Japanese Doll Culture (possibly NWS)

[9]

I've been mooching around various sites recently trying to get insight into this strange facet of Japenese culture which seems to have no real equivalent in this country. Basically, there's a lot of art which utilises 'doll forms' or images of very young girls, but in extremely suggestive adult contexts.  Sometimes these girls have injuries or are involved in S&M activities. Example:



What do you think the psychology behind such images is? Is it just a way of sublimating a desire for young girls or are the reasons more aesthetic? Does the physical difference between east and west play a part as well? The artist  Trevor Brown (British Artist now working in Japan) claims his interest in such ideas starts and stops with his art, that people who claim otherwise are being narrow minded. People may recognise his stuff from the sleeves of certain Venetian Snares/Whitehouse records. I think his work has a great visual impact but some of the subject matter is disturbing at best and would be greatly upsetting to many people:



Is it "ok" for art to be so openly fetishistic, or does this cross the line and stop being art at all? Japan has a huge market in S&M, bondage and so-called 'Gothic Lolita Culture'.  Your average Japanese Goth seems to put in a bit more effort than its British counterpart:



The Japanese seem to place a lot more importance on 'cuteness'  than any other i can think of.  Maybe if young women are choosing to dress up like this then Japanese art is naturally going to reflect it? Maybe they have a fascination with subverting beauty and innocence because of the rigorously formal nature of their culture and work ethic. Maybe art like this is a natural product of that society? Anyway, I don't really have a point, I just thought it was an interesting phenomenon. What do you think?

[splattermac]

what do I think? I think it's just plain wrong!! :)

not really, I couldn't give a monkeys what the goths are up to these days.

As a trawler and dredger I found this website and I often pop back to see what's Big in Japan or just doing the viral circuit http://www.octopusdropkick.net/

In fact if you scroll down you'll see Cosplay (Costume play) which fits in with your thread, now that is odd but variety is the spice 'n'all

[Bernard]

Well how do you feel, Author? Cos you must have an opinion (even if you don't want to say it) or you wouldn't have started this.

I think in a nutshell these people enjoying sexualising something innocent (young children usually females) and are therefore perves who should be treated as such.

[Deadman97]

Maybe they have a fascination with subverting beauty and innocence because of the rigorously formal nature of their culture and work ethic.

I think that's as close as any gaijin is going to get to understanding it. I recommend you pick up a book called "Fruits" (foreword by Shoich Aoki); it's a collection of pictures of Japanese youth in some truly mental street fashion, taken from the magazine of the same name. It fascinates the hell out of me, in no small part because I know I'm NEVER going to "get it".

[9]

Well how do you feel, Author? Cos you must have an opinion (even if you don't want to say it) or you wouldn't have started this.

I don't pretend to know anything about Japanese culture so I don't want to cast any sweeping judgements. I think Trevor Brown has done some good work, and he's also done some shit. I think the juxtoposition of sexuality and innocence is a valid area for art to explore, and many great artists have done so. Unfortunately i don't think a great many of these 'Lolita Artists'  are great artists.

[fanny splendid]

Lovely links for us unashamed perverts, there.

Thanks Splattermac, It had that dancing Transformer video for download, too.

[Banana Woofwoof]

It's just pervy.  And little goth dolls are as irritating as the real life goth dolls who wear Emily Strange t-shirts and love Nemi.

And cuteness can go fuck itself an' all.

[Ambient Sheep]

I think in a nutshell these people enjoying sexualising something innocent (young children usually females) and are therefore perves who should be treated as such.

Burn them in a giant wicker phallus?

[Bernard]

Yes. They really are shits!

[Banana Woofwoof]

I think in a nutshell these people enjoying sexualising something innocent (young children usually females) and are therefore perves who should be treated as such.

Burn them in a giant wicker phallus?

I think that young girls don't need to be sexualised, by nature they are already sexual and people will find them attractive.  The wrong thing is physically acting on it because it's against someone's conscious will.

(also remember that Japan, China, Taiwan etc have quite a healthy child prostitution market...)

[fanny splendid]

It's just pervy.  And little goth dolls are as irritating as the real life goth dolls who wear Emily Strange t-shirts and love Nemi.

And cuteness can go fuck itself an' all.

Hah!

Despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, Goth girls don't have to be fat, and wobble with each other in the corner of dark clubs, exchanging fingerless lace gloves...

;-)

[Banana Woofwoof]

It's just pervy.  And little goth dolls are as irritating as the real life goth dolls who wear Emily Strange t-shirts and love Nemi.

And cuteness can go fuck itself an' all.

Hah!

Despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, Goth girls don't have to be fat, and wobble with each other in the corner of dark clubs, exchanging fingerless lace gloves...

;-)

Exchanging razorblades and vodka, dear.  Get it right!

