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Rocky IV

Started by hewantstolurkatad, August 23, 2016, 06:07:00 PM

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colacentral

Quote from: Mister Six on September 04, 2020, 04:15:29 AM
Never seen a Rocky. Is it worth watching if I:

- Don't care about boxing,
- Don't like sports movies,
- Don't have any particular affection for Stallone,
- Never watched any of these films as a kid so have no inbuilt affection for them

?

I have been to the Rocky steps in Philadelphia, if that helps.

The first film is more of a romantic drama than a sport film, and deserving of it's best picture oscar. Everyone should see that, at least.

EOLAN

Quote from: colacentral on September 04, 2020, 09:45:14 AM
The first film is more of a romantic drama than a sport film, and deserving of it's best picture oscar. Everyone should see that, at least.

Although some podcasts I have listened to try to spend half the pod' talking about how problematic the romantic development is in this day and age.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Gulftastic on September 04, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
The original is a proper 70s film. Grimy and downbeat. Definitely worth a watch.

Yes, based on Mister Six's remarks I think the original film is the best bet. It is a domestic (not sure about romantic) drama though I actually think the boxing scenes give it the tempo and cadence it lacks at points. Watching it back it's quite shocking just how disinterested it is in being a blockbuster movie in comparison to what followed. There's some stodge in there but it all builds character. Regardless of sporting interest the stakes it sets up are what make the film interesting and appealing.

I'd challenge most people to not get sucked into caring about the final, boxing based outcome.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 03, 2020, 11:21:49 PM
Fair enough, I totally understand. And I'm sorry for implying that your Rocky ranking was WRONG, that was a bit arsey of me. With the exception of Rocky V, there's something to enjoy in all the films in the series.

Incidentally, I watched Rambo: Last Blood the other night. Jesus Christ, what an appalling film. I wasn't expecting greatness, I've read the reviews, but it's irredeemable. Racist, idiotic and just deeply unpleasant on every level.

I know, I know, it's a Rambo sequel, that's what they're like, but this was supposedly Stallone's attempt to end the Rambo saga on an elegiac note a la Rocky Balboa. Y'know, a return to the grit and soul of the first film, an atonement for the point-missing excess of the sequels. That's how he promoted it anyway.

Well he was talking out of his arse. If it wasn't a Rambo film it would've gone direct to DVD or streaming services. A cheap and nasty piece of shit.

I don't think Stallone has ever really cared about the John Rambo character. He didn't create him, it was just another role that turned out to be his second most popular alter ego. He cares about Rocky Balboa, that character changed his life, and he will die a happy man knowing that he managed to rescue the franchise while restoring his dignity as a filmmaker. Glowing reviews, serious award nominations, the works.

But Rambo? Just a money-making machine for old Sly. A one-dimensional character who allowed him to explore his violent reactionary fantasies. First Blood is a great film, it's basically an anti-war tirade, a compassionate commentary on the shameful post-Vietnam treatment of soldiers with PTSD (but with lots of cool action and stuff). Every Rambo film after that involves Sly killing foreign bad guys in a variety of hyper-violent ways. Horrible.

tl;dr: Sylvester Stallone has never really worked out what sort of artist he wants to be. His oeuvre is wildly inconsistent.

I didn't think that Last Blood was that bad, at least if you just take it purely at face value as a violent mindless action film - it's an 80s no-brain Cannon genre flick that just happened to be made well into the 21st century.  But I'll acknowledge that's ALL it is and there's absolutely nothing "worthy" about it whatsoever.  But I maintain that Rambo 4 (or John Rambo as it SHOULD have been called over here) - the Rambo film that Stallone had the most involvement with - is a genuinely half decent film, and it WAS and should have been the elegiac end to the saga (it even finishes with him returning home).


Quote from: peanutbutter on September 03, 2020, 11:56:20 PM
Absolutely vital to think about Paradise Alley when thinking about Stallone's career. It's not even that bad (beyond the title song, fuck knows what he was thinking deciding to sing it...), but it was such a sincere effort and he obviously felt totally humiliated by it. He very rarely tries to be sincere and almost never outside of the Rocky franchise (Copland in 1997 is the only one that springs to mind).

