CORBYN TWELVE (you know where to put your mark)

[Dr Rock]

I should note that I have zero intention of setting myself up to be relentlessly abused and harassed

Give it a rest mate.


Anyway, new thread time.

http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,55650.msg2938198.html#msg2938198

[TrenterPercenter]

Don't pretend you're not fascinated as to what he'd think. Someone who claimed to be a hardcore left socialist, but actually displayed the beliefs of a far-right nationalist, finally getting what he said he wanted would be very interesting.

UKIP is currently a right-wing party standing with SOME faux-socialist friendly policies.

Why?  let's go back to the factory floor.  sorry i've capped some words purely for emphasis 

A manager and his assistant-manager are both capitalist MANAGERS of a factory (the factory is OWNED by someone else), the assistant who is closer to the shop floor believes whipping some workers keeps the rest of the workers in line, however the manager believes that the RELATIONSHIP between workers and managers should be controlled by starving workers that are less productive and feeding more productive workers just enough to sustain themselves but not enough the have a SURPLUS.  The manager argues that the violence of whipping potentially creates anger and resentment towards the ORGANISATION and after all there is only two of them against many.  It is better that workers continue their fate benignly and injuring their capacity to be productive is not in the interests of the factory anyway.

The conditions of the factories results in workers invariably dying and becoming sick, so new workers have to be brought in from other factories.  Traumatised from over-working and watching their fellow workers starve, and  never actually obtaining a surplus, the workers become unhappy with the how the factory is being run and they begin to question the managers MANAGEMENT of the workforce.  The assistant manager see's an opportunity to suggest to the workers that they should all have  have a subsistence level of food, apart from some workers that are not worthy and have actually been the reason that no worker has ever received a surplus.  A surplus cannot be given now but it will be in the future when the dead weights have been removed. These dead weights will be punished as evidence that this new relationship with the workers will come about.  The workers agree to over throw the old manager.  As the manager is sacked by the owner, the newly promoted assistant-manager gets out the whip.

This is UKIP and Puffy - whether he was a worker believing the assistant-manager or whether he is the assistant manager - he isn't a socialist and doesn't believe in socialism.

Socialism for the upteeth time is about the organisation of labour, it is about the relationship of the workers with the thing they are working on that means the workers get to decide their wages and not shareholders and owners - that is why ownership doesn't actually matter as much as the organisation of labour, Rupert Murdoch can own as many companies as he likes it doesn't matter if he doesn't get organise what happens in them[nb]But, wait how can someone OWN something and not be able to do as they please with it?  Because there are different types of PROPERTY owning a home is different from owning a factory and deciding the fates of the people that work in it, likewise owning a baby is different from owning car.[/nb].

The point is that a capitalist system, set-up to extract profits destroys itself, which is what Marx predicted and has been proven time and time again.  It's not revolution that destroys capitalism it is capitalism itself.

The Tories pre-Blair did this, and New "Manager" Labour came in to say we need to get these workers back focused so let's cut a deal with the owners, we will not change the fundamental relationship but we will pour some more food into the system, the problem was some workers got surpluses so attempts were made to claw this back and get workers investing in the factory as an insurance policy, any attempts to change the organisation of labour could then be countered by removing the workers surpluses from them.  The other bigger problem was that whilst this was going on essentially capitalism had massively expanded and therefore the extraction of profits from the system increased to such a point that it crashed.

Now what is debatable is whether New Labour were simply another manager with a method of sustaining the extraction of profits from labour OR they believed that pouring money into the system would equalise workers and managers to such a degree that a new relationship would be created.

The problem with the second theory is that they are a) seemingly oblivious to how close this is to the trickle-down economics of thatcherism and how utterly mistaken it is as a method of organising labour and b) they seem to have done they level best to be elitist fucks neither promoting working classes into positions of power or recognising the increasing inequality they presided over.

[Buelligan]

I'm willing to step back from my soapbox if others are.

