Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 06:14:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Started by momatt, January 23, 2017, 05:17:22 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dr Rock

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 11, 2018, 06:32:31 PM
Keep 'em coming, folks.  Keep 'em coming.

I'm done with this thread.  It's not worth the insults and like I said, I don't care enough about Star Wars to put up with this shite.  Have fun.


You're a voice of reason round these parts, don't leave me alone with the people who reckon this piece of shit film was good.

popcorn

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 11, 2018, 06:38:24 PM

You're a voice of reason round these parts, don't leave me alone with the people who reckon this piece of shit film was good.

IT WAS FINE.

Kelvin

Quote from: St_Eddie on June 11, 2018, 06:32:31 PM
Keep 'em coming, folks.  Keep 'em coming.

I'm done with this thread.  It's not worth the insults and like I said, I don't care enough about Star Wars to put up with this shite.  Have fun.

It was a cheap shot on my part. I just find you a bit of a snob generally about films, but I shouldn't have posted that. Apologies.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 11, 2018, 06:38:24 PM

You're a voice of reason round these parts, don't leave me alone with the people who reckon this piece of shit film was good.

I'm still happy to chime in occasionally to say how abysmal a film it is.

I'm also in a position now to rub further salt into that wound by saying Solo, which is no masterpiece itself, is infinitely better than Last Jedi.

Assume everyone's seen this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm3SAjgqDn0

This film is fucking awful, but I will never understand the appeal of spending months obsessing about how awful it is

wooders1978

I can't recall if I've chimed in to say it's dross or not but just in case: it IS dross!

popcorn


Obel

See you back in this thread soon, St Eddie.

greenman

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on June 12, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
This film is fucking awful, but I will never understand the appeal of spending months obsessing about how awful it is

To be fair people spent over a decade obsessing about the prequels.

QDRPHNC



SteveDave

Has anyone posted about the great bunch of lads on Twitter dot com who say they've got $200,000,000 to remake The Last Jedi how it should've been made?

https://movieweb.com/last-jedi-remake-star-wars-fans-offer/

momatt

Fucking dickheads.
Just watch something else.

idunnosomename

Why don't they raise money to remake Episodes I-III instead, so they have believable characters that interact in dramatic ways instead of just people having dull expository dialogue in order to move the movie along to the next video-game sequence shit

Dr Rock


QuoteThis campaign has been making the rounds on Twitter and even got the attention of Rian Johnson. The director responded by saying, "please please please please pleeeeeeeaaaase please actually happen please please please please please."

You can be sarcy mate but a drunken hen party who have all had their faces melted off by an exploding lorry full of chip-fat could make a better Star Wars film.

Shit Good Nose

Thanks to having to babysit my Star Wars mad shitbag nephew (whom I really don't like), I've just had to sit through it on DVD.  Fucking hell, it's even worse on the small screen.  I haven't seen any of them since their original cinema runs, but I'm starting to think Last Jedi is even worse than the prequels...

Mango Chimes

This thread is the worst thing.
The prequels are above that, by quite some way, but still in bad territory, although the third one is verging on alright in parts.
The main three are okay.
The Force Awakens fucks the story as much as the prequels did, maybe moreso. It's an incredibly bleak move in the guise of fun.
The Last Jedi is weird, in that it seems to be nakedly trying to salvage something out of the dead-end of TFA.

There's a strong possibility, playing this game of 'you write the next sentence' that they seem to be playing, that the next episode will have Abrams reversing Johnson's reversals – Snoke's back! Rey's parents AREN'T nobodies!

Then hopefully the next film will be Johnson's and he can reverse that again. Two forces in a meta-war for control of the story.

The term 'Mary Sue' is sexist bollocks.

Mister Six


Mango Chimes

I think it is. I don't recall hearing it before, but the volume it's being screeched because they've put a female protagonist in a Star Wars film is notable.

Coupled with the fact that the term apparently (I've just looked it up!) specifically refers to a side-character being introduced as an author surrogate, so it doesn't even make sense being applied to the protagonist in a multi-authored corporate Star Wars movie, except for it being a neatly patronising lady name to show disdain for a lady protagonist.

Further coupled with the fact I've not come across any such cacophony about Harry Potter or James Bond or Neo or Luke Skywalker or Anakin Skywalker or Peter Parker or Doctor Who being a Mary Sue. Magically-powerful male protagonists, if anything, tend to get compared to Jesus Christ, which doesn't have quite the patronising "little girl" ring to it.

Dr Rock

Peter Parker isn't a 'Gary Sue.' Captain Kirk and Batman arguably are.

edit- although Batman has the bit where he trained his whole life so maybe Superman is better example.

Blumf

Quote from: Mango Chimes on June 22, 2018, 11:13:48 PM
The term 'Mary Sue' is sexist bollocks.

The term was coined by a woman, so that makes you the massive misogynistic rape apologist.

So there!

Replies From View

Women don't even know what coins are.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Mango Chimes on June 23, 2018, 01:20:41 AM
I think it is. I don't recall hearing it before, but the volume it's being screeched because they've put a female protagonist in a Star Wars film is notable.

Coupled with the fact that the term apparently (I've just looked it up!) specifically refers to a side-character being introduced as an author surrogate, so it doesn't even make sense being applied to the protagonist in a multi-authored corporate Star Wars movie, except for it being a neatly patronising lady name to show disdain for a lady protagonist.