You can add The Lords Of Flatbush and F.I.S.T. to that list.  Flatbush is hampered by being very low budget and having a relatively amateur crew, but it is otherwise "serious" film-making.  F.I.S.T. is a proper film and, I think, one of the most underrated in Stallone's entire career.  I think I'm right in saying he was supposed to direct it, but was too busy with Paradise Alley and prepping Rocky 2, so he got in Norman Jewison instead and to also help him rewrite Joe Eszterhas' script (although Eszterhas still has the main credit, there's apparently very little of his original script left with most of it being rewritten by Stallone with help from Jewison).  But it's a really good film, and for my money it's right up there in his catalogue.


Quote from: EOLAN on September 04, 2020, 10:14:09 AM
Although some podcasts I have listened to try to spend half the pod' talking about how problematic the romantic development is in this day and age.

Even in this day and age I would disagree with that - I personally don't think there's anything problematic about it at all, at least as a cinematic love story.  But, either way, it was made in the mid 70s and people back then didn't have a crystal ball telling them what would and wouldn't be okay post 2010.  So, whoever those podcasters are, they can fuck right off frankly.

dr beat

Quote from: Mister Six on September 04, 2020, 04:15:29 AM
Never seen a Rocky. Is it worth watching if I:

- Don't care about boxing,
- Don't like sports movies,
- Don't have any particular affection for Stallone,
- Never watched any of these films as a kid so have no inbuilt affection for them

?

I have been to the Rocky steps in Philadelphia, if that helps.

Yes I'd go with watching Rockys 1-3 in sequence, its all about the continuity.  Rocky 4 for me is where it gets a bit daft but then then Reagan/Thatchers 80s were daft in real life.  Rocky 6/Balboa I love, its such a movie with heart and I'm now in the mood to watch it again.  Our very own Bad Ambassador made an interesting point on his podcast that the Rocky and Creed films mirror Sly Stallone's entire movie career and I totally agree with that.

One thing I'll say in favour of Creed 1 is that IMO its the best and most realistic depiction of Liverpool and Scousers by Hollywood, even though they're the antagonists in the film.  Probably just as well it was set in Goodison Park ;)

dr beat

The premise of Rocky Balboa isn't that daft. I can remember when George Foreman went back into the ring at 46, and while I'm not a boxing expert aren't people like Pacaiquo fighting well into their 40s? Also it's made clear that the fight in Rocky 6 is a 10 round exhibition bout.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: dr beat on September 04, 2020, 04:14:28 PM
The premise of Rocky Balboa isn't that daft. I can remember when George Foreman went back into the ring at 46, and while I'm not a boxing expert aren't people like Pacaiquo fighting well into their 40s? Also it's made clear that the fight in Rocky 6 is a 10 round exhibition bout.

It's absolutely not daft at all.  It's also made clear that Mason Dixon is out of shape and out of practice and isn't too bothered about the fight, plus he gets a substantial injury early on.  I still think, however, that
Spoiler alert
Rocky should have lost (on points) outright rather than it being an almost draw, because in Balboa it's back to being all about going the distance again, so if he loses it doesn't matter.
[close]

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 04, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
I didn't think that Last Blood was that bad, at least if you just take it purely at face value as a violent mindless action film - it's an 80s no-brain Cannon genre flick that just happened to be made well into the 21st century.  But I'll acknowledge that's ALL it is and there's absolutely nothing "worthy" about it whatsoever.

Yeah, you're right. It's not as if it pretends to be anything other than what it is, but I didn't find it entertaining even as a mindlessly violent B-movie. To be honest, I've never enjoyed any of the First Blood sequels. I suppose III is a half-decent '80s action film, and John Rambo (definitely should've been the title) has
Spoiler alert
that insanely violent final showdown going for it
[close]
. The last scene, as you say, was a good, bordering on poignant way of ending such a stupid franchise. But then it turned out not to be the end after all.

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 04, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
You can add The Lords Of Flatbush and F.I.S.T. to that list.  Flatbush is hampered by being very low budget and having a relatively amateur crew, but it is otherwise "serious" film-making.  F.I.S.T. is a proper film and, I think, one of the most underrated in Stallone's entire career.  I think I'm right in saying he was supposed to direct it, but was too busy with Paradise Alley and prepping Rocky 2, so he got in Norman Jewison instead and to also help him rewrite Joe Eszterhas' script (although Eszterhas still has the main credit, there's apparently very little of his original script left with most of it being rewritten by Stallone with help from Jewison).  But it's a really good film, and for my money it's right up there in his catalogue.

