameplay there is - frankly feels terribly subpar. In fact, I bet if you took out the sections where you just roll and run, as well as the bosses at the end, you'd probably have only a minute or so of actual skill based platforming per act. 

edit: I've only completed the first three worlds and played some of the fourth, so maybe the gameplay improves significantly after that.

colacentral

I agree, that's pretty much what I was trying to say above; glad I'm not the only one. As I said, the fan-element of it has been hyped as a positive thing but I think it's a negative, as it's everything hyper and to the extreme, overstuffed like a typical Mario Maker level (constantly going fast, so put on rails to facilitate it, too many bosses, etc. You want games to have more bosses when you're ten years old.) It has all the annoying hallmarks of a fan made game, except the difficulty, which non-professional designers tend to make overly difficult, but is actually at a reasonable level in this, if not a bit on the easy side.

The level design is far too noisy and showy for me, trying to be too clever with all the multiple paths, and ends up being unmemorable and messy.

I enjoy it in short bursts, but mainly for the superficial elements, like the sounds, flashing lights, that opening "Sega" sound. The level design leaves alot to be desired though, and to me it's not a very good representation of early Sonic, which was alot more restrained and much more in the standard 2d platformer mould than maybe many care to admit. I'd much rather just go back and play those.


Kelvin

I've played more zones now, and feel slightly more positive about it on balance. I still think that the way Sonic controls is too cumbersome for quality platforming, but there's definitely been a much better balance of skill based gameplay vs the "on rails" sections in later levels. There remains a constant tug of war between furstration and enjoyment, though.

Sometimes I'll be playing for a minute of so and really enjoying it all; an imaginative bit of level design, great music, great visuals; I start to understand why some people love this series so much. Then, suddenly, I bounce off a spring into an unforseeable enemy, or drop down onto some spikes I couldn't possibly have known were there, or, in the case of one boss, ride a platform up into instant death without any indication that I had to stand on the middle platforms instead of the ones at the side. If just feels like pure trial and error, at these points.

One thing I do think the game does well, though, is creating a sense of countless branching paths, yet always keeping you moving in the right direction. In levels with these many routes, and the option to move left and right, as well as vertically, across the screen, that's no small achievement. 

Kelvin

By the way, do any Sonic fans know if the three animal outlaws from the Western level are from another classic Sonic game? They seemed a pretty odd inclusion otherwise.

popcorn

Yep, they're from Sonic the Fighters, an obscure 90s arcade fighting spin-off. Their inclusion is an example of the kind of thing that I find a bit off-putting in the game, a focus on arcane nostalgia when they could have made a more meaningful boss encounter.

Consignia

Quote from: Kelvin on August 29, 2017, 01:17:16 AM
By the way, do any Sonic fans know if the three animal outlaws from the Western level are from another classic Sonic game? They seemed a pretty odd inclusion otherwise.

They were all in the Sonic Fighters, but the purple Weasel thing was also in a Game Gear game; Sonic Triple Trouble. Hence the 8-Bit sound effects during the fight. They are cult favourite amongst the Sonic community, and I believe they appear a lot in the comics.

madhair60

Sonic games at their best present you a series of momentum-focused playgrounds to navigate as you please. The "ring" system is your crutch, and the reason why it's not really a problem if you get hit a lot. Either you like that style or you don't. It's certainly not yer oldschool Mario-style linear course (which I am absolutely not criticising, I fucking love Mario), it's a wilfully different experience. You play and replay the stages. I'm still finding new things in Sonic 3 and I've been playing it pretty much since release day in '93.

Jerzy Bondov

Woah what the fuck is this fucking octopus boss all about?! Fucking impossible.

popcorn

Quote from: Kelvin on August 29, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
in the case of one boss, ride a platform up into instant death without any indication that I had to stand on the middle platforms instead of the ones at the side.

This one is just horrible design, yes.

Kelvin

Quote from: madhair60 on August 29, 2017, 10:56:46 AM
Sonic games at their best present you a series of momentum-focused playgrounds to navigate as you please. The "ring" system is your crutch, and the reason why it's not really a problem if you get hit a lot.

That's an interesting take, I have to admit. Most defenders of the series seem to answer these types of critisisms by saying "you're playing it wrong", despite the game frequently offering you no alternative or indicators, and actively encouraging a play style that makes getting hit an occasional inevitability. To an extent, I can actually get behind the idea that they expect you to get hit unfairly but offer the rings as a way to survive them until you've learnt the route. That at least least seems more reasonable than simply denying these moments exist.

Kelvin

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on August 29, 2017, 12:27:54 PM
Woah what the fuck is this fucking octopus boss all about?! Fucking impossible.

You need to take out the small black cannons first. The two that rise up on either side of the body.

madhair60

Quote from: Kelvin on August 29, 2017, 01:09:42 PM
That's an interesting take, I have to admit. Most defenders of the series seem to answer these types of critisisms by saying "you're playing it wrong", despite the game frequently offering you no alternative or indicators, and actively encouraging a play style that makes getting hit an occasional inevitability. To an extent, I can actually get behind the idea that they expect you to get hit unfairly but offer the rings as a way to survive them until you've learnt the route. That at least least seems more reasonable than simply denying these moments exist.

For me a great part of the appeal is that there is no real way to play it wrong. I'm a huge fan of the series, it was the first game I ever played and I never really stopped. The freewheeling design just does so much for me.

