Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 11:14:38 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri

Started by MoonDust, March 24, 2017, 12:30:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

zomgmouse

Saw this last night and thought it was really good. I also liked both In Bruges and Seven Psychopaths though of course this goes much more poignant much more quickly. I think what I respond to in M.McDonagh's films is how fast the dialogue is. Too many films like slowing down the way people speak and here people speak fast which I like. He also has a knack for very very funny lines and a nice balance between the gutting and the hilarious. Maybe a bit on the shock value side, but hey. Acting was for the most part superb (the younger cast with the exception of Caleb Landry Jones were the ones who let the team down). I wasn't too convinced by the Sam Rockwell character's change of heart/redemption but otherwise little to fault plot-wise, though I have seen comments along the lines of "yet another film with rape as a pivotal plot device", which, fair enough.

This is getting a fair deal of awards attention and popularity, and it does seem like it straddles the mainstream-arthouse divide quite comfortably. Good on Marty Mac.

phantom_power

I loved it but apparently it is getting some stick from black critics (that is critics who are black, not critics of the colour black) for some reason. I presume it is about the redemptive arc of Rockwell's character but it seems a bit of a simplification. Not wanting to negate other people's feelings on this and aware that I am not necessarily the best person to judge this so am willing to be convinced otherwise

willy crossit

Quote from: phantom_power on January 10, 2018, 10:18:58 AM
I loved it but apparently it is getting some stick from black critics (that is critics who are black, not critics of the colour black) for some reason. I presume it is about the redemptive arc of Rockwell's character but it seems a bit of a simplification. Not wanting to negate other people's feelings on this and aware that I am not necessarily the best person to judge this so am willing to be convinced otherwise

I'm not surprised tbh

Having a racist cop character who we're told tortured a black prisoner have any sort of redemptive arc without any attempt to address that is weird af

And the few black characters there were were pushed to the background largely

The conversation in the interview room with Rockwell, Harrelson and McDormand felt pretty icky as well. I'm surprised there hasn't been more fuss over it tbh

phantom_power

I don't know. It is a film where all the characters are flawed and to me the character was more a person who used his position in the police to be violent and thuggish to everyone, and one of those people happened to be black. I was never sure if his racist language was just part of that and used to bait people he didn't like. His redemption, such that it is, is his attempt to actually be a proper policeman, or at least one with an interest in justice, even if it is of the "eye for an eye" variety. I am not sure if he was properly racist to begin with, and whether he has changed from whatever starting position by the end. It isn't really part of the story. Is being racist a character flaw that just can't be overlooked when dealing with flawed characters?

BlodwynPig

A ford is a much cheaper form of river crossing than a bridge, but it may become impassable after heavy rain or during flood conditions. A ford is therefore normally only suitable for very minor roads (and for paths intended for walkers and horse riders etc.). Most modern fords are usually shallow enough to be crossed by cars and other wheeled or tracked vehicles (a process known as "fording").

willy crossit

Quote from: phantom_power on January 10, 2018, 01:46:07 PM
Is being racist a character flaw that just can't be overlooked when dealing with flawed characters?

Maybe for me and you but I can see why it would put off some black critics. I mean leaving aside the rest of the stuff you're being asked to sympathise with a white cop who tortured a black prisoner - I imagine for a lot of viewers you can leave whether he's racist or just confrontational at the door at that point

Sorry I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm not v good at expressing myself on here but those things stood out for me

phantom_power

Quote from: willy crossit on January 10, 2018, 02:04:17 PM
Maybe for me and you but I can see why it would put off some black critics. I mean leaving aside the rest of the stuff you're being asked to sympathise with a white cop who tortured a black prisoner - I imagine for a lot of viewers you can leave whether he's racist or just confrontational at the door at that point

Sorry I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm not v good at expressing myself on here but those things stood out for me

No, I can see what you mean but he also beats the shit out of a white bloke and chucks him out of a window so he is clearly a violent person and the "redemption" is him aiming that violence in the right direction. I use quotes because I am not sure it is redemption. He is one of several awful, tragic figures in an awful, tragic tale.

I can see why black critics might feel otherwise and maybe we aren't in a place in society where that sort of thing can be overlooked but I just found it odd that in a story that wasn't really about race and racism, this was singled out. I think the redemption they see him having at the end isn't what I saw. Or rather if there was redemption it was over his general abuse of power and violence rather than any racism.

I think maybe the film would have been better off (and less muddled) if it had left the racial element out and just had him being a violent prick of a local cop

willy crossit

Quote from: phantom_power on January 10, 2018, 02:22:50 PM

I think maybe the film would have been better off (and less muddled) if it had left the racial element out and just had him being a violent prick of a local cop

definitely 100%

phantom_power

That being said I don't think the film is sunk with it in, though admittedly I am saying that from a honky perspective.

The thing is the main aspect of Rockwell's "redemption" is he goes off to kill someone he doesn't definitely know has raped anyone. And even if he does he's still a cop offering to murder someone. There is no usual Hollywood redemption. Even with McDormand, she's had horrible things happen to her but she's far from a sympathetic character. If anything I think the film shows the dangers of being consumed with revenge and how the idea of revenge as catharsis that's been offered up by so many films is fake. The closest we get to redemption is them expressing doubt about whether it's the right thing to do to kill someone.

phantom_power

Yes, I completely agree with your spoilered text, which is why I am struggling with this idea of redemption that people are saying Rockwell is given.


zomgmouse

Quote from: phantom_power on January 10, 2018, 02:52:13 PM
Yes, I completely agree with your spoilered text, which is why I am struggling with this idea of redemption that people are saying Rockwell is given.

I think by "redemption" it's meant "you are meant to start sympathising with him". In terms of character development and audience reaction I'd say that's redemption.

I think the backlash is more an effect of the way the awards have become increasingly political for a certain element of the fanbase. I can remember it going back to at least the year of Crash/Brokeback. That was year when it was deemed if you didn't like Brokeback you were homophobic, if you didn't like Crash you were racist, and there were battle lines drawn. The following year Dreamgirls was deemed the early frontrunner and when that started flopping racism was blamed again. When it was Avatar vs The Hurt Locker it became about the cause of a woman director winning. I think social media has increasingly seen people drawn to the Oscars who don't normally get involved with film and then it becomes a case of backing the film that reflects their politics and trying to take down a frontrunner. With Billboards this backlash has only really started since it became a frontrunner for the awards. I personally haven't seen a backlash from black critics, I've just seen it coming from people on Twitter. In fact the Black Film Critics Circle named it the third best film of 2017 and awarded it best actress. Much like last year the backlash against La La Land only really caught fire when it started beating Moonlight in the precursor awards. I think this year and last year this has gone to another level as a reaction against real world politics. I've seen comments on Twitter from people decrying the film when it seems like they haven't actually seen it. Lady Bird has become the film of choice from most, and you can understand the desire for the Oscars to award a film directed by a woman. But as is the way with social media that means anything that isn't that becomes an enemy.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Not wanting to spoil it too much but by virtue of the fact it is a non resolve it can't be nasty. It can only be nasty if what you think is going to happen happens. That's very far from what I took to be the case.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote
I think maybe the film would have been better off (and less muddled) if it had left the racial element out and just had him being a violent prick of a local cop

That was what he was. The fact he was also a lazy racist (using race as an excuse for violence from the comfort of a small town position of authority, rather than being a a grim far gone race warrior) comes with the small town territory, and I didn't see any particular difficulty at all with the idea a life event caused him to reflect on his mistakes versus the sorrow of the central character and try in his usual shit way to make amends.

phantom_power

Quote from: zomgmouse on January 11, 2018, 05:28:42 AM
I think by "redemption" it's meant "you are meant to start sympathising with him". In terms of character development and audience reaction I'd say that's redemption.

So for some people are you not allowed to sympathise with a racist? Did Monster's Ball get this amount of stick?

phantom_power

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 11, 2018, 07:32:51 AM
That was what he was. The fact he was also a lazy racist (using race as an excuse for violence from the comfort of a small town position of authority, rather than being a a grim far gone race warrior) comes with the small town territory, and I didn't see any particular difficulty at all with the idea a life event caused him to reflect on his mistakes versus the sorrow of the central character and try in his usual shit way to make amends.

I think with us being white we might see it through a different lens though. I didn't find it problematic myself but can sort of see how people might. Of course we can explain away and justify it but in the current climate I can see why some people might think they shouldn't have to. I think in years to come there won't be this furore (such that there is) over it

Really though the racist stuff doesn't really add to the film and potentially muddies the waters of what the film is trying to say. It is maybe one element too many in an already complex brew

zomgmouse

Quote from: phantom_power on January 11, 2018, 08:31:07 AM
So for some people are you not allowed to sympathise with a racist? Did Monster's Ball get this amount of stick?

I don't think it's that you're not allowed to, just that he's this violent psychopath who's tortured a black prisoner and then all of a sudden he has a change of heart and because he does something remotely nice and poignant the film is asking us to view him through a new lens. I can certainly see how that might rub people the wrong way.

phantom_power

I think you are simplifying what happens a bit there, which is part of the problem I have with the criticisms

Yeah, it's really over simplifying to put it down to just a change of heart. He'd already lost his job because of his temper, and we find out in the letter Woody left him that being a detective was all he  ever wanted. It's also said that he became angry and violent after the death of his father and with Woody's death he's lost another father figure, the only person who seemed to really care for him. He has to come in after hours to collect the letter from Woody and that's why he gets caught in the fire. His injuries are all his own fault because if he hadn't attacked Red he wouldn't have been fired and wouldn't have been there so late. Then when he's in hospital and regretting his behaviour he gets a small act of kindness from Red. He's gone through a major life event and it's caused him to reflect on his behaviour. At the end he's calmer and more thoughtful but he's still a psychopath. The guy in the bar could have been lying. We've already seen him threatening Frances McDormand, he clearly gets off on that kind of power but he could also just be a fantasist trying to impress some guy in a bar. But Rockwell's first instinct is if the law can't get him then he will. Ultimately he's still the same person, he's just trying to do the right thing.

phantom_power

And McDormand is a massively flawed character as well but it is easier to accept sympathy with her because the reasons are more clearly stated to us.

jobotic

Quote from: zomgmouse on January 11, 2018, 12:21:46 PM
I don't think it's that you're not allowed to, just that he's this violent psychopath who's tortured a black prisoner and then all of a sudden he has a change of heart and because he does something remotely nice and poignant the film is asking us to view him through a new lens. I can certainly see how that might rub people the wrong way.

Haven't seen this film but it sounds like half of James Ellroy's characters.

phantom_power

That's true actually. I would say he was more like Russell Crowe's character in LA Confidential than a straight-up racist.

jobotic

Yeah, although the descriptions above made me think of Dave Klein in White Jazz. Maybe I should shut up until I watch it.

Sin Agog

There are so many laconic, drily amusing crime films set in the south.  This wasn't a bad one, but I'm surprised anyone was thinking 'Awards!' when they were watching or making it.  Which is cool, as all this vying for Oscars malarkey is silly, and from what I can tell doesn't seem to make the winning film a whole lotta moolah as most of them seem to very quickly drop of the map.

Not sure about that whole 'racist's redemption' backlash.  Seems like a bleeding over of a certain sector of the population's need for anyone who's ever done anything bad in their life to just swan off to an Escape From NY-style prison island and be dead to the world forever more, when nothing's ever quite as simple as it is in a fuming mind. One can actually sometimes relate to scumbags on a human level when you get into conversation with them, but it's that lack of in-person conversation that has been largely responsible for this demarcation line to begin with.  The dude putting up the billboard did scream 'Token!', though.

phantom_power

Quote from: jobotic on January 11, 2018, 05:43:44 PM
Yeah, although the descriptions above made me think of Dave Klein in White Jazz. Maybe I should shut up until I watch it.

I haven't read any Leonard so had to resort to one of his film adaptations for a comparison.

I think on the whole I am quite comfortable with the film and my opinion of it but am quite willing to defer to people who might be more on the sharp end of the whole race conversation to say it is "problematic" without putting up much of an argument. Everyone comes at films from their own experience after all

Large Noise

Spoilers

I agree that they could've done without the racism aspect of Dixion's character. It's used to signify that he's a piece of shit, fair enough, but if you're going to use that as a character trait, you have to make his redemption pertinent to that in some respect. I suppose he ends up cooperating with and handing his badge over to the black sheriff. But still, I could see why a black person would have a problem with the idea that Dixion's a good guy at the end of the film while the racism stuff remains unresolved. And to be honest, it didn't really feel satisfactory the way the film brought up race without having any non-white major characters.

That said, the political message it seems to convey is pretty radical. The billboards are a protest against the police: they're effective. She dresses up as an archetypal (Black Lives Matter anyone?) protester and torches the police station: it helps Dixon change his ways. And the rapist guy at the end turns out to be an American soldier who's just been in Afghanistan. So US white/male society really gets condemned in the harshest terms.

What's kind of interesting is that she reforms the ossified state via the private media, and in particular though advertising. Market forces in a sense play the role of a non-ideological arbiter, and end up on the side of good as a result.

Politics aside:
- I wish they didn't do the midget stuff. Why's that in there?
- I thought the characterisation was a bit patchy at times. There were scenes where the characters' behaviours didn't ring true. For example when her ex-husband flips the table and pins her against the wall, the son then to puts a knife to his throat. Then they almost instantly settle back down and resume their frosty conversation. People don't do that.
- Why was Woody Harrelson's wife 20 years younger than him?
- Her conversation with the daughter: 'I hope I get raped!'. 'Good, so do I!'... C'mon, was that necessary? They had a falling it out, but it didn't need to be spookily prescient.
- I didn't understand why the police didn't just resort to good old fashioned vandalism earlier. I suppose Willoughby is supposed to be above all that. But even so, those billboards could so easily have been sabotaged on the first night they went up with zero prospect of any repercussions for the police. Willoughby even says 'this is war' at one point. Aye, a war you could win with a packet of water balloons and a tin of emulsion.
- Willoughby's last act is to spend £5k on keeping the billboard up when he's just blown his head off and left his wife and two young kids behind!? Even if he's got life insurance and they'll get his pension and whatever else, it's still £5k and they're got a funeral to pay for.

phantom_power

Quote from: Large Noise on January 12, 2018, 06:42:27 AM
Spoilers

I agree that they could've done without the racism aspect of Dixion's character. It's used to signify that he's a piece of shit, fair enough, but if you're going to use that as a character trait, you have to make his redemption pertinent to that in some respect. I suppose he ends up cooperating with and handing his badge over to the black sheriff. But still, I could see why a black person would have a problem with the idea that Dixion's a good guy at the end of the film while the racism stuff remains unresolved. And to be honest, it didn't really feel satisfactory the way the film brought up race without having any non-white major characters.

I don't think you have to make his racism pertinent to his redemption in the same way I don't think you have to address all his character flaws in the same way. And also I don't think you are supposed to see Dixon as a "good guy" at the end, just not as bad.

You do raise some other interesting points about fairly radical politics (or lack of politics) in the film though

Twit 2

Off to see this tomorrow, really looking forward to it.