I agree with this. My only real problem with F.I.S.T is
Spoiler alert
that massive, jarring time-jump from the early '40s to the early '60s. I appreciate that Stallone and Jewison had to whittle down Eszterhas' bloated screenplay into something manageable, but it destroys the momentum of the solid first and second acts.
[close]

I really must watch The Lords of Flatbush again, as I remember enjoying it. A pretty good low-budget indie film.

I used to love Paradise Alley as a kid, but its flaws became apparent when I rewatched it again quite recently. The characters played by Stallone and Assante undergo unexplained changes of agenda as the film progresses, and the whole thing feels quite slight really. But for a first-time director, Stallone does a great job of creating a distinctive, grungy, stylised world. You can practically smell it. And his screenplay is often quite funny, he has an ear for colourful dialogue. It's not a bad film at all.

druss

Quote from: MojoJojo on August 23, 2016, 11:39:39 PM
You've actually done that thing where you confuse infer and imply. It's comes up as the thing the smart one picks up on the dumb one doing a lot in fiction, but this is the first time I've noticed a real person doing it.

I'm the smart one by the way.

Dusty Substance

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 03, 2020, 11:21:49 PM
Fair enough, I totally understand. And I'm sorry for implying that your Rocky ranking was WRONG, that was a bit arsey of me. With the exception of Rocky V, there's something to enjoy in all the films in the series.

Incidentally, I watched Rambo: Last Blood the other night. Jesus Christ, what an appalling film. I wasn't expecting greatness, I've read the reviews, but it's irredeemable. Racist, idiotic and just deeply unpleasant on every level.

No need to apologise at all, mate. We're all Rocky Heads, and that's what counts.

Like the Rocky films, I watched the Rambo films completely out sequence and so have a different relationship to them than most. In my early teens I'd watch Part II and III again and again on VHS. Then John Rambo 4, or whatever the official title is, just once when it came out on DVD. At the time I was totally unprepared for the amount of sheer bloody violence in that one. The whole second act was like that bit in Predator when they raid the compound, but instead of five minutes it was for 40 minutes. Entertaining and short, but never had any desire to rewatch the fourth one.

Then it wasn't until just a few years ago that I finally watched First Blood. It's clearly the best one and, unlike the other three, it actually had a point. Something to say about how the treatment of veterans- An anti-war message that was totally lost in the gung ho sequels (didn't Regan mention Part 2 when making a speech about war?).

I'm not going to bother with Last Blood.


DrGreggles

This thread has made me realise that I don't think I've ever seen Rocky III.

Dusty Substance

FWIW: My Top Ten* non-Rocky Stallones.

1. Demolition Man
2. First Blood
3. Cop Land
4. Cliffhanger**
5. Death Race 2000
6. Rambo: First Blood Part 2
7. Antz***
8. Escape Plan****
9. Rambo III
10. Rambo 4

HM: His brief appearance in Bananas

* These are all the non-Rocky Stallones I've seen
** Cliffhanger had maybe the best trailer of the 90s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZALfW1ohRI
*** Voice acting counts, right?
**** Way better than expected - Might be placed higher after a second viewing



DrGreggles

Demolition Man is great fun.

Gulftastic


Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Gulftastic on September 09, 2020, 11:46:42 AM
No 'Bananas'?

Dusty mentioned it.  Brief appearance (as Dusty also said) that can't even be called a cameo as he wasn't yet a recognised actor.

Blumf

Been ages since I've seen Bananas. Here's his cameo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blOUfHFaNvs

kalowski

Quote from: DrGreggles on September 08, 2020, 11:27:42 PM
This thread has made me realise that I don't think I've ever seen Rocky III.
Neither have I. I have read the Mad Magazine spoof Rockhead III if that counts for anything.


Dusty Substance

Quote from: DrGreggles on September 09, 2020, 10:52:09 AM
Demolition Man is great fun.

