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[Israel, Palestine] Election

Started by mayer, November 27, 2004, 02:15:57 PM

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mayer

Quote from: "Blumf"Israeli region

Depends what you mean by that :-)


Also, the Jews forcably evicted the Cannanites from the land, who were there first. They even admit it in the bible.

Pinball

Yeah, it's human nature. Everyone fucking everyone else over. Sad but true. All that changes is who fucks whom.

mayer


Blumf

Quote from: "mayer"
Quote from: "Blumf"Israeli region

Depends what you mean by that :-)

Er... I don't know :-)

QuoteAlso, the Jews forcably evicted the Cannanites from the land, who were there first. They even admit it in the bible.

What happened to them? Damm my pre-GCSE history and RE education!

mayer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanites

QuoteThe Bible indicates that God cautioned the Israelites against the sexual depravities of the Canaanites and their fertility cult (Leviticus 18:27). Thus the land of the Canaanites (specifically the Amorites, Hivites, Hethites, Girgashites and Jebusites) was deemed suitable for conquest by the Israelites partly on moral grounds. Deuteronomy 20:16-17, one of the 613 mitzvot, prescribes that no inhabitants of the cities of six Canaanite nations, the same as mentioned in 7:1, minus the Girgashites, are to be left alive.

Bloodthirsty!


Arafat sometimes claimed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the Canaanites. He was talking crap though.

slim

I'm a Jebusite and I want my oil-rich land back too.

Flippancy aside, this thread's very interesting, thanks for all the informative posts, (mostly) all.

Blumf

Quote from: "mayer"Arafat sometimes claimed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the Canaanites. He was talking crap though.

This is the problem doing casual seraches on the web with this subject, too much noise from the various factions with their own adgendas.

mayer

I'm somewhat affiliated to a faction with my very own agenda, so anything I say, check, check and check again!

Blumf

I know your posts are all part of the Zionist conspiracy, don't you worry, I'm on to you! :-)

Indeed, I was most interested to learn that mayer is occupying East Jerusalem.

Blumf

Didn't realise he was that fat

All Surrogate

Quote from: "Blumf"Is their any resource plotting the ownership of the Israeli region from Moses to today? (actually, who was there before Moses?)
In fact, the board's very own Kingboy_D produced a short history of the Promised Land, linked to in The Promised Land: 2000 BC - 1948 AD thread.  I found it very informative.

The Extremists Part One and The Extremists Part Two are follow-up articles, which I haven't read; I can't find Part Three.

Blumf

Quote from: "All Surrogate"
Quote from: "Blumf"Is their any resource plotting the ownership of the Israeli region from Moses to today? (actually, who was there before Moses?)
In fact, the board's very own Kingboy_D produced a short history of the Promised Land, linked to in The Promised Land: 2000 BC - 1948 AD thread.  I found it very informative.

The Extremists Part One and The Extremists Part Two are follow-up articles, which I haven't read; I can't find Part Three.

This is lovely, just the kind of thing I was after.

humanleech

Does anyone have any ideas about what the Israeli government is planning to do on the West Bank? That must be the most crucial of several million crucial questions about the future. Four very minor outlying settlements/colonies have been removed, but is Sharon planning a general expansion?

Also, a poster earlier said that if one Israeli policeman is killed, the military should go back in in force. Well, at leat one policeman is bound to be killed, so then we would be back to the starting block if that poster has his way.

mayer

Quote from: "humanleech"is Sharon planning a general expansion?

Sharon won't be Israeli Prime Minister by the end of the next election. He won't be alive by 2015 odd, so people should stop personalizing the conflict around one man who's only been Prime Minister for what adds up to the equivalent of one full term of office to date.


Quote from: "humanleech"Also, a poster earlier said that if one Israeli policeman is killed, the military should go back in in force. Well, at leat one policeman is bound to be killed, so then we would be back to the starting block if that poster has his way.

Who said that? Where?

I said that if one Israeli soldier is killed by a Jewish settler then they have the right to respond with deadly force.

mayer

Quote from: "I, in another guise, in this thread""Gaza Withdrawal (if any Settler cunts shoot a single bullet at an Israeli soldier then I say go in hard... I don't think that'll happen though, I figure it'll be a repeat of the Sinai withdrawal, some protests, some minor kicking and wailing, but ultimately not too much of a divide in the country)


See.

"Settler cunts", not "Palestinians". "Soldier" not "policeman". And "Gaza" not "anywhere else".


"That poster" is sick to fuck of being totally misinterpreted.

All Surrogate

Quote from: "All Surrogate"Kingboy_D being all clever
Quote from: "Blumf"This is lovely, just the kind of thing I was after.
I'm glad I could help.  Given jutl's approval, I feel I can trust it.

mayer

*Has a re-scan*.


One minor problem with it, but it's an often misquoted bit, which is why I'm pointing it out.

QuoteThou shalt not kill

Is not one of the Ten Commandments. The text states "Though shalt not murder (tersakh)" rather than "Though shalt not kill (harag)".


Lots of very very interesting stuff in there.... *bookmarks for re-reading when I'm less hungover*.

mayer

The other factor which needs to be examined in the context of the Sephardi/Ashkenazi/Jewish ancestral claims to Palestine are of course the converse claims of Palestinian claims of ancestral rights to the land, of who and what is a Palestinian, and so on.

What also has to be asked is how many indigenous Palestinians there were before the First World War, how many of those were Jews, and in what numbers the influx of non-Palestinian Arabs into Palestine from 1900-1948 was, numbers I admit I don't have.



The issue of "refugees" is also a confus-ed one in my eyes.


QuoteAlthough there is no accepted definition of who can be considered Palestinian refugees for legal purposes, UNRWA defines them as "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict... UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948.


That latter part, to me, is almost absurd. Am I a refugee from Aden?



The UN estimates 711,000 Palestinian refugees from the 1948 conflict, yet now:

QuoteUnder UNWRA's definition the total number of Palestinian refugees is estimated at 4.9 million, one third of whom live in the West Bank and Gaza; slightly less than one third in Jordan; 17% in Syria and Lebanon and around 15% in other Arab and Western countries


Being a refugee in the West Bank and Gaza is a contentious issue. Those are de-facto Palestinian land. Some would argue that being a third generation refugee in Jordan or America is even more so.


QuoteA refugee is a person seeking refuge (or asylum) in another country in order to escape persecution. Those who seek refugee status are sometimes known as asylum seekers and the practice of accepting such refugees is that of offering political asylum. The most common asylum claims are based upon political and religious grounds.


UNWRA's definition of a Palestinian refugee is different from the UN's definition of any other type of refugee, and is more a political crowbar than intended to assist individuals.

Blumf

Are there any onther differences between 'murder' and 'kill' other than voluntary killing (i.e. assisted suicide) and accidental?

mayer

Quote from: "Blumf"Are the only differences between 'murder' and 'kill' other than voluntary killing (i.e. assisted suicide) and accidental?

Nope. "Murder" is really a loaded meaningless term in Hebrew used like that in its Biblical context. Capital Punishment isn't murder, nor any other killing which the Bible allows (wars and so on).

"Thou shalt not murder" really means "Thou shalt not kill illegally" - really, it's an almost meaningless commandment couched in those terms, unless you fully accept (or at least are aware of) the Biblical notions of what does and doesn't constitute illegal killing.

mayer

Quote from: "Wikipedia, on Moussa 'Corrupt Cousin of Yasser' Arafat's death"Shortly before 5 AM on September 7, 2005, dozens of masked gunmen (estimates of their number range from 80 to 100) in a convoy of about 20 vehicles, and armed with assault rifles and anti-tank grenades, stormed Arafat's home in Gaza. After a gunfight with Arafat's large team of bodyguards, the gunmen dragged Arafat outside in his pajamas, and shot him dead with one bullet in his head and fourteen in his body. They then ran over his corpse with a car.

While Arafat's home is close to a security forces headquarters and only 300-400 metres from Palestinian Authority president Abbas's residence, media reports state that the police did not appear until 7:00 AM, about two hours after the incident.


And shooting by Egyptian forces on the newly evacuated hectic Gaza/Egyptian border, one Palestinian dead, apparently.


