Author Topic: prog bands ranking  (Read 3387 times)

Endicott

  • I've done no research
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #150 on: June 10, 2019, 11:08:15 AM »
Genesis had a few "angry" moments - the end of Return of the Giant Hogweed (particularly the version on Live), The Knife and Back In New York City spring to mind.

"Oh no, this I can't believe. Oh Mary, they're asking us to leave." (particularly the version on Live)

Plenty of angry stuff especially in their earlier work. The end of Musical Box (particularly (again) the version on Live)

Entangled has quite angry lyrics juxtaposed with beautiful music.

Absorb the anus burn

  • I'll serve raw potatoes at my summer party
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #151 on: June 10, 2019, 11:18:10 AM »
Folk prog.
Avant prog.
RPI.
Canterbury.
Symphonic.
RIO.
Space Rock.
Kraut.
Zeuhl.
Progressive pop.

I love some prog I do and that's a fact.... Once you get through the biggie 25 bands, give the following a go...

Birth Control: German hard rock set who went all Gentle Giant in the mid 1970s to great effect.

Moving Gelatine Plates: fun band who can play like fuck - ask Blodders about them.

Cartoon: American intrusmental progress from the 1980s with a RIO bent.

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #152 on: June 10, 2019, 01:42:12 PM »
I've been getting into Yes recently, a sad sign that I have now turned into my dad, including Drama (1980) oddly enough.

Nothing odd about appreciating Drama. Machine Messiah and Tempus Fugit are two of my absolute favourite Yes tunes.

I wonder was it the last 'great' album of any of the 'classic' (anglophone) era prog bands ? (Relayer - 74, might be the more convention choice for yes).

gg - free hand 75

I agree with most of this list but Interview definitely deserves to be held in the same esteem as the preceding 6 albums (not a big fan of their debut, sorry). There's some wonderfully bonkers songs on that one.

So here's a thing I don't think I've mentioned so far in this thread... I can't get on with Genesis and I just don't know why. I've been a dedicated prog fan for nearly two decades at this point but every time I give them another whirl it just doesn't click. After surprising myself by getting into Big Big Train recently (despite them being the epitome of modern boring Dad prog) I figured I must surely be properly attuned to appreciate their most obvious influences. So I sat down, donned my headphones and listened to Selling England beginning to end, giving it my full attention. Just... nothing. I think it might be Gabriel's vocals and lyrics that's proving to be the biggest obstacle. A few instrumental passages showed promise, but they all seemed to get quickly crushed by the weight of his am-dram prattling. I'm sure I'm the dickhead here and they're actually brilliant but I can't for the life of me figure out why I'm supposed to love them.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #153 on: June 10, 2019, 02:09:43 PM »
Nothing odd about appreciating Drama. Machine Messiah and Tempus Fugit are two of my absolute favourite Yes tunes.

I agree with most of this list but Interview definitely deserves to be held in the same esteem as the preceding 6 albums (not a big fan of their debut, sorry). There's some wonderfully bonkers songs on that one.

So here's a thing I don't think I've mentioned so far in this thread... I can't get on with Genesis and I just don't know why. I've been a dedicated prog fan for nearly two decades at this point but every time I give them another whirl it just doesn't click. After surprising myself by getting into Big Big Train recently (despite them being the epitome of modern boring Dad prog) I figured I must surely be properly attuned to appreciate their most obvious influences. So I sat down, donned my headphones and listened to Selling England beginning to end, giving it my full attention. Just... nothing. I think it might be Gabriel's vocals and lyrics that's proving to be the biggest obstacle. A few instrumental passages showed promise, but they all seemed to get quickly crushed by the weight of his am-dram prattling. I'm sure I'm the dickhead here and they're actually brilliant but I can't for the life of me figure out why I'm supposed to love them.

Drama has long been a big favourite of Yes fans, and Trevor Horn rejoining has been higher on most hardcore fans' list than Jon Anderson, Rick Wakeman or Tony Kaye (admittedly mainly cos those three have been in and out of Yes like a cock through a public lav glory hole).

I also agree with you about Interview - it's not my favourite by any stretch, but I think it is a GOOD album.  But after that it really is very diminishing returns.

As for Genesis - there is and always has been a fairly definite divide between Gabriel era and Collins era.  The purists typically like Gabriel (and ONLY Gabriel) Genesis, whilst the Collins die-hards typically like Collins (and ONLY Collins) Genesis.   The next largest group prefer Gabriel era, but appreciate the first three albums after his departure (Trick of the Tail, Wind and Wuthering and the live Seconds Out) and then don't really bother with anything after that.  Then there's quite a big chunk who like the band's entire ouvre - including the very short lived Ray Wilson line-up - and this is the camp I fall into.  Rather uniquely, my absolute favourite era of the band is immediately after Gabriel leaving.  They had to up their game in terms of musical dynamics twice in a very short space of time (firstly to take up the slack left from Gabriel's thick vocals compared to Collins' [then] soft vocal and removal of costumes and stories, and then again on their first tour without Gabriel when Bill Bruford sat in with them, so the rest of the band had to keep up with him) - compare, for example, the original studio version of Cinema Show on Selling England or any live version from the Selling England tour, compared to how they played it with Bruford on the Trick tour.