I haven't even got on mine and if it's all the same to you, I think it would be better if everyone moved their non-Corbyn soapboxes somewhere where it doesn't clutter up the Corbyn Space.  Thanks in advance.

[TrenterPercenter]

I should note that I have zero intention of setting myself up to be relentlessly abused and harassed across the board for holding the opinion that basic humanist premises like the universal value of human life shouldn't be a political football kicked around by affluent middle class people.

Errrr.....I liked the cartoon.

Is there another thread perhaps we can discuss this further this one is about Corbyn. 

[NoSleep]

UKIP is currently right-wing party standing with SOME faux-socialist friendly policies.

I think you'll find that, even moreso than his relentless repetitions of his mantras against the "Great Satan, Jeremy Corbyn", GOBII's most cherished mantra of all time is "Vote UKIP".

[TrenterPercenter]

I think you'll find that, even moreso than his relentless repetitions of his mantras against the "Great Satan, Jeremy Corbyn", GOBII's most cherished mantra of all time is "Vote UKIP".

He supports UKIP?

[Still Not George]

I will reiterate that I will take no part in a further thread on the subject. So feel free to have your thirteenth or fourteenth "argue with Milverton and slap yourselves on the back for being such Good People" thread.

I'd also suggest the newly posted Corbyn XIII for discussion on the leadership election. The opening post has a particularly fruity and spicy Owen Smith quote.

[NoSleep]

He supports UKIP?

That isn't what I said.

[TrenterPercenter]

I will reiterate that I will take no part in a further thread on the subject. So feel free to have your thirteenth or fourteenth "argue with Milverton and slap yourselves on the back for being such Good People" thread.

Oh come on comrade let's all have a cuddle.

[TrenterPercenter]

That isn't what I said.

Ah, you mean he says Corbynites should vote UKIP (ala well they want to leave the EU blerdy blerdy bler)

[NoSleep]

It used to be his mantra in all the interminable threads he maintained versus TPPHM and Pedro Bear. He also believed that UKIP was the "end of the Left".

[Johnny Yesno]

Don't pretend you're not fascinated as to what he'd think. Someone who claimed to be a hardcore left socialist, but actually displayed the beliefs of a far-right nationalist, finally getting what he said he wanted would be very interesting.

Mate, that's just you. I don't give a flying fuck what the tedious arse thinks.

[Dr Rock]

So GOB, answer honestly - do you want Monday's Dispatches to

a. Find out there is loads of antisemitism within Momentum

b. to not be able to find much or any evidence of antisemitism within Momentum

?

[Johnny Yesno]

Yet, Labour are going to have to find a way to approach the subject of race if they are going to be able to make a coherent socialist case on a whole range of associated subjects like immigration and so on. This is now a political necessity in the wake of Brexit and the increasing obviousness of the degree to which Labour's traditional working class vote have been suborned by the likes of UKIP (and before them, the BNP).

This is not going to be possible as long as a large proportion of the party's faithful hold the apparent opinion that even something as minor as saying that all human life matters - which I will repeat, is a fundamental socialist premise - is indicative of irredeemable racism.

It's already been said, but Black Lives Matter was to do with police shooting black people, and the subsequent All Lives Matter was an attempt to ridicule it. BLM wasn't meant as a wider political slogan. That's why people are getting irked with you when you accuse them of being simplistic.

We get it, and that's why we support Corbyn when he says he's against all forms of racism. And I think it's to his credit that he doesn't get bogged down in arguments about race. He talks about families and children and poverty in a way that suggests that those are the salient features he wants to focus on, and he says it ways that sound more meaningful than the usual political platitudes.

[Johnny Yesno]

So GOB, answer honestly - do you want Monday's Dispatches to

a. Find out there is loads of antisemitism within Momentum

b. to not be able to find much or any evidence of antisemitism within Momentum

?

I think his answer would be 'Don't pretend you're not fascinated by antisemitism. Option a would be very interesting'.

[Buelligan]

Sorry, wrong Corbyn thread.

[HappyTree]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOZzFXolGJc