Author Topic: Rocky IV  (Read 3868 times)

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2020, 11:20:57 AM »
The Hulk Hogan stuff is pointless and drags the pacing down

I can't remember which boxer and wrestler it was, but that actually happened.  It's important to the story and the character - at least within 3 - as it shows Rocky getting fucked off with his popularity being used as a marketing ploy.  He even comments on how stupid the whole thing is.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2020, 11:25:38 AM »
Thought it was this thread that led me to a great humorous take on Rocky IV. But alas can't see it above. So here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyWx1CkMTtI

ESPN short documentary on the fight in Rocky IV

dr beat

  • #TeamColourfield
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2020, 11:36:46 AM »
I can't remember which boxer and wrestler it was, but that actually happened.  It's important to the story and the character - at least within 3 - as it shows Rocky getting fucked off with his popularity being used as a marketing ploy.  He even comments on how stupid the whole thing is.

Muhammad Ali fought Japanese wrestler Antonio Inoki in 1976 which was regarded as something of a farce:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Antonio_Inoki

kalowski

  • the Zone of Zero Funkativity
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2020, 11:45:01 AM »
Thought it was this thread that led me to a great humorous take on Rocky IV. But alas can't see it above. So here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyWx1CkMTtI

ESPN short documentary on the fight in Rocky IV
"Creed is clearly exhausted by the dance number he did with James Brown five minutes earlier"
Delightful.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2020, 12:03:21 PM »
I can't remember which boxer and wrestler it was, but that actually happened.  It's important to the story and the character - at least within 3 - as it shows Rocky getting fucked off with his popularity being used as a marketing ploy.  He even comments on how stupid the whole thing is.

I get that but it goes on forever and still didn't need to be in there - it could have been the gang watching a clip of it on the tv afterwards and saying it was a farce. The real reason it's there is as a big comic relief set piece, which it fails at being.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2020, 02:48:39 PM »
I get that but it goes on forever and still didn't need to be in there -

Doesn't it set up the idea that Rocky's career has become a bit of a joke?

Rocky III is ace in my opinion. Not as good as IV but still great.

Rocky IV's soundtrack is the perfect soundtrack for working out as well. Proper pumps testosterone through your veins.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2020, 02:53:22 PM »
I wonder if Stallone will get rid of the 80s tunes in this less fun director's cut? Maybe bring in some of that there hippity-hop that was in them Creeds?

TheMonk

  • Hello folks
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2020, 03:05:12 PM »
I think it's the worst in the series. As bad as five is, I find something to like about how extensively Stallone tried to correct the course by pulling Rocky down spectacularly from the levels of wealth and success in the fourth film.
The 2001 Only Fools Christmas Special of the Rocky series then.
Also, no one’s mentioned the rumoured penchant Stallone has for shitting in hotel showers?

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2020, 03:47:47 PM »
Also, no one’s mentioned the rumoured penchant Stallone has for shitting in hotel showers?

IIRC that originated on Popbitch.  Given that the rumour about Wogan being into coprophagia also started there, I would take it with several skip fulls of salt.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2020, 05:52:36 PM »
It was better than Die Hard 4.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2020, 06:50:40 PM »
I can't remember which boxer and wrestler it was, but that actually happened.  It's important to the story and the character - at least within 3 - as it shows Rocky getting fucked off with his popularity being used as a marketing ploy.  He even comments on how stupid the whole thing is.
Isn't Rocky quite up for the whole thing, as it's for a good cause, and it's more Mickey who thinks it's a bad idea?

"Nobody else does this much for charity!"
"Bob Hope would."
"...That's true."

Thought it was this thread that led me to a great humorous take on Rocky IV. But alas can't see it above. So here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyWx1CkMTtI

ESPN short documentary on the fight in Rocky IV
Saw that a while back and it's great.

"He was retired, he just wanted to spend time with his family, and his robot. Like a normal guy."

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2020, 07:59:57 PM »
Obviously, as a Rocky fan, I'm interested in seeing Stallone's director's cut, but it does sound like he's trying to present a non-preposterous version of Rocky IV. Why? People enjoy the film because of how silly it is, it's very entertaining.

And how is he going to do that exactly? Getting rid of the robot butler and - presumably - that superfluous second-act montage featuring clips from the first three films and scenes from fucking Rocky IV itself will reduce the '80s cheese factor, but it'll still be a film in which Rocky fights a cartoonish Russian supervillain and attempts to end the Cold War with his innocent yet heartfelt street wisdom.

Does he have loads of cut scenes in the vault? Scenes that will somehow add more gravitas to the film? It doesn't seem likely. This feels like another example of Stallone, the artiste, butting heads with Stallone the commercially-minded purveyor of entertaining blockbuster schlock. He should be proud of the fact that he's an Oscar-winning filmmaker, a serious actor and writer, who also has a knack for producing stuff that people enjoy precisely because it's well-made nonsense.

