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Synth Grooveboxes (Roland, Korg etc.)

Started by momatt, January 11, 2017, 01:44:21 PM

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momatt

A thread about synth grooveboxes, so I don't ruin the other thread about modular synths.
Which ones do you like, which are shit?  Any nice videos to link to?


Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 12:33:15 PM
I've played around with both and this isn't true. The TB3 is more versatile (soundwise) than the original TB-303 whereas the TB-03 is a faithful copy.

Oh ok, yes that does sounds right.  The TB3 has distortion and other effects doesn't it.  I believe they used the same analogue circuit modelling techniques though.

I'm a big fan of the old Korg grooveboxes, ER-1 and EA-1.  Incredibly versatile and really easy to use.  Great for jamming.

When I have the cash I'm considering some sort of analogue acid box.  Does anyone have experience with one of these?
Cheeky design, but they're meant to sound quite authentic.  They also have a few cool new features, like random pattern creation and MIDI.



A new drum machine I'm interested in is the Arturia DrumBrute.  Looks like a classic analogue, with some new bits chucked in.  Cheap too.
http://www.soundonsound.com/news/arturia-unveil-drumbrute

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 11, 2017, 01:44:21 PM
A new drum machine I'm interested in is the Arturia DrumBrute.  Looks like a classic analogue, with some new bits chucked in.  Cheap too.
http://www.soundonsound.com/news/arturia-unveil-drumbrute

My collector friend got one of those.

The Drumbrute is a bit of an 808/909 clone, although you can tweak sounds out of it that are unlike either, which is a big bonus, but you can see where they were coming from. Was impressed that they followed suit from the original 808/909 to give you separate outputs for every sound, which the equivalent modern Roland models don't. Less impressed that these separate outs are all minijacks.

What's interesting/disappointing on both the Drumbrute and TR8 (can't say whether its true with the TR9 as I've yet to try it) is the lack of programming beyond setting up a beat of 1 or 2 bars length, not even to do what you can on a TR-808 and cycle an alternate bar every 4, 8 or 16 bars (you can programme a whole song on an 808, too, with a beginning middle and end).

NoSleep

#2
Oh yeah, both the TR8 and Drumbrute have "scatter" functions which are fine and dandy, except you have little access to programming the function to behave as you wish.

This is the problem with grooveboxes; they are following behind trends in music, so that they are offering easy ways to do what others had previously used their ingenuity and to achieve. The great thing about the original TR-808, TR-909 and the TB-303 is that they were blank slates in this respect and became classics by what they could do, not by what tricks they offered to imitate for you.

The first Roland groovebox the MC-303 is a prime example of following behind trends. First of all, the name suggests it may have TB-303 capabilities, aside from incorporating 12 drum kits and 400-500 sounds. But that was the first thing I tried to do with one and it can't be made to sound like a TB-303. Instead it's full of late 80's and early 90's cliche rave, hip hop and drum'n'bass sounds that were already going out of date by the time of its release. Worst of all, they PACKED it with preset patterns and grooves that all sound like pale imitations of various genres and there's only a tiny bit of user memory to create beats and tunes of your own. I've not tried to programme a complex arrangement into one but have read accounts by others of running out of memory before being able to enter a single complete song. It's got some interesting functions, though, like the arpeggiator and the grooves, which might make it usable for the odd trick in a song. What a pain to programme though (slightly easier if connected to a decent keyboard).

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
My collector friend got one of those.

The Drumbrute is a bit of an 808/909 clone, although you can tweak sounds out of it that are unlike either, which is a big bonus, but you can see where they were coming from. Was impressed that they followed suit from the original 808/909 to give you separate outputs for every sound, which the equivalent modern Roland models don't. Less impressed that these separate outs are all minijacks.

What's interesting/disappointing on both the Drumbrute and TR8 (can't say whether its true with the TR9 as I've yet to try it) is the lack of programming beyond setting up a beat of 1 or 2 bars length, not even to do what you can on a TR-808 and cycle an alternate bar every 4, 8 or 16 bars (you can programme a whole song on an 808, too, with a beginning middle and end).

Great, I hoped (and gathered from videos) that it would sound in the area of a more tweakable 808-909.

I didn't realise that the sequencing was so limited though.  A bit rubbish.  Most sites say it's a 64-step sequencer, but is that just for one bar?
One of the many reasons I love the Korg electribes is that they can sequence 1-4 bar loops, whereas most others only do 1 bar.  Which is boring.

I might just keep using the Electribe for sequencing and connect it to something like this lovely Vermona DRM1.  Looking at it makes me salivate.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
Less impressed that these separate outs are all minijacks.
Why are these bad, other than being small and fiddly?  Do they sound different?

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 02:23:11 PMyou can programme a whole song on an 808, too, with a beginning middle and end
I didn't know this!  So they've actually gone back in this area.


Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 02:39:24 PM
Oh yeah, both the TR8 and Drumbrute have "scatter" functions which are fine and dandy, except you have little access to programming the function to behave as you wish.
This is the problem with grooveboxes; they are following behind trends in music, so that they are offering easy ways to do what others had previously used their ingenuity and to achieve.

Yes, this is true of most grooveboxes and why they are often regarded as toys.  I don't mind crappy presets, as long as there's still loads of flexibility and room to store your own stuff.
The TR-8 only having 16 slots for pattern saving is mental.

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 11, 2017, 03:03:18 PM
Great, I hoped (and gathered from videos) that it would sound in the area of a more tweakable 808-909.

I didn't realise that the sequencing was so limited though.  A bit rubbish.  Most sites say it's a 64-step sequencer, but is that just for one bar?
One of the many reasons I love the Korg electribes is that they can sequence 1-4 bar loops, whereas most others only do 1 bar.  Which is boring.

I might just keep using the Electribe for sequencing and connect it to something like this lovely Vermona DRM1.  Looking at it makes me salivate.

I think 64 step will allow you to programme 2-4 bars. I can't remember offhand how this works now.

Talking of that issue, the TR8 features the classic time scales as featured on the original 808. Unfortunately, if you fancy programming some fancy trap-style 32-step hihat patterns in your beat, then it halves the size of the already low count of two bars down to one bar for a pattern.

That is one function they upgraded on the MC-303, so that you could incorporate 32, 24, 16 & 12-step all into the same pattern, no problem. That would have been a useful function to have kept for the TR8.

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 11, 2017, 03:10:30 PM
Why are these bad, other than being small and fiddly?  Do they sound different?

No, but in an existing studio environment it meant buying a load of new convertor leads to access the normal-sized jack patchbay.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 03:16:27 PM
I think 64 step will allow you to programme 2-4 bars. I can't remember offhand how this works now.
Ok, that's not too bad then.  Looks like I need a hands-on look at it to see.

Weird how limited they made the TR-8 in that respect.  Their excuse is probably down to it being mainly aimed at live-jamming techno, where complex patterns aren't usually needed.  But them putting in a bit more memory/options shouldn't be too tricky.

One of the few drum machines that does time signatures other than 4/4 or 3/4 beats is the MFB Tanzbär.  You can alter the step-length of each part individually for poly-rhythmns.  Great machine (best out there I think), but a little too pricey for me.
Have you used one NoSleep?

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 03:18:42 PM
No, but in an existing studio environment it meant buying a load of new convertor leads to access the normal-sized jack patchbay.
Right, of course.  Strange choice on their part then.

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 11, 2017, 03:45:16 PM
Weird how limited they made the TR-8 in that respect.  Their excuse is probably down to it being mainly aimed at live-jamming techno, where complex patterns aren't usually needed.  But them putting in a bit more memory/options shouldn't be too tricky.

One of the few drum machines that does time signatures other than 4/4 or 3/4 beats is the MFB Tanzbär.  You can alter the step-length of each part individually for poly-rhythmns.  Great machine (best out there I think), but a little too pricey for me.
Have you used one NoSleep?

No I haven't (there's probably one waiting for me to look at next time I go visit the collector).

Regards time signatures, the TR8 at least has inherited the 808's ability to loop through any number of the 16 steps on its face (and then the alternate pattern mirrors this).

The 808, once again, had[nb]Or has, in the case of my collector friend[/nb] better ability to program time signatures.

NoSleep

Talking about my mate's 808; I've used it a bit recently and it shits over the TR8. I love the thing and wish I'd bought the one I saw for sale in Brixton Exchange for £300 many years ago (they're selling for closer £3000 these days).

You can't beat the smoothness or funkiness of the sound of the original. It can't be emulated with samples because it's an analog synth essentially. When two sounds overlap, say you program two kick drums to trigger close together, it doesn't simply sound like the sound retriggering as it would with samples. And being able to tune and adjust the sounds as you program your beat is something samples aren't going to allow you to do fluidly. Actually, that is the big selling point of the TR8 as you can tweak the sounds similarly.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 03:53:32 PM
The 808, once again, had[nb]Or has, in the case of my collector friend[/nb] better ability to program time signatures.
It's ridiculous how advanced that original TR-808 was.

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
Talking about my mate's 808; I've used it a bit recently and it shits over the TR8. I love the thing and wish I'd bought the one I saw for sale in Brixton Exchange for £300 many years ago (they're selling for closer £3000 these days).
You can't beat the smoothness or funkiness of the sound of the original. It can't be emulated with samples because it's an analog synth essentially. When two sounds overlap, say you program two kick drums to trigger close together, it doesn't simply sound like the sound retriggering as it would with samples.
Yes I've heard this.  Roland are such twats for not simply re-making the TR-808.  It's what every synth-geek wanted.  So many other companies have proved that the market for proper analogue is there.

I'd get a clone (Acidlab Miami), but they're around £1000!  Only has a 16-step sequencer too, FFS.

£300 probably seemed like a lot at the time?!

NoSleep


Got a bit of a set up that I plan to build live sets with. Get it all set up like a pedal board that can be chucked in the back of a car.

Electribe 2
MPC 500/Sampetrak 224 (got both, but the Zoom seems more user-friendly)
Volca Keys (for drones/texture)
Kaossilator (also for drones)
Alesis mixer
Novation X Station

For all that cash, I probably should have just bought a used macbook really.

I'd like to be in a situation where I know the gear well enough to be able to run live sets completely on the hoof. The electribe does seem like quite a good midi controller if I spent the time learning it. Quite like how you can avoid the 'preset problem' with the Electribe, with each new bank containing a simple drum kit and 8 saw waves.

Any tips on workflow with this stuff gratefully appreciated.

NoSleep

That Volca keys looks like it could be a TB-303 clone or is that deceptive?

I'm not exactly sure of the capabilities of everything you have there, but I can see possibilities of syncing stuff up in different ways. Have you tried linking it all up as yet? Does the Kaoscillator allow for external signals to be filtered, etc, like the Kaos pad? Does the Novation have sequencing capabilities like their bass station (another 303 clone)?

All these grooveboxes are really designed for live use more than anything else, but, as we've been talking about, they seem to think all musical ideas should only be a couple of bars looping perpetually with some button-tweaking for interest. They seem to have more specifically been designed to function alongside a DJ set-up, between playing records. Many of the Roland grooveboxes have functions similar to turntables for syncing with other music, for example.

I have had lots of them talking to each other in midi already, but not the full set up, as I don't have enough cables! I was going to use the xstation as a live keyboard/midi controller into the electribe, use the electribe as a master sending time code into the volca, and sampler. The sampler would also hopefully be triggered by the electribe once I work out how to do that, meaning I could mute/reprogramme it at will. The kaossilator has zero midi capabilities, but would be useful in layering drones which do not necessarily have to be in strict time. I was thinking of running that through some guitar pedals too.

The volca is essentially a saw wave keyboard with a filter, lfo and delay. This is a good indication of the sort of noise coming out of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9BMtPVj3a8

NoSleep

The Volca is essentially an expanded (in range of sound at least) TB-303. I think you've found your bass player.

Don't both the MPC and the Sampletrak have built-in sequencing capabilities? You shouldn't need to control them via anything else if you don't want to.

Regarding the Kaoscillator I was asking if you can pass external audio signals through it? Might be quite nice to morph some drums (or whatever) coming out of another unit.

popcorn

Quote from: momatt on January 11, 2017, 04:28:21 PM
Yes I've heard this.  Roland are such twats for not simply re-making the TR-808.  It's what every synth-geek wanted.  So many other companies have proved that the market for proper analogue is there.

According to the Roland prez in the documentary 808, the design for the 808 actually depended on some faulty transistors that produced a particular sound. Roland bought them up on the cheap to use in the 808, but by 1983 semiconductor improvements meant you could no longer buy the faulty transistors (one presumes there wasn't a big market for them), and that's why they stopped making them and why the machine is impossible to manufacture now.