Hopefully the latter is just one of those things that flares up which will calm down in weeks and months. The former, what can you say? If Abbas/the PA can't get control over the fuckwit power-conflicts that'll be raging in Gaza now, then what on earth is going to happen long term. What hope for a Palestinian state if Gaza can't be run without conflicting gangs running around having it out with each other.

sproggy

Apparently Sharon has given an emotional speech at the UN bash calling for

Quote"reconciliation and compromise with Palestinians to end the bloody conflict"

I seem to recall the last Israeli Prime Minister who suggested something similar, ended up dead with a bullet in his head courtesy of some jumped-up, middle class law student.

Still, I suppose it's a glimmer of hope on a cloudy horizon.

mayer

Quote from: "sproglette"
I seem to recall the last Israeli Prime Minister who suggested something similar, ended up dead with a bullet in his head courtesy of some jumped-up, middle class law student.

Ehud Barak got shot!?!?!?!?

mayer

For Neil

:-)

Israel Kills Militant Chief in Offensive

QuoteGAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israel pressed forward with a broad offensive against Islamic militants on Sunday, killing an Islamic Jihad commander in a pinpoint airstrike in the Gaza Strip and rounding up more than 200 wanted Palestinians. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon promised to use ``all means'' against the militants.

The offensive, coming just two weeks after Israel withdrew from Gaza, followed a wave of militant rocket attacks against Israeli towns over the weekend. Israel has promised to continue with its airstrikes, arrests and a possible ground invasion until the rocket fire ceases.


QuoteAfter the airstrike, Mohammed al-Hindi, Islamic Jihad's top leader in Gaza and the West Bank, said the group would no longer honor the cease-fire. ``There is no talk of a truce, there is only room for talk of war,'' he said.

QuoteAlthough the truce has brought a sharp drop in fighting, Islamic Jihad has carried out a series of attacks in recent months, including three suicide bombings in Israel. The group says all of its attacks have been in response to perceived Israeli violations of the truce.

Harfyyn Teuport

Grim.

They say 'After the airstrike' there, do they refuse to accept responsibility for the recent bombings/rocket attacks or do they claim they were separate, justifiable actions in accordance with their supposed truce? My mind's set to boggle function at the moment...

mayer

They accept responsibility for the bombings, but they were retaliatory for other Israeli actions - the rights and wrongs of each incident can be flung about of course, and often are.

What amuses me in a twisted way is that when there's the chain of [Oppression -] Suicide Bombing/Katuysha Rocket attack - Targetted Assasination, and then a Hamas/IJ leader says that "the truce is now over" like that's a meaningful statement.

It's been going on on-and-off for half a decade.

What amused me more back in the day was after a suicide bombing, when Saeb Erakat and Hanan Ashwari would say "the Israelis should not lash out, because this will result in more attacks and end the cease-fire", neglecting to understand that a bombing means that the cease-fire's already ended, the sillies.

They don't say the bombings were in accordance with the truce, but since they're ostensibly a response to Incident A or B, they're meant to be somehow exempt from the truce. Somehow.



Gaza's a little fucked, unless Abbas can get a handle on things, which he can't. Which doesn't bode well for things in general.

*sighs*

Harfyyn Teuport

At every possible venture I hasten to draw parallels between the two situations, but there are definite similarities with Northern Ireland's republican/loyalist ceasefires and the steady erosion of their meaning at different stages during the past ten years. Just recently for example, the UVF killed 6 enemies in as many weeks this summer, and attempted 17 other murders during that time, yet their ceasefire was only declared null and void when they provided bombs for those rioting against the police a fortnight ago. And the UDA's ceasefire has still not been declared bankrupt because they said - two days after rioting began - that really everyone should stop. Despite their tendencies toward murder, drug peddling, prostituion rackets and involvement in militant, organised fascism.

mayer

*nods*

I'm really not pointing fingers or apportioning blame. What I'm saying is that if IJ bomb Israel because the Israelis have broken the ceasfire, then say so! You can't bomb, and then say "oh, if owt happens in response the ceasefire's over". It just sounds bizzare to anyone watching.

Likewise, Israel can't talk about the ceasefire existing if it continues with these operations, especially in Gaza which it shouldn't have to be in at all.


I er, give up. (Not tha I ever did anything helpful in the first place mind....).

mayer

Peres suprisingly loses an internal leadership vote! At last.

Amir Peretz is the new Labour leader and wants an early election!

I've had a bet on Sharon not lasting a full term (it's always been statistically unlikely) that I was scared I might have lost come next year. Maybe not!


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