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War for the Planet of the Apes.

Started by Glebe, October 06, 2016, 07:38:34 PM

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Timothy

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on July 12, 2017, 12:05:41 AM
Just got back from this and I thought overall it was slow, ponderous and dull. The CGI was very impressive though, really excellent. Harrelson was shit, his performance felt like a remix of every military mentalist ever, and it didn't help that the filmmakers put in a couple of Kurtz references.

Agreed. Very boring. Rise of the Planet of the Apes was the best.

Custard

Just on way home from this, and I'm in the positive camp. Thought it was excellent, and a nice end to the trilogy. That's how you do a trio of prequels Lucas, you cow

Very grim, and a couple of things towards the end made me groan a bit, but its a very satisfying finale if you enjoyed the previous films

Twit 2

Thought it was very good, but slightly less enjoyable than the 2nd. It looks incredible and I admire how restrained the action and set pieces are in proportion to the film. It takes confidence and skill to make blockbuster more about character-driven drama than empty spectacle. Reeves could give Bay and the like a lesson in how to fill an entire wide frame with spectacle without resorting to rapid editing. They're probably the best-directed blockbusters around, with the exception of wildcard stuff like Mad Max.

I actually quite liked Harrelson's character and performance, having gone in expecting something worse. He's very good at that kind of menacing stock character and he did his best with the material.
There's the occasional hokey line (the apes' sign language stuff, for example, but that could just be because you're seeing the dialogue laid bare on screen). Overall, the series is refreshing in how it eschews so many action movie tropes. You can tell everything has been thought through properly and done with care. Might not be a coincidence that the coherence derives from having only two credited writers (one of whom is the director) as opposed to these vehicles where there's eight writers on screen as well as it being whored round town in sloppy uncredited seconds.

colacentral

I need to watch it again as I was a bit tired when I watched it, and a bit nervous as I'd hyped this since it was first announced and have been dying to see it. For those reasons it felt like a let down. I still think Dawn is the best of the three. It had more interesting human characters, and an inherently more interesting conflict between the main protagonist and antagonist. "War" feels more like an epilogue to "Dawn" rather than the climax of a trilogy.

The title is completely inaccurate - I feel like the writers set off on a mission to write a movie called "War for the Planet of the Apes" but in planning it out came up with this prison escape concept, and still felt forced to use this idea of it being an Ape / Human war based on the ending of Dawn. Ceasar and the Colonel talk about it being a war constantly but you see no evidence of this - it's a small group of apes in a few skirmishes with a small group of humans. You never get a feeling of it being a national or global thing. I'm not saying I want that, just that it feels like the filmmakers were hog tied to this idea of a war while wanting to tell a smaller story. "Escape from the Planet of the Apes" would maybe have been a better title if it wasn't already taken.

There were a few things in this one that I didn't buy. I didn't buy the colonel's back story, and I didn't like his exposition dump monologue about it. I'm not sure if I like the idea of the flu mutation, and it was that sort of thing (taking shortcuts to explain how the original Planet of the Apes came about) that annoyed me about Rise. I would have just preferred some ambiguous implication via the mere existence of the mute girl and her friendship with the apes about how the humans of the original came to be how they were - I didn't need it to be a major plot point. And in relation to that, I saw the colonel's fate coming a mile away.

The prison wasn't well guarded enough either, which was another thing that took me out of it. I can usually just accept film logic but I can't accept there being no guards watching the apes for the majority of the night time scenes.

Having said that, I still liked it and there were alot of memorable, moving scenes. I was holding back tears at a few points.

colacentral

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on July 12, 2017, 12:05:41 AM
Just got back from this and I thought overall it was slow, ponderous and dull. The CGI was very impressive though, really excellent. Harrelson was shit, his performance felt like a remix of every military mentalist ever, and it didn't help that the filmmakers put in a couple of Kurtz references.

It's getting very very favourable reviews though, so I'm willing to accept that I'm on my own with this one.