The foxy goth contingent lurks in the cybersect.  They even have colours in their clothes.*



*Before anyone accuses me of being a goth, you are within your rights, but I am seriously notagothok.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

And cuteness can go fuck itself an' all.

You want to fuck this?


You're SICK!

[splattermac]

I remember @ssmaster posting some photos of Japanese dolls, school girls I think they were, having a crap! Presumably for lolita scat fetishists.

I downloaded a film called Love & Pop* which is supposed to be about compensation dating but I've not felt like watching it because of the subject matter. It did take me ages to get around to watching a film called Visitor Q if you know it for similar reasons, taboo shockers often make me chicken out. As it happens I howled with laughter at the shocks in Visitor Q. anyhoo...

*[state of the art digital filmmaking bonanza overflowing with bold visuals. Shot with multiple Sony Handycams, LOVE & POP is a primer in vanguard digital filmmaking technique] first came to my attention on Jonathan Ross's Japanese program (whatever that was called)

[Banana Woofwoof]

And cuteness can go fuck itself an' all.

You want to fuck this?


You're SICK!

That isn't cute, that's horrifying.  I'm just bitter because despite being 4ft 9" I've never  even got a whiff of cuteness.

And back to the thread!

[Bernard]

I think that young girls don't need to be sexualised, by nature they are already sexual and people will find them attractive.  The wrong thing is physically acting on it because it's against someone's conscious will.

(also remember that Japan, China, Taiwan etc have quite a healthy child prostitution market...)

And what's healthy about that market exactly?

[Banana Woofwoof]

I think that young girls don't need to be sexualised, by nature they are already sexual and people will find them attractive.  The wrong thing is physically acting on it because it's against someone's conscious will.

(also remember that Japan, China, Taiwan etc have quite a healthy child prostitution market...)

And what's healthy about that market exactly?

I meant quite widespread, not "healthy" as in "Wow! Fantastic!"

[fanny splendid]

The foxy goth contingent lurks in the cybersect.  They even have colours in their clothes.

Ah, the old Cybergoths! I thought they were long dead; I guess it really has been a long time. Can you still get those stripy tights? I used to like those.

[Ambient Sheep]

I think that young girls don't need to be sexualised,...

I quite agree.

...by nature they are already sexual and people will find them attractive.

Do you realise - and I'm being quite serious here - that there is a fairly large contingent of Paulsgrove-type people out there who would actually damn you as one of "those perves" merely for saying that?

It was the attitudes of those sort of people that I was having a dig at when I was taking the pee out of Bernard's post (which I'm glad he's apparently taken in good spirit).

The wrong thing is physically acting on it because it's against someone's conscious will.

Absolutely.  No argument from me there.

(also remember that Japan, China, Taiwan etc have quite a healthy child prostitution market...)

I wasn't forgetting - and I do agree that the Japanese's culture towards young teenage girls is quite worrying, e.g. all that stuff with vending machines selling used schoolgirl knickers: I think I'm pretty broadminded but that makes even me feel a bit ill.

[Rubbish Monkey]

Ah, the old Cybergoths! I thought they were long dead; I guess it really has been a long time. Can you still get those stripy tights? I used to like those.

I bet you looked lovely in them.

[Ambient Sheep]

That isn't cute, that's horrifying.  I'm just bitter because despite being 4ft 9" I've never  even got a whiff of cuteness.

And back to the thread!

You really *are* deluded!

And back to the thread!

[glitch]

It's just pervy.  And little goth dolls are as irritating as the real life goth dolls who wear Emily Strange t-shirts and love Nemi.

Emily Strange: For girls too young to remember Wednesday.

And in my day, goths didn't buy off-the-shelf "scary dolls", they mutilated a Barbie and thought they were the first person to ever do so. Pah, kids of today, etc.

Before anyone accuses me of being a goth, you are within your rights, but I am seriously notagothok.

Eldritch? ;)

The foxy goth contingent lurks in the cybersect.  They even have colours in their clothes.

Ah, the old Cybergoths! I thought they were long dead; I guess it really has been a long time. Can you still get those stripy tights? I used to like those.

No, they can still be found glowing like a Chernobyl fireman, chewing their own faces off and generally being muppets. And listening to nothing but VNV and Apop.

Scarily, I used to run a cybergoth forum (and it still exists...)

Shit, have I just outed myself?

[petercussing]

Surely from an artist point of view, the cuteness provide a massive contrast to harsher imagery?

However, The Jappanese men do have a massive thing for Schoolgirl, which i was lead to believe was created partly from their porn not being allowed to show pubes, but i don't think that it applies as such to the pieces.

It does apply to Sailor Moon though.

And they used to sell magic mushrooms in their supermarkets, fact fans.  

They make the greatest computer games in the world though, and Mario alone cancels out any wrong doing. Ever.

