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Let's talk about Shoot 'em ups...what's the best Shmup ever?

Started by captaincockring, August 23, 2016, 01:11:02 AM

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Ambient Sheep

Quote from: captaincockring on August 24, 2016, 04:53:56 PM
The arcade original had a spinner joystick...not easy to emulate at all.

It was the arcade original I was talking about... :-)

Although maybe I didn't get enough practice with it, because at the time it was quite expensive (20p I think, when most others were 10p), and you died far too quickly (as per most Williams games, but without the addictive charm of Defender & Robotron that kept you trying again).

I agree that on home emulators it's even worse, so having the extra free practice time doesn't really help...

Quote from: Ambient Sheep on August 24, 2016, 05:17:59 PM
It was the arcade original I was talking about... :-)

Something like 49 positions, I could never get off the second level.

Love the speech...'I hunger'...'Run, run, run.'

Shay Chaise

I played Apidya on the Amiga a lot. Satisfying and achievable upgrade system. Probably shit in the eyes of shmup fans, I dunno it's not my thing really. I once played Bangai-O Spirits on the DS and one of my eyes caved in.

lazarou

Quote from: captaincockring on August 24, 2016, 04:43:43 PM
Love that game...love it...I'm shit at it too, I think it's just really hard.

Do you like Time Pilot?

Ah yeah, great stuff. Doesn't quite have the sheer wow factor of Sinistar, but on the plus side it's a lot more manageable.

samadriel

https://youtu.be/R3pdw5sgRCY
Not a huge shmup fan, but I did think highly of Biohazard Battle/Crying for the Megadrive. Great weapons.

Dex Sawash

I forgot about GORF and probably should have mentioned BattleZone



The arcade cabinet is so immersive, great sound.

#66
I must say I'm surprised by how many votes the more venerable games are getting...not in a bad way, kinda cool.

Jakey Chesterton


Quote from: Jakey Chesterton on August 27, 2016, 12:23:40 AM
Super Aleste was a good one.

Still is...I don't like all this 'was' talk.

My favourite 16-bit console shmup is either Axelay or Gleylancer...console wars!

Having said that, the SNES is pissed on by the Megadrive when it comes to shmups...it's not even a contest really.

Kelvin

Has anyone mentioned Sin and Punishment 1 and 2 yet? I replayed the second recently and still really enjoyed it. Obviously as a wii game, it uses the wiimote to aim, which makes for quicker, lightgun style aiming suited to this type of game.

Graphically it's pretty ugly, but on an artistic design level it's strong, and the whole thing plays like a mix between Starfox 64 and the more traditional bullet hell shooters posted above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl_Y7dPrV50
edit: this clip ^ is in Japanese, but the version on Wii U download is the English version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF6S5Tknnq8



Both it and the N64 original are available on the Wii U shop channel, if you're interested. And as the closest thing to a great modern Starfox game, you should be. 

#70
Agreed....not really a pure shmup, but it's Treasure and it's genius so it will be allowed.

The first one is better in my opinion...the second is a bit too big for it's own good...apart from that it's one of the Wii's hidden gems.

The first is another one of those games the PS1 wishes it could match.

Kolba

Mentioned earlier in the thread but Radiant Silvergun is my favourite shmup by some distance.

More bosses in one stage than other shmups have in their entirety, each full of new ideas, and they're all polygon behemoths made of various interconnecting segments, rotating and morphing before your eyes in beautiful fluid 60 frames animation. 3d graphics from this era often date horrendously, but not animation and imagination like this.

The 2d backgrounds also spin and shift perspective, at times making it seem like you're zooming into the screen, or tumbling through the air.

There's a bombastic space opera of an orchestral score.

There's even an anime intro and outro for gods sake. And fully fleshed out time travel plot. The game starts on Stage 3, you know.

It's all frankly more than we expected - still expect - from a shmup, and it still impresses me today.

I could have bored you with mechanics, like when we talk about other shmups, like how there are 7 weapons in your arsenal right from the beginning, no pickups. The game trusts you with this power, you just have to learn the correct way to wield it: for every weapon a situation and purpose. And the chaining system, to make things more or less difficult for yourself depending on your ability and confidence. This latter mechanic is what Ikaruga later took, honed and perfected, but Radiant Silvergun has a lot more good ideas, and presented in a way that's spellbinding.

brat-sampson

Steam Weekend Shmup Sale for all you Shmuppin' Shmuppers. I don't know which are good, but there's lots, so probably a few at least..