I'd still recommend watching the first two, "Dawn" especially. I am a huge fan of the first two and for that reason I was invested in "War," but I can absolutely understand your criticism if you're coming into this fresh and watching it as a standalone film. As I said in my previous post, this feels like an epilogue to the second one to me.

Custard

I can't imagine seeing this one as a standalone film, as it's very much tied to the previous two. I probably wouldn't give a shit about Caesar if I didn't know his history and how he came to be what he is

So yes, deffo see the first two! It makes for an excellent, consistent, very strong trilogy

I do hope they leave it there, though. Another go at Planet Of The Apes seems a bit pointless, and warring ape tribes probably wouldn't put as many bums on seats, if they go that route.

Matt Reeves is great though. Looking forward to what he does with Affleck's Batman

Custard

Oh, and Steve Zahn stole the show in this, as "Bad Ape". What a great little character to stick in, so late in the day

Timothy

Really? I thought Bad Ape was one of the worst additions to War of the Apes. Totally unfunny and destroyed the realism in every scene he was in.
I saw some forums compare him to Jar Jar Banks. That comparison is imo not far off.

Custard

#68
No way! Thought he was really likeable! (Though I can see why he'd not be for everyone)

He'd BATTER Jar Jar Binks. One punch

Glebe

Saw it last night (in 3D)... it doesn't have the immediacy of the previous films, and it is a little slow in places, with some rambling sequences, but otherwise it's quite an impactful film. Beautifully shot, with some really stunning vistas (it feels like a western as much as war film in places), and an effective soundtrack. Some really tense, atmospheric scenes (there's  kind of an Alien vibe to the sequence where the soldiers invade the apes' lair).

As someone already said, it really is grim as fuck, found it quite emotive and even upsetting in places. Some fairly obvious analogues to current political events (the building of the wall in particular). The effects work is truly stunning, natch, and it's getting scary now how realistically rendered the apes are. Andy Serkis' performance is, of course, terrific. I liked Bad Ape, but as has been suggested, his light-relief antics were occasionally a little inapt; I'm thinking of one moment in particular, where he looks through the wrong end of the binoculars, following one particularly harrowing scene. Was expecting Harrelson's performance to be really OTT, but he was fine.

So yeah, overall, quite impressive.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: Glebe on July 20, 2017, 01:57:37 PM
(there's  kind of an Alien vibe to the sequence where the soldiers invade the apes' lair).

And is Nova, Newt?

Just returned from the cinema. I really enjoyed it and didn't find the film ponderous at all. I loved Bad Ape and thought Harrelson was perfectly fine and surprisingly restrained in the deranged villain role. Didn't mind the Kurtz nod and there were a few more Apocalypse Now references, I noticed.  Yes, Serkis needs more acknowledgment as an actor. 

Glebe

#71
Quote from: Brundle-Fly on July 20, 2017, 06:53:00 PMAnd is Nova, Newt?

Heh... btw, speaking of Nova:

Director Insists 'War For the Planet of the Apes' Nova Is A Brand-New Character.

It wouldn't fit the timeline if she was supposed to be her, but it any case, I felt it was a bit too obvious as a homage... the Alpha/Omega thing is a nice little nod, though. Plus there's the apes on the crosses (men in the original though, of course) and the lake they reach at the end of the film, which looks very much like the location where Taylor and crew crash. I was kinda thinking.. is Maurice possibly supposed to be Battle for the Planet of the Apes' Lawgiver?... nah, that wouldn't add up though, would it?

On a side note, I'm thrilled that Reeves is doing the forthcoming Batman solo film.

Glebe

What Happened To Jason Clarke's Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes Character.