Or maybe he plans to deliver an even stupider version, just for a laugh. I'd respect him for that.

dr beat

  • #TeamColourfield
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2020, 08:20:31 PM »
Obviously, as a Rocky fan, I'm interested in seeing Stallone's director's cut, but it does sound like he's trying to present a non-preposterous version of Rocky IV. Why? People enjoy the film because of how silly it is, it's very entertaining.


I felt Creed 2 was pretty much a non-preposterous Rocky 4.

non capisco

  • A ridiculous boy on a makeshift vehicle
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2020, 08:24:54 PM »
You've actually done that thing where you confuse infer and imply. It's comes up as the thing the smart one picks up on the dumb one doing a lot in fiction, but this is the first time I've noticed a real person doing it.

I'm the smart one by the way.

I know it's been four years but time hasn't healed this wound and I'm flouncing for real this time. Fuck you, MojoJojo, you haughty prick. I'm out of here.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2020, 08:39:34 PM »
Isn't Rocky quite up for the whole thing, as it's for a good cause, and it's more Mickey who thinks it's a bad idea?

You're right - been ages since I've seen it (it's also the one I've seen least of all of them) so I dug it out to watch that sequence, which I completely misremembered.  Hats off.


Obviously, as a Rocky fan, I'm interested in seeing Stallone's director's cut, but it does sound like he's trying to present a non-preposterous version of Rocky IV. Why? People enjoy the film because of how silly it is, it's very entertaining.

There are rumours in the fan community that he's trying to ground it more and make it less over the top, bringing it more in line with what the purists (i.e. those who like 1, 2, elements of 5, Rocky Balboa and Creed 1) want.  But, as far as I know, that is just a theory and not based on anything concrete.


Quote
And how is he going to do that exactly? Getting rid of the robot butler and - presumably - that superfluous second-act montage featuring clips from the first three films and scenes from fucking Rocky IV itself will reduce the '80s cheese factor, but it'll still be a film in which Rocky fights a cartoonish Russian supervillain and attempts to end the Cold War with his innocent yet heartfelt street wisdom.

Apparently he's re-doing the soundtrack (as in the audio, not the music) and some (presumably that have somehow heard it) have said that the punches - which sound like explosions in the existing version of the film - have been replaced with more realistic punch sounds.  We'll see...


Quote
Does he have loads of cut scenes in the vault? Scenes that will somehow add more gravitas to the film?

He does have a LOT of footage sat on the cutting room floor, including stuff that goes some way to "humanise" Drago, that is to say in the existing version he's basically presented as an evil robotic machine, whereas in other footage Stallone shot (including a much extended press interview sequence) he's presented more as a highly trained propaganda tool for the Russian government (not sure if the irony of that was intentional or not).


Quote
Or maybe he plans to deliver an even stupider version, just for a laugh. I'd respect him for that.

Rocky's end speech extended to a 25 minute monologue.


I felt Creed 2 was pretty much a non-preposterous Rocky 4.

I think maybe that's where the theory about him rejigging 4 to ground it more came from, to make it tie in better.  Although, it has to be said, Creed 2 could also be argued to be a preposterous Creed 1...

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2020, 08:50:26 PM »

What the fuck's with all the Creed hate? That was a phenomenal film. One of the best re-boots of any kind in the last twenty years of re-boots, remakes and sequels.

Rocky III
Creed
Rocky
Rocky IV
Creed 2
Rocky Balboa
Rocky II

Haven't seen Rocky V - Not sure if I ever want to.



Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2020, 08:53:25 PM »
I felt Creed 2 was pretty much a non-preposterous Rocky 4.

It was, so I don't really see the point of this. But as I say, I'll watch it.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2020, 09:17:52 PM »
Interesting stuff, SNG, ta. It does all sound like conjecture so far, an extrapolation based on Stallone's flippant announcement that the robot butler won't be included, but I'm intrigued by the idea of scenes in which Drago's character is fleshed out a bit more.

The scene towards the end, where Drago suddenly rebels against his handlers, would make more sense if we'd seen hints of doubt and resentment in him before that.

What the fuck's with all the Creed hate? That was a phenomenal film. One of the best re-boots of any kind in the last twenty years of re-boots, remakes and sequels.

Rocky III
Creed
Rocky
Rocky IV
Creed 2
Rocky Balboa
Rocky II

Haven't seen Rocky V - Not sure if I ever want to.

I agree that Creed is a pretty good film that cleverly reinvigorated what appeared to be a dead franchise, but ranking it above Rocky is madness. Rocky is a truly great film, a classic. The screenplay, the performances, the direction, it's a kind of masterpiece.

