Old Doctor Who - Part 3

[Gurke and Hare]

I'd love a really meaty nasty part

I bet you would you dirty old bollocks.

[Replies From View]

Philip Morris raises our hopes once again:

http://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2020/04/04/at-least-six-missing-episodes-of-doctor-who-owned-by-private-collectors/

[Thomas]

Have any of the post-2005 episodes gone missing yet?

[Malcy]

I've always thought that there must be some that people are holding on to for themselves. It's the same in music. People get some sort of joy on knowing that they have them. Probably because they have something no one else has. It's a shame. Especially if these people are loners and when they die their stuff gets chucked in a skip!

[Malcy]

Have any of the post-2005 episodes gone missing yet?

I'm sure someone mocked up some new era stuff as telesnaps once. Vaguely remember seeing it.

[Ambient Sheep]

Especially if these people are loners and when they die their stuff gets chucked in a skip!

Or thrown out by ignorant relatives before those that know what's going on can salvage them... don't even have to be loners.

(My late mum and dad's stuff, my older brother and mainly his wife, me.  Bitter?  Not half as much as I should be, to be fair.  Luckily no Doctor Who artefacts were involved.)

[Replies From View]

I've always thought that there must be some that people are holding on to for themselves. It's the same in music. People get some sort of joy on knowing that they have them. Probably because they have something no one else has. It's a shame. Especially if these people are loners and when they die their stuff gets chucked in a skip!

I can imagine they're out there but you think there'd still be a thrill for them having the only existing physical film prints after they've been copied and released on DVD?  It's such a selfish outlook that I can't wrap my head around it.

The film is surely degrading over time, so the longer they leave it the worse any copies will be.  They will be restored expertly of course, but that's not the point.

[Malcy]

I can imagine they're out there but you think there'd still be a thrill for them having the only existing physical film prints after they've been copied and released on DVD?  It's such a selfish outlook that I can't wrap my head around it.

The film is surely degrading over time, so the longer they leave it the worse any copies will be.  They will be restored expertly of course, but that's not the point.

Yeah it's really odd. There's a very similar thing going on with all the unreleased stuff from Death Row Records. Except with that there is a lot of gloating about who has what and snippets released to prove what they have etc.

It is selfish but it probably gives them a sense of power which they love. Eithar that or they're just pricks.

[Malcy]

Or thrown out by ignorant relatives before those that know what's going on can salvage them... don't even have to be loners.

(My late mum and dad's stuff, my older brother and mainly his wife, me.  Bitter?  Not half as much as I should be, to be fair.  Luckily no Doctor Who artefacts were involved.)

True. Ah that's sad to hear. No matter what they had it should all still be gone through carefully before being dismissed as rubbish and thrown away. One person's treasured items should always become someone else's no matter how irrelevant.

[Thomas]

Last week I rewatched Remembrance of Daleks. As I mentioned in the new Who thread, it's a rare good story late in classic Who's terminal stage, but the Daleks are truly wobbly and the whole serial suffers the cheap look (and synthy soundtrack) of the '80s.

However, I'm now watching (or rewatching, I've a feeling I've seen it before) 1968's The Invasion, and it looks fantastic. The soundtrack is excellent, a great take on spy films of the era. Many of the black-and-white serials actually look really good. The budgetary restrictions are sometimes absorbed into the eerie simplicity gifted by black-and-white film (the first wave of Daleks and Cybermen, for example, still look better than the '80s lot).

I sense that Doctor Who was genuinely quite cool, camp, and quirky in the '60s and '70s - alongside other iconic classics like The Avengers - before becoming rapidly cheesy and garish under JNT's direction, the latter earning it the 'anorak' reputation that would stick for years.

[Replies From View]

I sense that Doctor Who was genuinely quite cool, camp, and quirky in the '60s and '70s - alongside other iconic classics like The Avengers - before becoming rapidly cheesy and garish under JNT's direction, the latter earning it the 'anorak' reputation that would stick for years.

