Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Default to the negative]

The prequels were badly flawed films but I think in the end a lot of their and others analysis of them was rather simplistic cinema 101 and a film that pretty much followed it for me ended up being a competent but largely forgettable diversion nowhere close to the originals.

The prequels really weren't that bad. Sith is good and Clones is alright; I like Obi's detective subplot. They're a mixed bag but I can turn a blind eye to the bits I don't like. The only prequel I find insufferable is The Phantom Menace. The worst things about that film – Jar Jar and little Annie – are integral and central to the story. They have lots of screentime and the film doesn't allow you to ignore them.

Maybe if TPM had been better, there would have been more goodwill towards the next two films.

[Replies From View]

I never really understood this aspect especially, the film does of course look to recreate the setting of the originals but really in terms of "nudge nudge" style references I only caught a couple of very short ones with the bar aliens and 3PO/R2. The latter kind of cheaper nostalgia is I think much more present in TFA.

Admittedly I'v not watched everything they've posted on the film but some of it just seemed wantonly dishonest, there commentary and selective editing of that street shootout for example claiming it was totally devoid of character which obviously wasn't the case at all, several character based moments during it including some humorous then obviously the droid stuff directly afterwards.

I do think there very much tied to Abrams style simply because they've either been directly praising it or filmmaking very close to it for years beforehand. Granted there also pretty entertaining at points but really that's been the basis of there popularity and indeed that of so many less entertaining youtube clones. The prequels were badly flawed films but I think in the end a lot of their and others analysis of them was rather simplistic cinema 101 and a film that pretty much followed it for me ended up being a competent but largely forgettable diversion nowhere close to the originals.

Besides, the rouge one was set moments before episode 4 began.  Its references to the classic trilogy are more natural for that reason than the ones that crop up in the fours aweakened.

[greenman]

The prequels really weren't that bad. Sith is good and Clones is alright; I like Obi's detective subplot. They're a mixed bag but I can turn a blind eye to the bits I don't like. The only prequel I find insufferable is The Phantom Menace. The worst things about that film – Jar Jar and little Annie – are integral and central to the story. They have lots of screentime and the film doesn't allow you to ignore them.

Maybe if TPM had been better, there would have been more goodwill towards the next two films.

I would say "flawed" is the best description of them given that they weren't without there merits. Not sure I'd agree with TPM being the worst though, Jar Jar and Annie are pretty bad but really Neeson, McGregor and MacDiarmid probably provide the best acting of the prequels and I'd also say that it felt like Lucas had more original ideas there in terms of locations and set pieces, in the following films the action ended up aiming for "bigger and better" but ended up being "dull and cluttered".

There not helped by some of the one off lines/performances just being hilariously awful(Sand, my new Empire, etc) that's perhaps not indicative of the entire thing although I don't think any of them really have a decent dramatic story either. I think Rogue One by comparison shows that you can go into detail with the political side of SW without having it kill the drama, helped I think by making sure the two are more closely reflected.

[samadriel]

The prequels were badly flawed films but I think in the end a lot of their and others analysis of them was rather simplistic cinema 101

That's all you need concerning films as fundamentally shit as the prequels.

[greenman]

That's all you need concerning films as fundamentally shit as the prequels.

I'd say that films as flawed as the prequels mean you don't need to go beyond this to find obvious weaknesses BUT its a leap to then believe that this level of analysis should be the blueprint to great cinema which is exactly what seemed to happen with a lot of the hype behind TFA and Abrams. Basically beating up a child then believing you should be fighting for a boxing world title.

Someones bothered to do it...

[Ignatius_S]

The prequels really weren't that bad. Sith is good and Clones is alright; I like Obi's detective subplot. They're a mixed bag but I can turn a blind eye to the bits I don't like. The only prequel I find insufferable is The Phantom Menace. The worst things about that film – Jar Jar and little Annie – are integral and central to the story. They have lots of screentime and the film doesn't allow you to ignore them.

Maybe if TPM had been better, there would have been more goodwill towards the next two films.

The fan edits really improved things – admittedly, that might come across as damning with faint praise but do feel that it illustrated that some of the main issues were possible to get around. The one I saw had Jar Jar's dialogue changed and the character worked well for me. I really should get round to watch ones of the other prequels.