And Rocky II is such an underrated film, it's a proper sequel in the sense that it feels like a direct continuation of the original story. It shows what happened afterwards and develops the characters. It works in tandem with the original film; that same grungy heart and humour. Rocky III and IV, while fun, exist on a completely different planet. The fact that Stallone managed to bring it all back home so effectively in Rocky Balboa is rather touching, I think. Yo Adrian, he did it.

dr beat

  • #TeamColourfield
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2020, 09:19:21 PM »
I've only seen Creeds 1 and 2 once through respectively, they were ok but I probably was expecting something more than re-boots of Rocky 1 and 4.  I felt Creed 2 could have benefited from maybe exploring the relationship between Drago and his son in a bit more depth. 

Sly was good in both though.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2020, 09:29:22 PM »
I thought Creed 2 started off poorly, but it got better as it went along. Drago's development was great.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2020, 09:29:40 PM »
I felt Creed 2 could have benefited from maybe exploring the relationship between Drago and his son in a bit more depth.


Such a missed opportunity, as it appeared to be heading that way at first. But no, a potentially interesting storyline was abandoned - Stallone and his co-writer presumably included more of that stuff in earlier drafts.

Sly was good in both though.

He was. I like the way he plays older Rocky in such an understated way, he never overdoes the pathos. It's just there, always, in his weary old bear performance.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2020, 09:35:47 PM »
And Rocky II is such an underrated film, it's a proper sequel in the sense that it feels like a direct continuation of the original story. It shows what happened afterwards and develops the characters. It works in tandem with the original film

Indeed so - it's more Rocky 1 Part 2 than a "traditional" sequel.  Also agreed on Balboa.  I'm pleased that its general critical stock has improved with time, not that it was poorly received first time around, but it drew lots of comparisons to the previous year's Cinderella Man, with those making the comparisons coming very heavily on the side of Cinderella Man, which to this day is considered as one of the masterpieces in the world of boxing films whilst Balboa is more of an also-ran.  Now, I saw both at the cinema and have seen both subsequently a few times since, and it bewilders me how anyone can think the sick-making soft-focus schmaltz of Cinderella Man is in any way more worthy than the genuine pathos of Balboa (cf. the scene in Balboa where Paulie is handed his pink slip - shot at night, from a distance, no dialogue, whilst Ron Howard shovels dessert spoons of sugar topped with honey and marshmallows down your throat).  Madness.   But then I absolutely hate Cinderella Man, sooooo........


Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2020, 09:52:13 PM »


I agree that Creed is a pretty good film that cleverly reinvigorated what appeared to be a dead franchise, but ranking it above Rocky is madness. Rocky is a truly great film, a classic. The screenplay, the performances, the direction, it's a kind of masterpiece.

And Rocky II is such an underrated film, it's a proper sequel in the sense that it feels like a direct continuation of the original story. It shows what happened afterwards and develops the characters. It works in tandem with the original film; that same grungy heart and humour. Rocky III and IV, while fun, exist on a completely different planet. The fact that Stallone managed to bring it all back home so effectively in Rocky Balboa is rather touching, I think. Yo Adrian, he did it.

The thing is, I watched III & IV *endlessly* on VHS as a kid and didn't actually get around to watching the original until around the time Rocky Balboa came out, by which time it had been parodied so many times and I'd seen all the clips that it didn't have the impact on me that it should have done (although, I didn't know how it ended). Conversely, I had zero expectations for Creed so by the time that film ended I was in floods of tears and it gave me hope that it was still possible to re-boot a franchise is an original way that blended nostalgia with modern film making*. It even made my Top Ten films of the decade when I did my Top 50 at the end of 2019.

So, I hear you - Rocky is indeed a fine and important film, but when it comes to my ranking, I can't forget the love I have for Creed. I expect if I was to do a re-watch of the whole lot in, say, another ten years, Rocky will take the top spot.

EDIT: I've only ever seen Rocky II once, hence the low ranking.

(* I've spent the day binge watching the first season of Cobra Kai on Netflix which has been an absolute blast and has also restored my faith in film and TV being able to bring back an old franchise while making it relevant to a new generation). 



Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2020, 11:21:49 PM »
So, I hear you - Rocky is indeed a fine and important film, but when it comes to my ranking, I cant forget the love I have for Creed. I expect if I was to do a re-watch of the whole lot in, say, another ten years, Rocky will take the top spot.

Fair enough, I totally understand. And I'm sorry for implying that your Rocky ranking was WRONG, that was a bit arsey of me. With the exception of Rocky V, there's something to enjoy in all the films in the series.

Incidentally, I watched Rambo: Last Blood the other night. Jesus Christ, what an appalling film. I wasn't expecting greatness, I've read the reviews, but it's irredeemable. Racist, idiotic and just deeply unpleasant on every level.