QuoteWhen asked if Clarke and Keri Russell's Dawn characters were ever mentioned in a War script, Reeves revealed:

"Yeah, they were, actually. Specifically Jason's character was, and it was a disturbing discovery. The Colonel had revealed some information about a man who'd come to him when he first got to the city and impressed upon him how important it was to find Caesar, and to tell him that he needed to create peace with this man. That this ape was not just an ape, but was a great leader, and he thought that this guy was crazy. And now [the Colonel] said in the scene, he goes, 'I se what he meant.' And then Caesar says, 'Well, what happened to him?' And The Colonel said, "I killed him." And then [Caesar]'s is perplexed as to why, and The Colonel says, "His ideas were very dangerous because the ideas were like a virus and they could spread to others, and right now this is a fight for humanity." So that's what happened."

Matt Reeves then started to explain in his interview on the Happy Sad Confused podcast why this scene was taken out of War for the Planet of the Apes, but he cut himself off for fear of divulging any spoilers. It's possible this moment might be included as a deleted scene on the War home media release, but if it isn't, at least Planet of the Apes fans know what happened to Malcolm following Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, even though it was a tragic demise.

Hmmm.

weekender

Bad Ape was obviously light comic relief in what was, overall, a fairly grim film as others have noted.

However for me he stuck out like a really bad sore thumb.

To my mind, if you're going to make a grim movie about war, then you do so via the grotesque nature of what the characters have become - like Kurtz, Kilgore et al.  You shouldn't just stick a comedy character in there because of the bleakness of war and the fact that the audience might find the slog hard to take, which is what I felt happened in this film.

Dennis Hopper's character worked in Apocalypse Now because you could believe he was a slightly deranged photographer who'd taken too many drugs and was just surviving somehow on his own in a mad jungle.  Bad Ape, arguably the equivalent character in this Apes film, didn't work for me because none of his character made sense.  If he'd lived in a zoo most of his life, there's no way he'd have a) actually have learned to talk and b) ended up living in some sort of isolated mansion on his own somewhere.  He'd have been shot a long time ago.

Mind you, it was quite amusing watching all the apes being shot, and him not having a clue what to do.

I just think that if you get rid of Bad Ape, it would have been a stronger film.

weekender

Oh yeah, and the fact that no-one - not even the hundreds of soldiers rushing past - noticed the apes were gone from their prison?

Fucking shit.

weekender

Decent enough watch though, I'd give it 6/8.

newbridge

Haven't seen the new one yet, but the first two were good (the first more so than the second). Haven't they ruined the message of the original science fiction concept though? The apes took over because mankind blew itself up, whereas here mankind went extinct because they were trying to cure Alzheimer's disease...?

Sin Agog

Mankind does actually blow itself up in the new one, and that's maybe its biggest flaw.  There's nothing like a giant keg of explosives when you're in need of a deus ex machina to usher in the ending.  Did really dig it though, and I never got around to the second one as the person I went with brought their four year old daughter (after me telling him this was not the movie for her) and we had to leave when she started with the conniption fits.

Caesar here actually really brought to mind Bowie's character in Merry Christmas, Mr Lawrence.  I wonder if any of that was at all intentional.

Glebe

Quote from: Sin Agog on July 22, 2017, 09:44:41 PMMankind does actually blow itself up in the new one, and that's maybe its biggest flaw.  There's nothing like a giant keg of explosives when you're in need of a deus ex machina to usher in the ending.

There are surely still humans knocking around, but they're all gonna devolve and become slaves to our ape overlords, who I, for one, welcome.

weekender

Felt like it was a faction of mankind blowing itself up.

TrenterPercenter

Awesome film best of the 3 for me, replace the apes with humans of any denomination and you've got a very controversial film.  Really quite baffled at those that didn't like it as I'm a right cantankerous git with movies but this was just sublime and utterly brutal.

Custard

Quote from: weekender on July 22, 2017, 09:13:18 PM
Oh yeah, and the fact that no-one - not even the hundreds of soldiers rushing past - noticed the apes were gone from their prison?

Fucking shit.

They did though! A soldier stopped and glared at the empty cage, and did a face

TrenterPercenter

Errr don't want to give any spoilers but there was a reason they didn't pay too much attention to the apes which is the same reason they were rushing.

Weird critique.  Just read another 1 star review from some ex-marine again questioning the supposed logic of the soldiers and how "primative" they were........there is quite a big obvious theme throughout the film that you might want to consider before this becomes life emulating art.

colacentral

Quote from: newbridge on July 22, 2017, 09:30:18 PM
Haven't seen the new one yet, but the first two were good (the first more so than the second). Haven't they ruined the message of the original science fiction concept though? The apes took over because mankind blew itself up, whereas here mankind went extinct because they were trying to cure Alzheimer's disease...?

I agree on not liking the drug element to explain the intelligent apes, but for that reason (amongst others) I much preferred the second, as it didn't have any of those lab scenes and took place post-apocalypse. It also had a superior cast (Rise has the worst cast of a film I actually like of any film I can think of.)

I like Bad Ape too. He's more of a sad character than a funny one really.

kidsick5000

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 24, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
Errr don't want to give any spoilers but there was a reason they didn't pay too much attention to the apes which is the same reason they were rushing.

Yeah. There is an element of wondering what film people were watching.
They may be a nameless mass but they'll still have priorities


Timothy

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 24, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
Errr don't want to give any spoilers but there was a reason they didn't pay too much attention to the apes which is the same reason they were rushing.

It's still a bad reason though. The apes were as much as a threat.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Timothy on July 25, 2017, 09:04:39 AM
It's still a bad reason though. The apes were as much as a threat.

OK Spoiler ALERT.

The apes are not as much a threat, they are hunted and brought to the human zoo to build a wall.  The real enemy is the other HUMANS.  I think you need to consider that humans are already sick before the Colonel stops being able to speak....and that inside every intelligent ape (humans are apes) is a regressive primative form of either anger (Koba/Colonel) or love (Maurice/Nova), and there is a battle between the two (Caesar/the army dude with the crossbow/the donkey with the grenade thrower).

The idea that the humans are behaving like swarming, unthinking masses building a futile wall is related to the virus and is also an excellent allegory for current affairs.


Humans get sick. Apes get smart.

Kelvin

SPOILERS


I was very disappointed, tbh. The first hour, when it felt like a road movie or revenge thriller, I was a bit bored, but generally enjoying it. However, from the point where they arrived at Kurtz' camp, the film nosedived majorly. For a start, far too many events hinged on characters making bizarre or unbelievable decisions; Nova just trotting into the base to feed Ceaser some grain? The army sending helicopters, tanks and thousands of troops to take on a mad general who was killing the apes they're scared of, at a time of global catastrophe?

If the first and second films succeed because you can absolutely see both competing points of view and why things would escalate, this film fails because so much of the story and so many of the events would only occur in an artificial world where they have to happen to move the story along. Ironic, then, that by the end of this film, almost nothing of significance has actually changed since the end of the second film. In fact, if you tacked the last five minutes of this film onto the last five minutes of that film, you'd literally have lost nothing, narratively. It's just two hours of saying nothing interesting, ponderously.

I absolutely love Dawn, so I have to admit to being very disappointed. That's such an interesting, subtle and layered film by blockbuster standards, yet beyond the (slightly muddled) anti-military message, there's nothing that interesting or insightful in this film.

Kelvin

I forgot to mention one of my biggest problems with the film: Kurtz's awful motivation. By which I don't mean the specific, personal one they give him in the script, but the lack of any proper, wider reason for why he, or anyone, gives two shits about these apes and their forest, miles from anyone. This bullshit about "nature punishing humans" simply isn't interesting or meaningful in the way that the very human motivations of characters were in the first two films.

It's such a specific problem: the universe is punishing humans for (accidentally) creating smart apes? Who the fuck cares?

marquis_de_sad

Yeah I agree with all of that (except the stuff about the other films, as I haven't seen them).