Personally, I don't care for the prequels but feel they were effective in getting a new legion of fans. I've mentioned before about going to one of the Star Wars weekends in the States and was surprised but just how popular the prequels were (and being pitied for thinking that they weren't the best). 

[samadriel]

I'd say that films as flawed as the prequels mean you don't need to go beyond this to find obvious weaknesses BUT its a leap to then believe that this level of analysis should be the blueprint to great cinema which is exactly what seemed to happen

When?  Where? Who made this leap? What are you talking about?

[greenman]

When?  Where? Who made this leap? What are you talking about?

I would say RLM most certainly did as have a lot of similar reviewers and going by comments on the net a lot of people who watch them, hence Abrams film very often framed soley in relation to the prequels.

[mothman]

Liam Neeson is probably a much bigger star nowadays than he was then, but even at the time I remember it being quite a big deal when he was cast. I wonder if he'd been able to appear in Clones (but couldn't due to a motorcycle accident) as intended )as a Force ghost, obviously), if it would have improved the story. Though maybe not, after all a key point of the story is that Kenobi is largely oblivious to Anakin's turning bad (and lacking the training to train him properly) and having Qui-gon manifesting to tell him (and advise on how to fix it) would be kind of a plot hole.

[Default to the negative]

Though maybe not, after all a key point of the story is that Kenobi is largely oblivious to Anakin's turning bad (and lacking the training to train him properly) and having Qui-gon manifesting to tell him (and advise on how to fix it) would be kind of a plot hole.

I know it doesn't count, but this actually happened in an episode of The Clone Wars. (And Neeson returned to do the voice acting.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aE_XtzHopk

[momatt]

As disliked as they are, it would be weird if there wasn't at least some small references to the prequels or some common ground in the new films.  A gungan walking around in the background, a mention of clone troopers or some sleek silver spaceships.  That'd be enough.
Seems odd to just pretend they never happened and ignore all the good things about them.

[Old Nehamkin]

As disliked as they are, it would be weird if there wasn't at least some small references to the prequels or some common ground in the new films.  A gungan walking around in the background, mention of clones or some sleek silver spaceships.  That'd be enough.
Seems odd to just pretend they never happened.

They did mention clones in The Force Awakens. Ewan McGregor also made a brief vocal cameo during Rey's force vision thing. So there you go.

[momatt]

Ok, can't remember that but fair enough!
I want some gungans next please, thanks.  Not enough to ruin the film, but enough to piss off the Jar Jar haterz.

[mothman]

I know it doesn't count, but this actually happened in an episode of The Clone Wars. (And Neeson returned to do the voice acting.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aE_XtzHopk

Wow, didn't know that, thanks. But doesn't that then contradict (or is contradicted by - I don't know which came out first) RotS? Where Obi doesn't know about Force ghosts until the end?

[greenman]

As disliked as they are, it would be weird if there wasn't at least some small references to the prequels or some common ground in the new films.  A gungan walking around in the background, a mention of clone troopers or some sleek silver spaceships.  That'd be enough.
Seems odd to just pretend they never happened and ignore all the good things about them.

Jimmy Smits is in Rogue One of course, theres been fan theories about Snoke having links to the prequels such as being Darth Plagueis.

[Default to the negative]

some small references to the prequels or some common ground in the new films.

The actress who plays Mon Mothma in Rogue One, was also supposed to play her in Revenge of the Sith. You can still see her in the deleted scenes of that film.

Wow, didn't know that, thanks. But doesn't that then contradict (or is contradicted by - I don't know which came out first) RotS? Where Obi doesn't know about Force ghosts until the end?

Eh, not exactly. That scene is from the controversial 'Mortis' arc which is often explained away as a kind of non-canon dream sequence.

[momatt]

Jimmy Smits is in Rogue One of course, theres been fan theories about Snoke having links to the prequels such as being Darth Plagueis.

That would be fucking great.  Some MEGA-emperor who has been controlling everything throughout all three trilogies.
Then at the end, he wins.  I'd love that!

The actress who plays Mon Mothma in Rogue One, was also supposed to play her in Revenge of the Sith. You can still see her in the deleted scenes of that film.

I want to like this idea, but wouldn't Mon Mothma be about 15 years old in Revenge of the Sith?

As for multiple story arcs, realities and canons - that kind of thing annoys and confuses me.  It's surely the sign of an aging franchise that should just stop and let other things take it's place.
Most people would be happy with the three films - nothing more, nothing less.