It 's a blast. I loved it in the 90s and then revisited it a few times in recent years and loved it even more. A gloriously coked up performance from Snipes.

Makes an interesting double-bill with Sleeper.


Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Another big thumbs up for Demolition Man, it's a smart, funny film. Sly does satire!

I really must watch Escape Plan, Dusty, it sounds like fun.

As for other decent non-Rocky/Rambo Stallone films, I'm sort of vaguely fond of Nighthawks (1981), even though it's a mess and objectively rubbish. But it does have one big thing in its favour - Rutger Hauer, in his first Hollywood role, playing a psychotic terrorist. It's worth watching just for him and
Spoiler alert
an utterly ridiculous bit towards the end involving Sly as you've never seen him before or since
[close]
. Billy Dee Williams is in it too as cop Sly's partner, but he doesn't get much to do.

Oh, and it's mired in that grimy early '80s New York aesthetic where everything looks like shit. Which I always enjoy seeing.

Blumf

Escape Plan is a nice, daft premise, film. Probably the best film you could hope for getting ageing Sly and Arnie together on screen. Good bit of tension, some decent action, and holds your attention. Solid B+.

EOLAN

Another lover of Demolition Man. One of my favorite films as a child.
Finally saw the Lion King later as an adult (the cartoon) and it just struck me that was Mufasa was essentially Nigel Hawthorne  with Denis Leary and his cohorts representing the hyenas.

Dusty Substance

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 10, 2020, 08:16:04 PM
I really must watch Escape Plan, Dusty, it sounds like fun.


You really must! Blumf's assessment is spot on. Having heard only bad things, I never bothered with The Expendables films but Escape Plan was great fun. A highlight of Netflix binges during lockdown.

bgmnts

I thought it was a tad disappointing tbh but then I would say that.

dissolute ocelot

Escape Plan is great fun, but Arnie totally steals it from Stallone: Arnie's mad inmate is so much more entertaining than Stallone's security expert. But then Arnie's the best thing in Terminator: Dark Fate (Linda Hamilton is good, but much better when Arnie is around). I've not seen the Schwarzenegger-less Escape Plan 2 with Stallone and Bautista.

Blumf

Get Carter (2000) was on just now. I understand Stallone regrets it, which, frankly, he should.

Just so very boring, every change from the original made things worse. The direction was flat, filled with pointless little flourishes that, far from adding something, diminished scenes. There were a few car chases that could have been pretty good, if it wasn't for the lacklustre and distracting editing. IMDB's 5.2/10 rating is generous.

Do yourself a favour, and avoid the Sony Moives channel between 0130h-0225h on Tuesday morning.

Gulftastic

Quote from: Blumf on September 19, 2020, 01:41:30 AM
Get Carter (2000) was on just now. I understand Stallone regrets it, which, frankly, he should.

Just so very boring, every change from the original made things worse. The direction was flat, filled with pointless little flourishes that, far from adding something, diminished scenes. There were a few car chases that could have been pretty good, if it wasn't for the lacklustre and distracting editing. IMDB's 5.2/10 rating is generous.

Do yourself a favour, and avoid the Sony Moives channel between 0130h-0225h on Tuesday morning.


I'm curious now to see a car chase round the streets of Gateshead.

Blumf

Quote from: Gulftastic on September 19, 2020, 08:30:52 AM
I'm curious now to see a car chase round the streets of Gateshead.

They had car action in the original film. Some laundry out to dry got disturbed.

The remake's car chases could have been it's saving grace, there was clearly some good stunt work there, but it was so badly filmed. Oh well.

Want to see the Blaxploitation version now:  Hit Man (1972) It's got Pam Grier and everything.

Dusty Substance


Yeah, it's been a year but I'm bumping this thread because there's a date (Nov. 11th) and a trailer for the director's cut of Rocky IV.

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/sylvester-stallone-rocky-iv-cut-see-the-trailer-for-the-new-version/

non capisco

Will we finally get to see Paulie shag the robot?

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: non capisco on October 01, 2021, 09:48:47 AM
Will we finally get to see Paulie shag the robot?

I'm afraid not, all the robot butler scenes have been cut. So apart from that, this new cut is... exactly the same as the original? I didn't spot any previously unseen footage in the trailer.