I think you're right, but I don't think that JNT's direction is personally responsible for the 'anorak' reputation it developed.  I think it's more the consequence of the show continuing to exist as its young audience grew into teenagers alongside it, and who then felt they knew all about it and could criticise anything new that it did.  Their obsessive nature possibly has more to do with Doctor Who's tendency to attract people who are on the autistic spectrum (I include myself in that bracket) than anything Doctor Who was actually doing at the time.

[mjwilson]

I think you're right, but I don't think that JNT's direction is personally responsible for the 'anorak' reputation it developed.  I think it's more the consequence of the show continuing to exist as its young audience grew into teenagers alongside it, and who then felt they knew all about it and could criticise anything new that it did.  Their obsessive nature possibly has more to do with Doctor Who's tendency to attract people who are on the autistic spectrum (I include myself in that bracket) than anything Doctor Who was actually doing at the time.

I dunno though, there's a lot of continuity porn under JNT. I mean it's not Big Finish levels but I think it goes into the 'anorak' stuff.

[Thomas]

I dunno though, there's a lot of continuity porn under JNT. I mean it's not Big Finish levels but I think it goes into the 'anorak' stuff.

From my reading, it seems that the continuity depths of the '80s were a consequence of a) JNT demanding the return of old villains to boost the ratings, and b) the writers trying hard to make these returning villains fit reasonably into the series. Along with the overarching plan to make the Doctor a bit more mysterious. Don't ask me anything about the Trial of a Time Lord, though. I don't think I'll ever get around to that.

These days it's a bit simpler. The Daleks and Cybermen just nip in and out without too much focus on where they are in their various timelines. RTD gave the Daleks a long-running story, but that wound up with a coda in Victory of the Daleks. Since then they're ad hoc.

[purlieu]

I dunno, there's definitely some fanwank in the '80s. Attack of the Cybermen - although I enjoy it more than most - is bogged down with Foreman's junk yard, the chameleon circuit, Lytton and his henchmen, and the entire plot attempting to fit rather uncomfortably into the Cybermen's history. There's no reason to do that when you could do a very similar story with only one, or even none, of the back referencing. The random, and totally pointless, Third Doctor reveal in Timelash is another example of tediousness.

[Replies From View]

From my reading, it seems that the continuity depths of the '80s were a consequence of a) JNT demanding the return of old villains to boost the ratings, and b) the writers trying hard to make these returning villains fit reasonably into the series. Along with the overarching plan to make the Doctor a bit more mysterious. Don't ask me anything about the Trial of a Time Lord, though. I don't think I'll ever get around to that.

These days it's a bit simpler. The Daleks and Cybermen just nip in and out without too much focus on where they are in their various timelines. RTD gave the Daleks a long-running story, but that wound up with a coda in Victory of the Daleks. Since then they're ad hoc.

My sense is that there wasn't really a push to make the Doctor more mysterious until Cartmel became involved.

Under Saward the show definitely became bogged down with fan service and back-referencing, I think - especially during Colin Baker's time - but wasn't this with Ian Levine poking his nose in?  How did his involvement happen?

[purlieu]

My understanding is that, as a known super-fan, he was asked to help out with 'continuity'. Which is always a terrible idea: either have a proper canon, or just let the writers do what they want. Nerdy fans obsessed with continuity rarely make interesting fiction, as anyone who's read a Craig Hinton novel can verify.

[Replies From View]

I remember some stories around the same time being impenetrable even though they weren't using established continuity - they were dropping in references to stuff that had never happened in the show's past, which had pretty much the same effect (alienating).

[A Hat Like That]

I sense that Doctor Who was genuinely quite cool, camp, and quirky in the '60s and '70s - alongside other iconic classics like The Avengers - before becoming rapidly cheesy and garish under JNT's direction, the latter earning it the 'anorak' reputation that would stick for years.

Watching T. Baker's run through, there is a notable drop in, well, how good the episodes look in Season 15 (1977-78). The next season is OK, maybe a bit of an improvement but then it drops again, excepting City of Death in Season 17.

For the most part, Davison's stories look alright, but there's again a noticeable drop in quality in the mid-80s. While there's the odd clanger of a Davison story (Warriors of the Deep), almost every single one of Baker's stories looks cheap.

McCoy's first season is ropey, sure, but IMO there's a growing sense of better quality as that season goes on.

I have no conclusion to this post.

[Norton Canes]

Don't forget seasons 15-17 were hit by slashed budgets and spiralling inflation, so the money was just not there to make them look decent. Season 16 (the Key To Time season) gets round the problem in a couple of its stories by reusing sets in The Ribos Operation (from Anna Karenina) and some nice location work in The Androids Of Tara (and the marshes in Power Of Kroll, I guess) but the final stories in all three of these seasons (counting Horns Of Nimon rather than Shada) look about as threadbare as the show has ever done.

JN-T clearly pulls some strings for season 18 and at the time it seemed to look more expensive but to be honest, time hasn't been kind to much of the studio work (Warriors Gate excepted). Lush locations once again save the day, this time in Full Circle.

The Davison seasons are generally OK, yeah, but along with the beige Doctor (look I liked him!) we got a lot of beige, mostly overlit sets too. Colin's first season actually looks the best the show has in years, I think. The lights are turned down in Vengeance On Varos, much the film work in Mark Of The Rani looks positively cinematic, Spain is scenic in the otherwise interminable The Two Doctors and again, resourceful re-use of sets from other productions make Revelation Of The Daleks look pleasingly quirky.

McCoy's era looks... vibrant.

[purlieu]

It's quite sad that all four stories in McCoy's first season have so much potential, but have that post-Newsround 'sci-fi drama' CBBC production value to them.

[weekender]

Philip Morris raises our hopes once again:

http://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2020/04/04/at-least-six-missing-episodes-of-doctor-who-owned-by-private-collectors/

Video link to the exact comment for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGEFROSQeIM&t=11695s

JennaUK on GallifreyBase is allegedly claiming that Marco Polo 1-7 and Wheel in Space 4 & 5 are now back in the UK.  Yawn.

[Alberon]

I'm quite prepared to believe there are half a dozen missing episodes in collectors hands, but the other rumour? It's just the same old bullshit runaround that's been going on for nearly seven years.

Who is JennaUK anyway?

[mjwilson]

Poster on GallifreyBase who has been saying for a while that 2 eps of Wheel in Space are inprivate hands and that there's a dispute about how/whether they should be returned to the BBC. (I've only seen mention of WiS not Marco Polo in this context.) I think she claims to work at a law firm which has been involved in some of the discussions. (That's all from memory so apologies for any inaccuracies.)

[Pranet]

Although the omni rumour was always balls, I do miss the days when it seemed likely at any moment that some more episodes had been found. I remember being a bit excited every time this thread (or one of its predecessors) was updated.

For a while at least it seemed very likely Marco Polo had been found.

[mjwilson]

A complete Marco Polo always seemed to good to be true, but after Enemy/Web I did think we would see a few more returns. Ah well.

[Replies From View]

What is the appeal for people raising our hopes with "finds" they know are lies?

[Alberon]

I think it's just the attention. It keeps on happening and fans keep falling for it. Someone pops up and promises some news soon, but it never comes.

When episodes are really returned the BBC likes to keep a lid on the news until its ready to release it. A return will never be announced on the forums.

[Replies From View]

something wrong with them

[Deanjam]

Pip Baker of Pip and Jane Baker fame has died. Not Corona related it appears. Can't say I was a fan of their Dr Who stuff, but they did write Night of the Big Heat, which is one of my favourite films.

[purlieu]

I've never been able to work out how they wrote that film and then a run of half-arsed workmanlike pap for the rest of their careers.

I hope she's flown off to heaven on the back of a megabyte modem.