Long story short - set aside any Phil Collins prejudices (as I think many people need to) and give the post-Gabriel Genesis a go.  And if you don't like any of that...well, then I guess you just don't like Genesis full stop.  You wouldn't be the only one - even prog heads have got bands they don't like.  Fanfare for the Common Man aside, I can't stand ELP, and Zeuhl can fuck right off too...

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #154 on: June 10, 2019, 02:10:35 PM »
Folk prog.
Avant prog.
RPI.
Canterbury.
Symphonic.
RIO.
Space Rock.
Kraut.
Zeuhl.
Progressive pop.

I love some prog I do and that's a fact.... Once you get through the biggie 25 bands, give the following a go...

Birth Control: German hard rock set who went all Gentle Giant in the mid 1970s to great effect.

Moving Gelatine Plates: fun band who can play like fuck - ask Blodders about them.

Cartoon: American intrusmental progress from the 1980s with a RIO bent.

Fantastic. Birth Control are one of my favourites. I saw them play at the Burg-Herzberg festival at the turn of the Millennium and Bernd Noske was phenomenal (even vaulting the kit despite being overweight and old)...mind you Mani Neumeier & Christian Vander also played at the festival, so Bernd wasn't even the best drummer in the line-up.

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #155 on: June 10, 2019, 02:29:51 PM »
Rather uniquely, my absolute favourite era of the band is immediately after Gabriel leaving.  They had to up their game in terms of musical dynamics twice in a very short space of time (firstly to take up the slack left from Gabriel's thick vocals compared to Collins' [then] soft vocal and removal of costumes and stories, and then again on their first tour without Gabriel when Bill Bruford sat in with them, so the rest of the band had to keep up with him) - compare, for example, the original studio version of Cinema Show on Selling England or any live version from the Selling England tour, compared to how they played it with Bruford on the Trick tour.

I'm with you on that.  My absolute favourite albums are Trick of the Tail, and then Wind and Wuthering.  And while I appreciate the Gabriel era for its musicianship and writing, Gabriel's voice grates on me like rusty nails down a blackboard.  I'd take Collins doing Supper's Ready (or whatever) a million times over listening to Gabriel doing it as per the studio recording or (worse) in concert.  I listen to the Gabriel stuff much more than Abacab or Genesis though.  I also think Calling All Stations is underappreciated, even if there's not much Genesis in it by then.  "There Must Some Other Way" and "One Man's Fool" are great tracks.

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #156 on: June 10, 2019, 02:53:12 PM »
Long story short - set aside any Phil Collins prejudices (as I think many people need to) and give the post-Gabriel Genesis a go.  And if you don't like any of that...well, then I guess you just don't like Genesis full stop.  You wouldn't be the only one - even prog heads have got bands they don't like.  Fanfare for the Common Man aside, I can't stand ELP, and Zeuhl can fuck right off too...

This is interesting advice. I was aware that some appreciate the post-Gabriel albums to various degrees, but I had assumed the discerning prog fan's consensus was squarely that the Gabriel era is essential and the rest is down to the individual's discretion. I'll definitely give A Trick of the Tail a go at some point and see how if it fares any better.

You're right though, there are few prog sacred cows that are actually universally loved. I guess with it being such a wide-ranging and at times intentionally "out there" genre, every supposed masterpiece is bound to leave some people cold. For a long time I was quite comfortable in my total disregard for Genesis, but having increasingly enjoyed heavily Genesis-inspired bands like BBT I figured I ought to give them another chance.

ELP's output is 30% glorious and 70% utter cack with very little middle ground, IMO. There are isolated tunes (Tarkus, especially) that I always come back to, but they never put out a single album that is solid from start to finish.

Zeuhl is My Bag, but it is a very strange and alarming bag, and I totally respect why someone would listen to Magma or Eskaton and immediately conclude "nah, don't think so mate".

Best of all, Brazil has Hermeto Pascoal, ostensibly a jazz artist but actually quite hard to categorise (shades of Zappa/Henry Cow on this one):

Festa Dos Deuses

I'm so glad this thread's been bumped. Finally gave this a listen and it is divine. Off I go down another rabbithole...

Endicott

  • I've done no research
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #157 on: June 10, 2019, 03:14:44 PM »
This is interesting advice. I was aware that some appreciate the post-Gabriel albums to various degrees, but I had assumed the discerning prog fan's consensus was squarely that the Gabriel era is essential and the rest is down to the individual's discretion. I'll definitely give A Trick of the Tail a go at some point and see how if it fares any better.