Obviously.

Mmm, i didn't really think this post out too much. Mmm, sweet daddy random.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

they used to sell magic mushrooms in their supermarkets, fact fans.  

They make the greatest computer games in the world though, and Mario alone cancels out any wrong doing. Ever.

Have to correct you about the games point there. Goldeneye and Grand Theft Auto are British made.
Do you think that the availability of 'shrooms might be linked to the development of Mario at all?

[splattermac]

just while I'm waiting for my pasta to cook and the horrible vision fanny's description gave me,



I'll have a Vodka and coke please luv

[shit as fuck]

Years ago a myself and a housemate were invading the privacy and betraying the trust of someone we lived with by looking through his computer for this bizzare email that he was rumoured to have sent to this girl we knew (whoIoncegotoffwithasajoke! Shuttup!).

We found crap-loads of something that I later learned was called 'Hentai'.  Lots of animated japanese girls in various states of undress.  Some of them were clearly supposed to be quite young, perhaps even underage.  He even had these weird little games where you had to give the right response to various prompts from an onscreen girl to get her to disrobe.

I was quite scared by all this until I realised that the whole thing, as this thread shows, is quite commonplace in Japan.  The guy is a big fan of all things Japanese, so we concluded he must have been 'familiarising' himself with their pornography as well as cinema, music, theatre etc.

Is 'this sort of thing' socially acceptable in Japan?  Does it count as paedophilia?  Should I burn him?

[petercussing]

Have to correct you about the games point there. Goldeneye and Grand Theft Auto are British made.

Geez, though, despite the fact that GTA: SA is the bestest game ever and that Goldeneye was super good, i could probably come up a vast list of games that are similarly as good is a few seconds which were made by Nips.

I'll amend my statement to: The Japanese make the greatest volume of fantastic and innovative games in the world, which are often of a standard that massively exceeds U.S. and European developers, and have done for some time now. I'd personally place Britain, France and Denmark as the next best developers, and then the U.S. majority for the Japanese style clones that they make, desparately trying to keep up or at least match the output of their competitors. I mean, Oddworld!?! FIFA !?! Pffffffffffffft!!!

Do you think that the availability of 'shrooms might be linked to the development of Mario at all?

The main gaming experience that i've had with mushrooms is that they make you rubbish at games, such as making your Streetfighter charecter just jump up and down on the spot until the time has run out (eh, Spaceghost, eh? You know what i mean).

I don't believe it had any effect on Myamoto as he is a 2000 year old Mecha that was sent to Earth to confuse and entertain the population with flashing images whilst the rest of his cohorts steal our air.

Now, what about dutty Jap dolls...............................................................

[peet]

Maybe they have a fascination with subverting beauty and innocence because of the rigorously formal nature of their culture and work ethic.

I think that's as close as any gaijin is going to get to understanding it. I recommend you pick up a book called "Fruits" (foreword by Shoich Aoki); it's a collection of pictures of Japanese youth in some truly mental street fashion, taken from the magazine of the same name. It fascinates the hell out of me, in no small part because I know I'm NEVER going to "get it".

I've got a book called 'Cruising Kingdom' by Kyoichi Tsuzuki, it's basically loads of photos of the Japanese phenomenon of Truck Art. I suppose it's a similar mindset to that of a British yoof adding a bodykit and alloys to his Vauxhall Nova, but it's been taken to the nth degree - the level of obssession lavished on being part of the particular 'scene' is quite bizarre,  you just can't imagine it going quite as far in any other country. The "I don't get it" factor is just off the scale as with so many aspects of Japanese culture - social conventions, attitudes to sex and porn, dress, work ethic, obsession with technology/cuteness etc... still absolutely fascinating though. Admittedly the main experience of Japan I have is stuff i've seen on telly, like the recent Adam & Joe/Graham Norton things... anyway.
Here's a few scans I did:    1   2   3

edit: here's a sackload more Truck Art stuff.
And they do have something similar-ish in a few other countries, like Pakistan - nowhere near as nuts though.

[9]

wow, thanks for those Peet. Those are insane! That gear stick in the last set looks like its been used for more than changing gears! *Sid James laugh*

[Smackhead Kangaroo]

Doll art/Gothic lolita not even remotely the same topics. If not for the fact one is merely called lolita then there'd be no immediate connection at all.

What's there to get? Fandom can go to some crazy lengths. So what.

Anything mentioned above I presume can be explained by

1) Don't the japanese have an age of consent of 12? hence schoolgirl fetish being not as taboo. And also pretty obvious that compensation dating would occur.

2)Japanese (and oriental) issues with individuality.

Are we finished sayinghow whacky and different they are yet?

As a minor point, I don't think doll art is unique to or even originates from Japan at all. They're just very good at super deformed stuff.