That does smell a bit bullshitty to me, but that's the official reason.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 05:45:38 PM
The Volca is essentially an expanded (in range of sound at least) TB-303. I think you've found your bass player.
The Volca Bass might be better though!  This one is designed as a 303 equivalent, but is also it's own thing.

Quote from: NoSleep on January 11, 2017, 05:45:38 PM
Regarding the Kaoscillator I was asking if you can pass external audio signals through it? Might be quite nice to morph some drums (or whatever) coming out of another unit.

Not if it's the Kaossilator 1.  There's another model (Kaoss Pad Mini) which just does effects on other sources.  I've got a 4-channel mixer (Korg KM-402) which effectively has this built in, such fun!
Kaossilators are such fun.  I always take them with me when traveling.

Quote from: popcorn on January 12, 2017, 11:40:42 AM
According to the Roland prez in the documentary 808, the design for the 808 actually depended on some faulty transistors that produced a particular sound.

Might be true, but current clones are bloody close by all accounts.  It depend on how anal you are about such things.  Loads of people argue about how close certain clones are to their originals, especially TB-303s.  But they often forget that each 303 would have a slightly different sound to the next and 30 years aging can also change the sound.

My next purchase is likely to be the Novation Bass Station 2.  Packed full of features, but also good for mackes nice acid squelchiness.

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 12, 2017, 01:49:37 PM
The Volca Bass might be better though!  This one is designed as a 303 equivalent, but is also it's own thing.

Sounds like the Volca Keys has the range to be both a bass and a lead sequencer (which can't be a bad thing). I wish the TB-303 had a little more range (it spans three octaves) as it was fun to include some high notes between the low ones when programming a bass line with it - funky.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 12, 2017, 01:53:41 PM
Sounds like the Volca Keys has the range to be both a bass and a lead sequencer (which can't be a bad thing). I wish the TB-303 had a little more range (it spans three octaves) as it was fun to include some high notes between the low ones when programming a bass line with it - funky.

The Keys also has 3-voice polyphony.  Well, paraphonic really.
So it probably is a little more versatile.

303 is a bit limited, but fine for basslines.  The sonic range of the 303 is crazy considering what it was actually designed for.  Makes you wonder what they were thinking having all that resonance!




NoSleep

It's puzzling why they didn't make it reach a little lower than it does, too. Although sub-bass was not particularly the rage in the early 80's, outside of dub, anyway. It's actually rather good for programming reggae basslines as it goes.

NoSleep

Quote from: momatt on January 12, 2017, 02:49:07 PM




I remember the TV ads for Roland in the UK that featured Oscar. His catchphrase was, "Roland... Enjoy!" Did Oscar ever make any recordings with that gear, I wonder?

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 12, 2017, 02:59:24 PM
It's puzzling why they didn't make it reach a little lower than it does, too. Although sub-bass was not particularly the rage in the early 80's, outside of dub, anyway. It's actually rather good for programming reggae basslines as it goes.
Oh really?  I'll take your word for it as I've never played on one and hearing them actually play a normal bass line is pretty rare.  Newcleus and maybe Imagination used one.

Quote from: NoSleep on January 12, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
I remember the TV ads for Roland in the UK that featured Oscar. His catchphrase was, "Roland... Enjoy!" Did Oscar ever make any recordings with that gear, I wonder?
That is very cool.  Can't find that online unfortunately.

NoSleep

I was going to link to a track where I did the bassline with the TB-303 in a (kind of) reggae bass style, but I can hear I was using the CV/gate out to drive my Roland SH09 synth with the 303, rather than using the sound of the 303 itself. Possibly I'm blending the two sounds, I can't remember; it sounds like I might be.

The beauty of coming out of the 303 to another synth via CV/Gate is that all those lovely slides between notes are retained, as they're not set by the portamento level on the receiving synth but are actually voltage-controlled by the 303.

Here's the track, anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzMSufCLyS4

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 12, 2017, 04:29:20 PM
I was going to link to a track where I did the bassline with the TB-303 in a (kind of) reggae bass style, but I can hear I was using the CV/gate out to drive my Roland SH09 synth with the 303, rather than using the sound of the 303 itself.