[Default to the negative]

Most people would be happy with the three films - nothing more, nothing less.

You can have just the three films if that is what you want.

Honestly, sometimes people make it sound like George Lucas is forcing them into a life of Star Wars slavery.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

What this obsession folk seem to have with Snoke having some secret identity? The Emperor's first appearance was as a giant hologram, but he didn't look any different in person (aside from being played by a different actor, with chimp eyes).

I reckon it's because people bought into the hype about the film being made like the originals - and not the hated prequels - so they have to fanwank an excuse for there's being an obviously CGI character in there.

[Default to the negative]

What this obsession folk seem to have with Snoke having some secret identity?

Because he looks old enough to have been alive during Palpy's time. But him being alive in those days, it doesn't quite make sense. He would have been a rival of Palpy, and probably a more pressing concern than the rebels.

I'm going with the theory that Snoke is just a holocron. It fits with the First Order and their artificiality. A simulation of an emperor, in lieu of a real one.

[Blumf]

Nobody going for the Mace Windu theory?

[greenman]

What this obsession folk seem to have with Snoke having some secret identity? The Emperor's first appearance was as a giant hologram, but he didn't look any different in person (aside from being played by a different actor, with chimp eyes).

I reckon it's because people bought into the hype about the film being made like the originals - and not the hated prequels - so they have to fanwank an excuse for there's being an obviously CGI character in there.

I'd guess a lot of it is out of hope as the character as presented seemed rather dull, perhaps the mostly inappropriately named character in film history as well, "Snoke" to me seems more like something you'd call a cute but mischievous CG alien Rey keeps in her backpack.

[phantom_power]

Because he looks old enough to have been alive during Palpy's time. But him being alive in those days, it doesn't quite make sense. He would have been a rival of Palpy, and probably a more pressing concern than the rebels.

There is no evidence that Snoke is any kind of powerful Jedi, rather than just some bad guy who has worked his way up to the top. Despite the world of possibilities, the Star Wars world (in film at least) has been pretty small and self contained. Who knows what else was going on in the galaxy during the events of the prequels

[mothman]

Eh, not exactly. That scene is from the controversial 'Mortis' arc which is often explained away as a kind of non-canon dream sequence.

Ah, I see. Not up on the Clone Wars, myself.

[greenman]

Given that the first order push the Nazi side of the Empire much more heavily though having an alien for a leader doesn't seem to make much sense unless he's some kind of force user.

[mothman]

I never really thought about it, but presumably there's some planned arc for this trilogy? Sonebody has written it? Somebody has the final say on what happens? If, who is that? Not Lucas obviously. Abrams? The producers? The Disney board?

[Blumf]

A giant hologram of a defrosted Walt Disney head.

[Default to the negative]

INT. DISNEY - BRIDGE - DAY

General Abrams and George Lucas walk the length of the bridge.

ABRAMS
Supreme Leader Iger was explicit.
Capture the franchise if we can, but
destroy it if we must.

LUCAS
How capable are your actors,
General?

ABRAMS
I won't have you question my methods.

LUCAS
They're obviously skilled at
committing high treason. Perhaps
Leader Iger should consider using a
CGI army.

ABRAMS
My men are exceptionally trained -
programmed from birth.

LUCAS
Then they should have no problem working Jar Jar Binks into this film. Unharmed.

ABRAMS
Careful, George, that your "personal
interests" not interfere with orders
from Leader Iger.

LUCAS
I want a Jar Jar scene. For your sake, I
suggest you get it.

[greenman]

I never really thought about it, but presumably there's some planned arc for this trilogy? Sonebody has written it? Somebody has the final say on what happens? If, who is that? Not Lucas obviously. Abrams? The producers? The Disney board?

Rian Johnson is writing the story for episode 8 and episode 9 so I'd imagine he's going to be coming up with the main arc. As I said I view TFA more as a bit of a stopgap, a chance to work the safe Abrams formula without really committing to much beyond introducing the new leads.

[Replies From View]

I'd guess a lot of it is out of hope as the character as presented seemed rather dull, perhaps the mostly inappropriately named character in film history as well, "Snoke" to me seems more like something you'd call a cute but mischievous CG alien Rey keeps in Yoda whom she's using as her backpack.