There was a female protagonist in Star Wars before, her name was Leia. She was very popular.

The author surrogate part is not always necessary.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

QuoteMary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.

TV Tropes doesn't get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, the characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half-Human Hybrid masquerading as a human, and die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good for This Sinful Earth. (Or space, as the case may be.)

Even back then, there wasn't a total consensus on what was or wasn't Mary Sue, since it's not always immediately obvious which character is an Author Avatar. As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think.
The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)
In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

Over time, a male variant started to see use. Marty Stu (also known as Gary Stu, for those who prefer rhyme to alliteration) wasn't really that much different from Mary. Also an Author Avatar, it usually had implications of being a male crew member that tended to completely outshine established canon members in their roles and often become the best starship captain, ever. See The Ace. Since the female characters of Star Trek were all in secondary roles at best, the relationship angle was generally disregarded as being any sort of qualifier. Because of the not-entirely-unjustified perception that Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls, Marty Stu didn't really catch on for a long time.

Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much Internet Backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.

These last two paragraphs are why it's so hard to really nail down a definition of "Mary Sue": the term has started to be used in a much wider context, and to mean much wider things, than it once did, and there's no way to figure out which of those characteristics are necessary and sufficient to define a Mary Sue.

Or
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary%20Sue

QuoteMary Sue
A female fanfiction character who is so perfect as to be annoying. The male equivlalent is the Marty-Stu. Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.

In short, the term Mary Sue can be applied to Rey for many reasons, people aren't just labelling her that because there's an icky girl in their Star Wars.

Ant Farm Keyboard

For fuck's sake, George LUCAS named his hero LUKE in Star Wars.

Blumf

Gene Roddenberry's middle name was Wesley

Malcy

Rumours going round that Ewan McGregor is filming something for episode 9.

Mister Six

Quote from: Mango Chimes on June 23, 2018, 01:20:41 AM
I think it is. I don't recall hearing it before, but the volume it's being screeched because they've put a female protagonist in a Star Wars film is notable.

Coupled with the fact that the term apparently (I've just looked it up!) specifically refers to a side-character being introduced as an author surrogate, so it doesn't even make sense being applied to the protagonist in a multi-authored corporate Star Wars movie, except for it being a neatly patronising lady name to show disdain for a lady protagonist.

Since you didn't know what it means until now, I'm not going to put too much stock in your value judgement. But I will say that just because a word may be being used by sexists doesn't mean it is sexist itself.

More to the point, Rey does fits key aspects of a Mary Sue character: she is beautiful, unreasonably skilled (showing an immediate control of the Force without training, unlike other characters hitherto seen), immediately earns the approval of Leia and Han, and has no negative personality attributes (unlike, say, Finn who has a couple of pratfalls, PTSD and a panic attack).

QuoteFurther coupled with the fact I've not come across any such cacophony about Harry Potter or James Bond or Neo or Luke Skywalker or Anakin Skywalker or Peter Parker or Doctor Who being a Mary Sue.

Because they're not. Luke had flaws (he rejects the calling, in Joseph Conrad style, and gives in to anger and weakness; he is also not automatically loved by any other characters, but earns their respect); Bond's a cunt; Anakin's a boring cunt; Peter Parker gets his uncle killed and is bullied at school; Doctor Who has multiple episodes about his flaws; Harry Potter is hardly held up as wonderful by all and sundry, despite his prophesied fate, and regularly get his arse hauled out of the fire by Hermione; Neo is a teenage power fantasy but doesn't really fit the Mary Sue mould.

Plus, all of those characters were at the centres of their franchises. Rey really is a Mary Sue in the original sense - dropped into an existing story to outshine everyone, including the original cast.

Blumf

People make the case for Harry Potter being a 'Gary Stu'. If he's not, he's damn close.

To put it into context; if Harry was at Rey's level of 'Sue', before the first week of Hogwarts was out, he'd have slapped Snape senseless, won the quidditch league - single handed - on the first match, overwhelmed Dumbledore with his innate skills, and defeated Voldemort with a Malfoy/Harry tag team.

Not sure what the remaining 6 books would have covered. Most likely nobody would have bothered reading them anyway.

It's a real shame, as the introduction to Rey, the scavenger with hope, was lovely, and I really like the idea of her not having any family heritage. Removing all that dynastic baggage was one of the best things TLJ did (in a series that literally got a bit incestuous). But as soon as the main story kicks in with TFA, she's infallible, zero struggle.

Mister Six

The thing is, Harry isn't infallible or perfect - he basically relies on loads of people to help him out along the way, and he's not the bestest ever at everything - and he's not innately wonderful either. When people act deferentially around him it's because of his family history, the prophecy and the circumstances surrounding his parents' deaths, not because of his personality. He doesn't even really have any mates outside of his core pals. The staff are largely indifferent or hate him, and even Dumbledore's mostly only nice to him because he's setting him up to be killed.

He's an idealised fantasy for sure, but not a full-on Mary Sue.

Christ, I'm a fucking embarrassment.

Anyway, I agree with everything you say about Rey. Especially the stuff about her not being part of the divine right of bloody kings. 

Bad Ambassador

The insane declaration of fan independence that's been posted on Twitter is worth a read.