I know, I know, it's a Rambo sequel, that's what they're like, but this was supposedly Stallone's attempt to end the Rambo saga on an elegiac note a la Rocky Balboa. Y'know, a return to the grit and soul of the first film, an atonement for the point-missing excess of the sequels. That's how he promoted it anyway.

Well he was talking out of his arse. If it wasn't a Rambo film it would've gone direct to DVD or streaming services. A cheap and nasty piece of shit.

I don't think Stallone has ever really cared about the John Rambo character. He didn't create him, it was just another role that turned out to be his second most popular alter ego. He cares about Rocky Balboa, that character changed his life, and he will die a happy man knowing that he managed to rescue the franchise while restoring his dignity as a filmmaker. Glowing reviews, serious award nominations, the works.

But Rambo? Just a money-making machine for old Sly. A one-dimensional character who allowed him to explore his violent reactionary fantasies. First Blood is a great film, it's basically an anti-war tirade, a compassionate commentary on the shameful post-Vietnam treatment of soldiers with PTSD (but with lots of cool action and stuff). Every Rambo film after that involves Sly killing foreign bad guys in a variety of hyper-violent ways. Horrible.

tl;dr: Sylvester Stallone has never really worked out what sort of artist he wants to be. His oeuvre is wildly inconsistent. 


Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2020, 11:40:03 PM »
I think Stallone has made way more Rambo II's, Demolition Man's and Judge Dredd's than he has Rocky's and First Blood's.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2020, 11:56:20 PM »
Absolutely vital to think about Paradise Alley when thinking about Stallone's career. It's not even that bad (beyond the title song, fuck knows what he was thinking deciding to sing it...), but it was such a sincere effort and he obviously felt totally humiliated by it. He very rarely tries to be sincere and almost never outside of the Rocky franchise (Copland in 1997 is the only one that springs to mind).


Rocky II is the obvious follow up to Rocky, it gets a bit underappreciated because of that but it does everything you'd want from it surely?

Rocky III is Stallone trying to straddle a very awkward line of his ascending stardom as a meathead action dude alongside Rocky. In some respects it's pretty clever how he used footage from his own rise to coincide with Rocky losing his way (opening montage is a series highlight imo). It ultimately falters a bit with the end and, like someone said further up, it's just hard to take Mr T seriously in that role now (but he was PERFECT for that role at that time). Burgess Meredith just about saves it in terms of sincere emotion too.

Rocky IV is basically all the worst parts of III doubled down on. I hate it, watched it again recently and even a load of cocaine couldn't get me engaged. The manner in which they build up Drago via the Creed fight is the only thing I like in it at all. I think a big chunk of the issue for me is the montage songs just aren't ones I give a shit about on any level, like, Eye of the Tiger had me hyped as fuck as a six year old for Rocky III, and it still hits that a bit, Rocky IV doesn't.

Rocky V is a mess but I like to think that Stallone was confused and a bit disgusted with himself over IV and overcompensated hugely as a result. I think the overcompensation was ultimately a positive because it led the way to...

...Rocky Balboa, where you've got a fundamentally sad but mostly pleasant Rocky. He's in a role that fits him, and the pretty silly final fight never feels like it's treated as anything more than an honorary lap with a super super tiny "but what if". It's nice.

Creed is pretty great, took a while to get going but I remember by the time the fight was going I was like "whoa, fuck, I'm super into this!" Coogler done the same with Black Panther so I imagine it was heavily him.




I don't think you could've had Creed without Rocky Balboa, and I think you needed something like the disaster of V to allow Rocky Balboa to work too. What even was the end of V? A brain damaged man managed to beat up a younger man in an alleyway? Taking serious head trauma along the way? Am I remembering that correctly??

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

  • a hopeless vanity... a stupefyingly futile conceit
Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2020, 12:12:03 AM »
I think Stallone has made way more Rambo II's, Demolition Man's and Judge Dredd's than he has Rocky's and First Blood's.

Demolition Man is a fun film. But yes, he's made so many shit films. And some great ones. Demolition Man, though, is an example of him trying something different. A satire!

Mister Six

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Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2020, 04:15:29 AM »
Never seen a Rocky. Is it worth watching if I:

- Don't care about boxing,
- Don't like sports movies,
- Don't have any particular affection for Stallone,
- Never watched any of these films as a kid so have no inbuilt affection for them

?

I have been to the Rocky steps in Philadelphia, if that helps.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2020, 08:44:36 AM »
The original is a proper 70s film. Grimy and downbeat. Definitely worth a watch.

Re: Rocky IV
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2020, 09:01:32 AM »
I don't care about real boxing. It always makes me wish was watching a fight from a Rocky film instead.