It's not much that the cheaper moments don't exist, it's that they are signposted, to some degree, to advanced players. But of course, one can't be expected to know that even on the first few plays. There are things to watch out for that signal trouble, there are ways to mitigate them (for example always going into a roll when descending a slope in order to increase speed and render yourself invincible to everything except spikes and pits) and eliminate the problem.

But the main thing is, and this is the actual reason these games are so popular, anyone can play them. Thanks to the incredibly simple inputs (d-pad and jump button), and the rings system, more or less anyone can make it through to the end. And I mean anyone - one reason Sonic fandom is mocked and associated with autism/learning disability is because of the simple fact that in my experience (working with autistic/the learning disabled), they fucking love the blue cunt. Easy to understand and play, momentum-based gameplay easy to parse and logical, he's got a big face with easy to understand expressions (ala Thomas the Tank Engine), there's immediate feedback, immediate reward. Outside of the mental (this is a flippant joke) it's also popular with young children for similar reasons, gamers who - literally - only play Sonic, hardcore speedrunners, Let's Play folk, everyone. Everyone fucking likes it except when they don't, which is often people who are advanced gamers (while not speedrunning technical wizards, necessarily) who (quite understandably) might not understand why a game that's so simplistic and seemingly clumsy is so beloved.

Hmm, got on a bit of a ramble there.

popcorn

I have to say I can't think of a single moment in a classic Sonic game (including Mania, I suppose) when I ran into something I didn't think it was my fault for running into. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing an example.

The exception is the spike-platform-instant-death thing mentioned earlier, which is indeed terrible, but not the kind of thing people usually are complaining about - it involves standing on a platform and being suddenly propelled into the ceiling and crushed to death, rather than being encouraged to speed headlong into hidden danger. And made me say "oh fuck off!" the first time it killed me, partly because I hadn't seen it in a Sonic game before.

madhair60

Quote from: popcorn on August 29, 2017, 01:46:50 PM
I have to say I can't think of a single moment in a classic Sonic game (including Mania, I suppose) when I ran into something I didn't think it was my fault for running into. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing an example.

The exception is the spike-platform-instant-death thing mentioned earlier, which is indeed terrible, but not the kind of thing people usually are complaining about - it involves standing on a platform and being suddenly propelled into the ceiling and crushed to death, rather than being encouraged to speed headlong into hidden danger. And made me say "oh fuck off!" the first time it killed me, partly because I hadn't seen it in a Sonic game before.

There's a floating platform with a Shield Monitor on it in Mania's GHZ that floats upwards straight into a spike trap. Mania got problems.

The thing is... and I'm not saying anyone's "playing it wrong" (the only classic Sonic it's possible to play wrong is CD, but I digress), but I've seen people running across the bridges in Green Hill on the original, getting hit by the jumping fish and nearly exploding with anger. Even though there's an upward slope to pointedly slow you down to get a look at the trap before you have to tackle it, and that any input trivialises it - a roll, or a jump, and they can't touch you.

Sonic is fascinating.

Lemming

Quote from: madhair60 on August 29, 2017, 01:38:57 PM
But the main thing is, and this is the actual reason these games are so popular, anyone can play them. Thanks to the incredibly simple inputs (d-pad and jump button), and the rings system, more or less anyone can make it through to the end.

This is the ultimate truth of Sonic. That's what endeared them to me over Mario games when I was a kid, especially SMB3. I didn't understand why anyone would want to endure the nightmare bullshit scrolling screen airship levels from SMB3 where you get fucked to death in offscreen cannonball crossfire unless you can do an insane pixel-perfect dodge-jump, when they could instead be zooming through stages at supersonic speed and feeling nigh-invincible by just holding the down arrow to roll.

As an adult I can appreciate how well-made the old Mario games are and how basic and kiddy-friendly Sonic is in comparison, but I don't think my opinion on how fun each game is has really changed much.

Kelvin

Quote from: madhair60 on August 29, 2017, 01:38:57 PM
Everyone fucking likes it except when they don't, which is often people who are advanced gamers (while not speedrunning technical wizards, necessarily) who (quite understandably) might not understand why a game that's so simplistic and seemingly clumsy is so beloved.

I'm just not convinced I buy that, tbh. I don't know any critic whose said the games are too simplistic, and I certainly haven't. As you say, the simplicity is part of the appeal. I just feel like the game is full of little frustrations and design choices that could only be justified once you've learnt them through trial and error. The helicopter boss, for example, has an absolutely awful control scheme and makes landing a hit infuriating, the first oil boss offers no indicators that you should stand in the middle, not the sides, and on one occasion I had to run down a tunnel before some spikes fell on me, but at the far end there was an enemy I had no way of avoiding while moving at that speed. Then in the wider sense, there's the problem with Sonic controlling so sluggishly when he's got no momentum, which makes bosses and more careful platforming frustrating a lot of the time.

As I say, I don't hate the game. I just feel like I'm on a constant rollercoaster ride of emotions; loving the experience one moment, then shouting at some bullshit game design the next.     

madhair60

You're absolutely right, because Mania is a flawed game by comparison to the airtight Mega Drive originals. It's a facsimile and far from a perfect one. The boss battles are uniformly bollocks and miss the point of the purposefully basic bosses of the older games, which were more like pinatas that were simply fun to smash as a reward for clearing the stage.

Mania's foremost problem is that it's far more concerned with fanwank than with compelling gameplay.

colacentral

I feel like defences of Sonic Mania here are dancing around it by defending Sonic as a whole. Sonic Mania is really not like the originals; it feels like a fake with gimmicky gameplay and bright colours to distract you. Original Sonic is not like this.