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Let's talk about Shoot 'em ups...what's the best Shmup ever?

Started by captaincockring, August 23, 2016, 01:11:02 AM

Previous topic - Next topic
This is a thread in which I'm hoping people will want to talk about Shoot 'em ups...and by that I mean games like this.



Or this.



Not this.



It would be good if I could have some indepth discussion about my favourite type of game.

Just to kick us off, what is going to become of Cave? it's been a long time since they made anything, if they disappear who is going to be making good new shmups? 'Taito' did a Darius a while back but it wasn't any good...does anyone know of any new ones I don't know about?

There's got to be someone here who likes the genre, I know madhair does.

My vote for best ever would be either Battle Garegga or Espgaluda.

HappyTree


Quote from: HappyTree on August 23, 2016, 02:01:41 AM
Is Defender too tame to be a shmup? That.

Nah it's one of the greats that one...an example of a stunning western shmup too, quite a rarity.

I always thought it was a game I didn't mind dying on cause it's so damn pretty...and that's a good job cause it's rock hard.

The sound effects are pretty damn iconic too.

Dex Sawash

Robotron 2084 and Vanguard (the side/vertical scroller) were both a bit unusual in concept. Would bang again 8/10

Quote from: Dex Sawash on August 23, 2016, 03:21:48 AM
Robotron 2084 and Vanguard (the side/vertical scroller) were both a bit unusual in concept. Would bang again 8/10

Another Williams classic...I'm spotting a trend.

Never played Vanguard you know?...I'll rectify that right now.

Do you like Smash TV? Or Total Carnage..both pseudo sequels to Robotron.

It looks a bit like Scramble this...going for a play.

hewantstolurkatad

Whats the deal with Radiant Silvergun, I'm not a shmup player at all but as a kid I remember magazines going on about it as if it were the definitive absolute best of the lot ever by an absolute mile.

Only time I ever hear about it now is when my brain goes "so was Radiant Silvergun all that then?"

Did Ikaruga just piss all over it or does it occupy some awkward middle ground between tech and seem horribly dated? I hear about that Astro Boy game more these days.

Quote from: hewantstolurkatad on August 23, 2016, 03:35:22 AM
Whats the deal with Radiant Silvergun, I'm not a shmup player at all but as a kid I remember magazines going on about it as if it were the definitive absolute best of the lot ever by an absolute mile.

Only time I ever hear about it now is when my brain goes "so was Radiant Silvergun all that then?"

Did Ikaruga just piss all over it or does it occupy some awkward middle ground between tech and seem horribly dated? I hear about that Astro Boy game more these days.

Radiant Silvergun is a very very very good game, and no I don't think Ikaruga is better, it's good but it's more of a weird puzzle game than a shmup...well you can play it both ways really.

RS however is a shmup through and through...one of the Saturn's best games, the arcade version is just a Saturn in a cab.

I assume you mean the GBA treasure Astroboy?...that's a brilliant game.

HappyTree

I played the arcade Defender in a pub when I was a nipper but it wasn't until the PC version 'Last of the Free' that I got right into it.

Just been looking at current efforts to see if I'd like them. Geometry Wars 2 and 3 were advised. Tried the demos. 3 is way too confusing, I don't like its main idea of being confined to the shape. 2 was much better but I'll stay with the demo for now to see if I can get used to the two-stick control.

I might just end up finding LOTF again, it's bound to be abandonware by now.

Quote from: HappyTree on August 23, 2016, 03:41:28 AM
I played the arcade Defender in a pub when I was a nipper but it wasn't until the PC version 'Last of the Free' that I got right into it.

Just been looking at current efforts to see if I'd like them. Geometry Wars 2 and 3 were advised. Tried the demos. 3 is way too confusing, I don't like its main idea of being confined to the shape. 2 was much better but I'll stay with the demo for now to see if I can get used to the two-stick control.

I might just end up finding LOTF again, it's bound to be abandonware by now.

Yes I thought GW3 was needlessly messy too.

It's not a bad game though.

hewantstolurkatad

Quote from: captaincockring on August 23, 2016, 03:40:51 AM
Radiant Silvergun is a very very very good game, and no I don't think Ikaruga is better, it's good but it's more of a weird puzzle game than a shmup...well you can play it both ways really.

RS however is a shmup through and through...one of the Saturn's best games, the arcade version is just a Saturn in a cab.

I assume you mean the GBA treasure Astroboy?...that's a brilliant game.
Yep, the Treasure Astro Boy iirc?


So able to give me any elaboration on my radiant silvergun experience? Did shmups just become extremely niche after that generation?

#10
Quote from: hewantstolurkatad on August 23, 2016, 03:47:24 AM
Yep, the Treasure Astro Boy iirc?


So able to give me any elaboration on my radiant silvergun experience? Did shmups just become extremely niche after that generation?

They were headed that way even then...but essentially yes.

Casual gaming, that didn't intimidate players so much took hold and here we are...basically a dead genre again, things looked a lot brighter a few years ago.

The only company that's been keeping the fire burning really is Cave...ex members of Toaplan, who made some AWESOME shmups...seriously if you want a masterclass in the vertical shooter, play their games.

But Cave look to be done, they said that the last Dodonpachi would be their last game and that was about two years ago, Mame killed them I'm afraid, they tried to make ports for the mobile devices and although the controls are cheaty (are they? opinions please)they were good ports but it wasn't enough...and that saddens me no end...that's the end of line that began with Toaplan.

The problem with shmups is unlike most genres it was born perfect...there was hardly anywhere to go...most of them are still every bit as playable as the day they were coded and unlike every other genre the games are more or less timeless.

Take Seibu Kaihatsu's Raiden...they've been basically just been remaking the same game for years...same music, same bosses...just a different engine...no-one cares...but the first one is every bit as good as the last...well Raiden DX is probably the best.

This post has rambled on cos CaB is being flaky tonight, I daren't post it in case I lose it.

Quote from: Dex Sawash on August 23, 2016, 03:21:48 AM
Robotron 2084 and Vanguard (the side/vertical scroller) were both a bit unusual in concept. Would bang again 8/10

Oh thanks...good little game and it has synthesized speech...love that.

Had anyone here 1cc'd a shmup?

I've come close...well I've finished the first loop of Dodonpachi which is no mean feat...but I died on the first level of the second.

But I came close to nearly doing what I assume is the only loop of Guwange once.

I've got to the third loop of scramble.

Oh R-type...although sometimes I don't do level 5.

I think that's it.

madhair60

I can get to level 4 of R-Type if I'm lucky. Then I definitely die.

My favourite shmup series is Gradius, and by extension I'd say Gradius 2, Gaiden or V are my favourite shmups. If I had to pick one now I'd probably go for Gaiden, but it changes with the weather.

Another example of a top-tier Western shmup is Jamestown - thought that was absolutely brilliant.

Bazooka

Lifeforce on NES and Summer Carnival '92: Recca are some of the best retro s,mups.



Are we counting Metal Slug and Contra here?

biggytitbo

If we're talking strictly traditional shmups then I'm really a fan of the genre but I remember liking Project X on the Amiga quite a bit.

Quote from: Bazooka on August 23, 2016, 11:23:13 AM
Lifeforce on NES and Summer Carnival '92: Recca are some of the best retro s,mups.

Are we counting Metal Slug and Contra here?

Recca is very technically impressive...you can't believe a NES could do such things...I like Lifeforce...well I like Salamander but I'd play the arcade version over the NES.

And Metal Slug and Contra are run and gun games not true shmups...but they are brilliant yes.

Quote

Guwange is good. Kind of plays like Mercs, but with an ancient Japanese lore theme.



Cave again, I think. Got loads of these games on MAME a while back and ending up putting in plenty of time to them (infinite continues helps). You do end getting sucked into them, mainly because they're so intense and there's so many projectiles coming at you that you can't afford to drop your concentration level.

I'm no expert at these games, I only really got into them after Cave brought out iOS versions of things like Espgulada and Bug Princess.

Games like Super Aleste, Axelay and Super Probotector kept me busy as a child, but I was always pretty crap at them. Super Probotector/Contra III is one of the greats though.


I don't ever continue...In fact I usually go into the dipswitches and turn it off entirely...it's the only way to progress.

Plus it gets rid of the countdown when you just want to put your initials in...not that you can on Guwange,I can find some Hiragana that looks like SVP but I bet most people cannot.

What do you think of the Ios controls? do you find you're better than with physical controls? I asked up there in the tl;dr.

Quote from: madhair60 on August 23, 2016, 09:05:47 AM
I can get to level 4 of R-Type if I'm lucky. Then I definitely die.

My favourite shmup series is Gradius, and by extension I'd say Gradius 2, Gaiden or V are my favourite shmups. If I had to pick one now I'd probably go for Gaiden, but it changes with the weather.

Another example of a top-tier Western shmup is Jamestown - thought that was absolutely brilliant.

The Gradius series is a hardcore staple...although I must admit to sometimes preferring Parodius over it...it's the music I think.

My fav is Vulcan Venture, Gradius II, but I see your point about V, Treasure going back to their roots.

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 23, 2016, 12:13:24 PM
If we're talking strictly traditional shmups then I'm really a fan of the genre but I remember liking Project X on the Amiga quite a bit.

Hard as nails...I don't like western shmups much, they are a different beast entirely...SWIV is my fav Amiga shooter.

Quote

Quote from: captaincockring on August 23, 2016, 01:06:06 PM
I don't ever continue...In fact I usually go into the dipswitches and turn it off entirely...it's the only way to progress.

Plus it gets rid of the countdown when you just want to put your initials in...not that you can on Guwange,I can find some Hiragana that looks like SVP but I bet most people cannot.

What do you think of the Ios controls? do you find you're better than with physical controls? I asked up there in the tl;dr.

Touch screen is more forgiving, and better for people like me who don't have the necessary reactions or skills but like playing these games and want to see further than the first couple of levels. Sometimes it does feel like you can 'ghost' through bullets by just moving your finger quickly around the screen though. There's probably less skill involved, I gave Bug Princess and the iPad to a friends son to have a bash on and he got quite far by just randomly waggling his finger whilst making excitable shooting noises.

If it makes the games more approachable for casual players I don't see the problem. But I'm not aiming to set world records or test myself to the limit like some people who are madly into these games would be.

I just want to have some fun.

#22
Quote from: Quote on August 23, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Touch screen is more forgiving, and better for people like me who don't have the necessary reactions or skills but like playing these games and want to see further than the first couple of levels. Sometimes it does feel like you can 'ghost' through bullets by just moving your finger quickly around the screen though. There's probably less skill involved, I gave Bug Princess and the iPad to a friends son to have a bash on and he got quite far by just randomly waggling his finger whilst making excitable shooting noises.

If it makes the games more approachable for casual players I don't see the problem. But I'm not aiming to set world records or test myself to the limit like some people who are madly into these games would be.

I just want to have some fun.

Fair enough, you play your way, I wasn't having a go.

Yes that's the major problem with it, well identified...you can pull of feats of speed that simply shouldn't be possible...a bit cheaty imo.

I could quite easily finish all the Ios ports and that's just not right...I fear the seduction of my ego that it's trying to cause, I sold my Ipad anyway so I cant play them now.

Quote

Quote from: captaincockring on August 23, 2016, 01:17:24 PM
Fair enough, you play your way, I wasn't having a go.

Yes that's the major problem with it, well identified...you can pull of feats of speed that simply shouldn't be possible...a bit cheaty imo.

Yeah, I know. But for someone like me who's only moderately skilful at games it's a handy tool to help me see the later levels and feel like I'm getting somewhere in games that can be pretty punishing.

It's probably more satisfying to get to the third level playing the games properly though, but whatever .. sometimes you just don't have the time or inclination.

I did quickly recognise that it wasn't my own awesome gaming skills getting me so far into the games. I can still turn on MAME and have a blast at something like Battle Garegga if I want to be thoroughly humbled by my lack of reactions and ability.

Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on August 23, 2016, 09:05:47 AMAnother example of a top-tier Western shmup is Jamestown - thought that was absolutely brilliant.
I thought this was dark humour at first.

Quote from: Quote on August 23, 2016, 01:23:51 PM
Yeah, I know. But for someone like me who's only moderately skilful at games it's a handy tool to help me see the later levels and feel like I'm getting somewhere in games that can be pretty punishing.

It's probably more satisfying to get to the third level playing the games properly though, but whatever .. sometimes you just don't have the time or inclination.

I did quickly recognise that it wasn't my own awesome gaming skills getting me so far into the games. I can still turn on MAME and have a blast at something like Battle Garegga if I want to be thoroughly humbled by my lack of reactions and ability.

There are easier arcade versions of Garegga though...the last two revisions made 50% of the bullets nice and orange...rather than the slithers of black they are in the first one.

Bit of interesting trivia you might not know...Recca which someone mentioned up there is an early Shinobu Yagawa game who made probably the best shmup ever Battle Garegga and it's sequel Battle Bakraid and went on the join Cave to make the very visually busy Ibara and it's sequels.

madhair60

I enjoy vertical shmups like Dangun Feveron, but I tend to favour Gradius simply because I enjoy dodging terrain as well as bullet patterns.

Quote from: madhair60 on August 23, 2016, 03:58:45 PM
I enjoy vertical shmups like Dangun Feveron, but I tend to favour Gradius simply because I enjoy dodging terrain as well as bullet patterns.

Ah Dangun Feveron...one of the very hardest of all shmups, in my early thirties I was trying to push my limits and I got into a regime of playing that game at top speed, I was determined to get onto the high score table, one of the hardest to get onto.

Anyway it broke me and I never got past level 3, the level of sheer excursion needed to play it properly is truly intense, it takes it out of you.

Did you know there is a score attack mode? accessed by holding down shot+bomb as you press start.

Quote from: Twed on August 23, 2016, 01:28:19 PM
I thought this was dark humour at first.

It's not that bad...I played it for a while, but tellingly I've not gone back to it since.