As a confirmed Gabriel era is best person, it is definitely very good advice. Phil's a great drummer, a great singer and did a fantastic job stepping into the front man's spot. Trick, W+W, and Duke are well worth a listen, oh and Seconds Out.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2019, 03:32:26 PM »
This is interesting advice. I was aware that some appreciate the post-Gabriel albums to various degrees, but I had assumed the discerning prog fan's consensus was squarely that the Gabriel era is essential and the rest is down to the individual's discretion. I'll definitely give A Trick of the Tail a go at some point and see how if it fares any better.

As a confirmed Gabriel era is best person, it is definitely very good advice. Phil's a great drummer, a great singer and did a fantastic job stepping into the front man's spot. Trick, W+W, and Duke are well worth a listen, oh and Seconds Out.

Here's a snippet of Cinema Show from the Trick tour to use as comparison (proper live footage kicks in at 1.32, but the whole segment - as presented in the [misguided] film - included for completeness) between the fairly slow plodding nature of the original and the increased BPM of the Collins era version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhvq0XZGOSE

Even though he pretty much hated his time with the band, and Mike Rutherford found him an absolute nightmare to play over (because he never played any of the songs the same way), I think Bruford's contribution has been hugely under rated and was infinitely more than mere temporary live dep drummer.  He really is almost solely responsible for kicking the rest of the band up a few gears and notches both technically and dynamically and, in addition to Hackett's increased confidence following releasing his own solo album, it's a huge shame that this version of the band never went beyond one tour.  Much as I love Chester Thompson (who brought different things to the table), I don't think they ever captured quite the same magic as they had in '76, save perhaps for the 92/93 The Way We Walk tour (for We Can't Dance) where Phil's voice and drumming (particularly given he had the best sounding kit he's ever had - predominantly a custom Noble & Cooley kit rather than his usual Gretsch) were both at their very peak and they produced this moment of majesty which shows just what the three core members were capable of on their own - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao34UhjV5ZM

Endicott

  • I've done no research
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2019, 03:50:40 PM »
Here's a snippet of Cinema Show from the Trick tour to use as comparison (proper live footage kicks in at 1.32, but the whole segment - as presented in the [misguided] film - included for completeness) between the fairly slow plodding nature of the original and the increased BPM of the Collins era version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhvq0XZGOSE

Fuck me SGN, it's not supposed to be a disco number!

Nah only joking. It's just not so much to my taste at that speed. I take your point about Bruford's influence mind, very interesting.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2019, 04:41:29 PM »
Fuck me SGN, it's not supposed to be a disco number!

HUGE hit in Studio 54.

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2019, 06:06:59 PM »
I've always felt the Gabriel/Collins distinction with Genesis was a little flawed. Steve Hackett had a far greater influence musically on the band than Peter Gabriel, and the real break with the past was when he left - which allows the inclusion of TotT and W&W into the early Genesis era.

Just occurred to me that the title of "Seconds Out" probably referred to Hackett's departure.

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2019, 07:15:58 PM »
Lads, take it to the Genesis thread

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2019, 10:12:06 AM »
All right then, something non-Genesis related...

I've been all over this here album by John Elmquist's HardArt Groop for the last few months and I think it counts as prog, though I expect Mr Elmquist would raise an eyebrow at that classification. It's floating somewhere in the netherspace between jazz, rock and modern orchestral music, and is chock full of idiosyncratic lyrics and weird arrangements with too many notes. Very much puts me in mind of stuff like National Health and Kew. Rhone. (and maybe just a splash of Magma?). I gave it its first spin whilst loitering in hospital waiting for my son to be born so it's left an indelible mark on my brain.

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2019, 01:08:30 PM »
Rush
King Crimson
Yes
Dream Theatre.

Done.

BlodwynPig

  • Throwing two dogs at a goblin
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2019, 01:09:57 PM »
Rush
King Crimson
Yes
Dream Theatre.

Done.

The auditorium at Disneyland Skegness?

the science eel

  • dynamite sack artist
    • PRELUDIN - where goons don't go
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2019, 01:56:58 PM »

Plenty of angry stuff especially in their earlier work. The end of Musical Box (particularly (again) the version on Live)


and 'YOU'RE NO SON OF MINE'

the science eel

  • dynamite sack artist
    • PRELUDIN - where goons don't go
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #167 on: June 11, 2019, 01:57:46 PM »
they're not as good as Erasure tho' are they fellas?

the science eel

  • dynamite sack artist
    • PRELUDIN - where goons don't go
Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #168 on: June 11, 2019, 01:59:19 PM »
my wife's just bought a CD by one of the 80s biggest pop bands

Erasure?

well it was last time I looked

Re: prog bands ranking
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2019, 02:00:00 PM »
The auditorium at Disneyland Skegness?

Like I'm going to stoop to their level and spell theatre like a yank.