Another vote for Hellfire on the MD. And Gynoug was great too. Your bullets made a sort of fluttery noise on impact like you were swatting moths.

Van Dammage

Crimson Clover World Ignition was on sale recently on steam and I think it was in one of the humble bundles. Relatively easy compared to the old school shmups but if you can find it for about 2 euro like I did then it's definitely worth a try.





Looks lovely, as you can see.

There's 3 types of ship, the third being a secret unlock and being wildly OP compared to the others.

The Masked Unit

Dodonpachi was my main go-to when I used to have MAME, then ESP Ra.De. and Guwange.

On the horizontal tip, Parodius.

greenman

Quote from: captaincockring on August 23, 2016, 04:00:39 AM
They were headed that way even then...but essentially yes.

Casual gaming, that didn't intimidate players so much took hold and here we are...basically a dead genre again, things looked a lot brighter a few years ago.

The only company that's been keeping the fire burning really is Cave...ex members of Toaplan, who made some AWESOME shmups...seriously if you want a masterclass in the vertical shooter, play their games.

But Cave look to be done, they said that the last Dodonpachi would be their last game and that was about two years ago, Mame killed them I'm afraid, they tried to make ports for the mobile devices and although the controls are cheaty (are they? opinions please)they were good ports but it wasn't enough...and that saddens me no end...that's the end of line that began with Toaplan.

The problem with shmups is unlike most genres it was born perfect...there was hardly anywhere to go...most of them are still every bit as playable as the day they were coded and unlike every other genre the games are more or less timeless.

Take Seibu Kaihatsu's Raiden...they've been basically just been remaking the same game for years...same music, same bosses...just a different engine...no-one cares...but the first one is every bit as good as the last...well Raiden DX is probably the best.

This post has rambled on cos CaB is being flaky tonight, I daren't post it in case I lose it.

For me though the original move to bullet hell with the rise of Cave marked the point where shoot em ups became a niche genre, originality diminished(bar releases like Ikargua) in favour of testing very similar ever greater bullet dodging skill levels across multiple games.

Personally I preffered the earlier era were tactics to avoid bad situations and where to put your firepower to use were featured more than pure bullet dodging ability, maybe that differs if you play at a higher level for scores?

For 80's top down plane/heli shooters my favourite was always Twin Cobra...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex2CeFzVpA


Van Dammage

http://store.steampowered.com/sale/shmup/

Shmup sale currently on steam. A few cave titles there.


EDIT : Any recommendations from the sale list? I'm gonna get a few but it's been ages since I've thought about shmups so I have no idea about half of these games.

Johnny Textface


Quote from: greenman on September 04, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
For me though the original move to bullet hell with the rise of Cave marked the point where shoot em ups became a niche genre, originality diminished(bar releases like Ikargua) in favour of testing very similar ever greater bullet dodging skill levels across multiple games.

Personally I preffered the earlier era were tactics to avoid bad situations and where to put your firepower to use were featured more than pure bullet dodging ability, maybe that differs if you play at a higher level for scores?

For 80's top down plane/heli shooters my favourite was always Twin Cobra...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex2CeFzVpA

I think the bullet dodging element in danmaku shmups is overstated, most of the strategy comes from knowing how to stem the bullet flow enough to be able to survive...I don't really think 'bullet hell' changed shmups as much as many old school purists think...many people are just plain intimidated and dress it up as dislike, not saying you or anything.

Yes Twin Cobra was highly influential to a lot of games...things would look different without it.

Quote from: Johnny Textface on September 04, 2016, 06:51:38 PM
Einhander, PS1. Close thread.

It is very good, Square just did a shmup, it was brilliant and then no more.

Quote from: The Masked Unit on September 04, 2016, 11:22:36 AM
Dodonpachi was my main go-to when I used to have MAME, then ESP Ra.De. and Guwange.

On the horizontal tip, Parodius.

Taste from that man.


Quote from: Kolba on September 01, 2016, 08:47:34 PM
Mentioned earlier in the thread but Radiant Silvergun is my favourite shmup by some distance.

More bosses in one stage than other shmups have in their entirety, each full of new ideas, and they're all polygon behemoths made of various interconnecting segments, rotating and morphing before your eyes in beautiful fluid 60 frames animation. 3d graphics from this era often date horrendously, but not animation and imagination like this.

The 2d backgrounds also spin and shift perspective, at times making it seem like you're zooming into the screen, or tumbling through the air.

There's a bombastic space opera of an orchestral score.

There's even an anime intro and outro for gods sake. And fully fleshed out time travel plot. The game starts on Stage 3, you know.

It's all frankly more than we expected - still expect - from a shmup, and it still impresses me today.

I could have bored you with mechanics, like when we talk about other shmups, like how there are 7 weapons in your arsenal right from the beginning, no pickups. The game trusts you with this power, you just have to learn the correct way to wield it: for every weapon a situation and purpose. And the chaining system, to make things more or less difficult for yourself depending on your ability and confidence. This latter mechanic is what Ikaruga later took, honed and perfected, but Radiant Silvergun has a lot more good ideas, and presented in a way that's spellbinding.

I like the ultra designed weapons system...not only do you have seven weapons, with individual buttons, but different combos of buttons when pressed down will change the weapons too...this has been designed to hell to make the later levels an exercise in experimentation.

greenman

Quote from: captaincockring on September 05, 2016, 04:47:34 AM
I think the bullet dodging element in danmaku shmups is overstated, most of the strategy comes from knowing how to stem the bullet flow enough to be able to survive...I don't really think 'bullet hell' changed shmups as much as many old school purists think...many people are just plain intimidated and dress it up as dislike, not saying you or anything.

Yes Twin Cobra was highly influential to a lot of games...things would look different without it.

Whether it was chicken or egg I do think that marked a point where shoot em ups shifted from a mainstream genre to a niche one and with that came a diminished degree of originality.

Just in terms of dodging I think you often have a shift away from move active movement quickly around the screen to avoid bad situations or bullets/enemies coming at certain harder to dodgy patterns and towards very minor adjustments in movement to doge clouds of bullets with a much smaller hitbox.

Personally the R-type and Gradius style games always tended to be my favourites and bar the old revival pretty much died out in the bullet hell era. I didn't play it at the time but in retrospect I think Pulstar on the Neo Geo(supposedly made by several ex Irem employees) stands out as maybe the best of them..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58uNBJ1Wrs0




Quote from: captaincockring on September 05, 2016, 08:27:01 PM
'BONUS!'

I've just realised it's 'get bonus' just 'bonus' wouldn't be anywhere near annoying enough.

It's a great game though yes, I agree.

remedial_gash

*Pachi games are fun, shmupmame says I've spent a month* on dai-ou-jou, and not really getting that much better unless playing it for hours at an end (stage 5) - and to no real end. I appreciate the love for garegga but if I can get to stage 3 it's a fucking miracle... I've seen the super plays.

For me it's between the aforementioned D-O-J, espagaluda and 'Battle Bakraid' - it's YGW without being so hardcore and I can sometimes get near the end of the course, plus it's fucking good fun. Sometimes I can chain the desert stage - mostly I cannot, don't know what I'm doing differently, but at least it's still kind of fun. I've read in depth guides to garrega but I don't think I could make it past mid-stage 3.

Shmups are accessible sink-holes much like 'x' drug, cheap to get into, horrible to try and leave.

EDIT * 28 hours is not 28 days - so just over a day - still sad.

It's okay...if you listened to my MAME and it's lies you'd think I'd spend three whole days of my life on ESP Ra. De.

Garegga is so tough I know...it's scary tough, sometimes I lie to myself and say Batrider is better just cause I'm better at it.

greenman

Quote from: Quote on September 05, 2016, 05:57:11 PM
The sequel, Blazing Star is equally great.

As good as it is I wouldn't really say it a direct sequal though even if it includes the same ship, its more a halfway point between an R-type style game and a more fast action one with some nods towards bullet hell.

Don't get me wrong there are many bullet hell games I'v enjoyed(alth but equally I do think it represented a narrowing of horizons for the genre. I must confess as well that the kawaii and pervy anime girls aspects generally turn me off outside of something like parodies that justified it with the humour.