Nice.  I don't think I ever would have spotted that, but the pattern timing does sounds a little 303-ish.
So the old CV way of control is more precise than MIDI in some ways.
Good use of that little Herbie sample too!

NoSleep

It's the slides that give the signature 303 sound. If you tried to slide using portamento on many synths it's determined to work at a set speed. What this means, is if you set a portamento speed to sound good between two notes that are close together and then want to play another note that's, say, an octave away, the slide on the jump over the octave will take more time, which doesn't sound so good. If you set the portamento to a suitable speed for the octave slide, then the slide between the two notes close to gether might not even register, being so fast.
With the 303 the slide is set uniformly between each note regardless of the interval between them, so it has the naturalness of, say, a bass player sliding between notes (a standard practice).

momatt

Ah, that makes sense.  I've noticed that the slide on other synths works in the slightly annoying way you described, not meeting the next note.

Though it can be made to sound unlike anything before it, I can also see what Roland were aiming for.  Like the slide, there are a few things in the 303 aiming to make it sound natural.  The filter envelope has a woody sort of sound, a bit like a plucked double bass or fretless.

The nearest I've come to a 303 is messing about with the RD3 Groovebox app, on Android.  It also has 808, 606, 909 drums (among others) and effects.
Nice sound, great fun and I'd highly recommend it.  Brilliant for making acid house on the move of course, but I've also made weird hip hop and dancehall style beats with it too.
Free demo is good, but I paid for the better version.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mikrosonic.RD3&hl=en_GB

NoSleep

The only synth I've come across that has the same slide function incorporated into its portamento is the digital Casio CZ101 (and probably the entire CZ series). This of course lacks the tweakability of the TB-303, as there are no knobs, but makes up for it with a lot of other neat stuff (like 7-stage ADSR).

hummingofevil

Not sure which thread this should be in but here goes.

Im having a huge music reboot and have a few things to add. Was saving up for a MacBook Pro and then got spoiled at Christmas so spent money on a load of extra toys and (mainly) software.

The most fun I'm having is on my phone. Paid £8 for the Troublemaker synth that is a 303 rip-off and a bit more besides. It's great fun. Quite limited in features (that I can work out) but it sounds great and the interface is dead easy to use. In quite moments I've been just syncing it with my iOS Korg Electribe or SeekBeats through Ableton Link and just making easy acid techno tunes. It's almost too easy but it sounds pretty cool. Only problem I've got is I got confused by what is meant by an Audio Unit and thought I could magically play it in Ableton in the Mac but it's not that. It's a plug in but only for DAWs that run in the appliance itself (e.g. GarageBand). Still the simplicity and limited choice means I actually make some tunes rather than playing about with software.

Speaking of which, I've also invested in the Moog Model 15 iOS app (£23). Now a bit of what seems like magic and I've got my midi controller for my computer running this app remotely over a wi-fi connection. You've got to route the audio back into Ableton via soundcard (well at least I think you HAVE to - no idea of there is a way of wirelessly getting audio from phone back in Ableton). Either at it sounds amazing and whilst £23 is not cheap for an app it's a darn sight easier on the wallet than the 10grand original.

Play time.

---

Q. Anyone have any good introductory videos for using Max for Live? I've found a few decent looking ones but they are all through the Max 6 interface device editor and I'm running Max 4L 7 which seems totally different.

momatt

Quote from: NoSleep on January 13, 2017, 12:36:35 PM
The only synth I've come across that has the same slide function incorporated into its portamento is the digital Casio CZ101 (and probably the entire CZ series). This of course lacks the tweakability of the TB-303, as there are no knobs, but makes up for it with a lot of other neat stuff (like 7-stage ADSR).

Yes, I've read about that CZ series, some of the best value for money vintage synths.  Well maybe not so much now that people have caught on.
Even though they look a bit toy-ish they're meant to have good sounds.  I imagine they're a bit like the DX-7?  That's got an incredibly big range of sounds it can make, but an absolute bugger to program.
I used to have a TX-7.  Took for forever to work out how to transfer even pre-made patches onto it.  I sold it after I realised I'd not touched it in years.

Always wanted a Casio MT-400v Keyboard too, as it's got a nice analogue filter on it.

Something like the Volca FM is probably a better and more intuitive way of fiddling about with FM synthesis (for me anyway).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVFohFTClg