"Comedy is the new rock and roll"

[Neil]

Just got to thinking about this after a discussion in the Monkey Dust thread.  What does everyone remember about it?  How did you feel about it then, and would you feel differently if it happened these days?  Did it signal a genuine change in attitudes towards comedy, or was it a cynical way of generating more money?  Did the like of the NME cook the whole thing up just so they could promote comedians as rock stars and appeal to more people?

What were the actual merits of the situation anyway... what good, if any, came out of the whole thing?

[Munday's Chylde]

Was the phrase born of Newman & Baddiel playing Wembley or is that myth?

[Beagle 2]

On the minus side I think it maybe introduced the idea of "cool comedy", which when done badly can be extremely irritating and irrelevant, and sometimes leads to style over substance type stuff, reference based comedy and things that date badly. I mean, I suppose it was extremely cool to like Peter Cook or python at the time, but that sort of evolved rather than being by design.

On the plus side, it was nice at the time to have popular culture acknowledge comedy, and seeing things like football, music and comedy overlap with Baddiel and Skinner on the front of the NME and stuff. And people feeling the need to swear an awful lot in between the funnies is maybe an unwanted hangover.

[butnut]

I mean, I suppose it was extremely cool to like Peter Cook or python at the time, but that sort of evolved rather than being by design.

I think that's what irritates me about many modern shows. The amount of positive press a programme like Nighty Night got before it was even shown really struck of people desparate to find the 'next big thing' first. If I was to make a comedy show (and I can reassure you all that that's not going to happen) I'd want it on in a slightly unfavourable slot with as little hype as possible. (Like Larry David on Seinfeld moving to a better Thursday night slot "If they weren't watching on a Wednesday, I don't want them watching the show. I don't want to be Cheers' little brother) I know I'm probably on dodgy ground here, but it seems to me that 'evolve' their fans in a more 'natural' way (word of mouth etc.) are generally better.

The Fast Show (which prompted Neil to start this thread) is an excellent example of this. I'm pretty sure it recieved terrible reviews when it started, and who'd have thought then it would be the 'next big thing'?

[Beagle 2]

Definitely, the first showing of series one was watched by three men and a dog, me and a mate really liked it, but nobody had heard of it until the repeat when it got picked up on.

[Morrisfan82]

I watched it from the beginning, because I'd seen a trailer for a sketch show with Paul Whitehouse, Charlie Higson, John Thomson and Mark Williams in it - all people I'd seen being separately ace in other things - and was really excited. Plus the clips in the trailer looked fresh & funny. Insert digressional dig at Max & Paddy here.

Whenever anybody mentions comedyisthenewrocknroll, I immediately think of the The Mary Whitehouse Experience on TV for some reason. I can't quite put my finger on it, but that show was the first time I'd seen something funny and... just... cool and current and pop-y on TV.

[Jemble Fred]

Of course, Beyond The Fringe was the new jitterbug.

For some reason I don't hate this term, even though it could be said to have heralded the birth of comedy as a major industry.

But then the companies that drove the evolution from comedy being a branch of light entertainment to being a slick cash-creating machine (Hat Trick and Talkback, IMO, not to mention the agents who were perhaps even more a force for evil) were both up and running before the phrase was coined. No?

[Neil]

Was the phrase born of Newman & Baddiel playing Wembley or is that myth?

I'm interested to know this too, anyone remember when it started?  Was the term bandied about when The Mary Whitehouse Experience was on the telly, or was it only after Newman and Baddiel In Pieces?

That SOTCAA Boosh article mentions that Vic Reeves Big Night Out was championed by one section of the music press, and fiercely slated by the other.  That makes me wonder if the same thing would ever happen these days.  From various threads on here I get the impression that critics won't mercilessly slag a show unless they're absolutely sure people are going to cheer in recognition.  It's like the British Comedy Awards and the way they'll pick on a safe target like 'Orrible rather than something like Nighty Night.  So the question is when did attitudes actually change?  When was the last time you remember a magzine/newspaper article going against the grain and attacking something before they knew whether or not it was safe to do so?

[Johnny Yesno]

Was the phrase born of Newman & Baddiel playing Wembley or is that myth?

I seem to remember it coming about around that time. I did like The Mary Whitehouse Experience but I remember wondering then if we were that short of decent bands.

If I was to make a comedy show I'd want it on in a slightly unfavourable slot with as little hype as possible.

I'd agree with that sentiment if it wasn't for the fact that I think The Mark Steel Lectures suffered from a lack of commitment by the BBC to put it on in a sensible slot and let people know about it. I really think it should have gone in the Comedy Zone or, at least, been given a regular slot at all.
On the other hand, Spaced had a slightly unfavourable slot and little hype but I was pointed towards it by a mate and I'm bloody glad I was.
I guess Peep Show series one is the most recent example of what you're on about.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Peep Show had pretty good press, apart from a couple of the tabloids. All the broadsheets reviews were very favourable, and were encouraging people to go and watch it.

The same goes for Pheonix Nights series one. They both had quiet starts, and then became popular (PN more so) by the second series. Cue irritating people like me reminding people that I was watching it before all you plebs, etc.

[Munday's Chylde]

When was the last time you remember a magzine/newspaper article going against the grain and attacking something before they knew whether or not it was safe to do so?

Do you remember Fast Show Night? There was a tv critic on there, I think it might even have been AAGill of all souls, who said something along the lines of "My premiere review of the fast show is one of those reviews I still sometimes wake up in a cold sweat about." - he hadn't liked the show and had really done a hatchett job on it - now he was appearing on Fast Show Night and basically apologising and saying how much he regretted his initial impression. It struck me as an odd thing at the time.

[Ambient Sheep]

Just got to thinking about this after a discussion in the Monkey Dust thread.  What does everyone remember about it?  How did you feel about it then, and would you feel differently if it happened these days?  Did it signal a genuine change in attitudes towards comedy, or was it a cynical way of generating more money?  Did the like of the NME cook the whole thing up just so they could promote comedians as rock stars and appeal to more people?

To answer your questions:

I remember thinking that - although probably an exaggeration - it was a serious comparison.  Comedy really was taking off in a big way at that time and things looked promising.

I felt fairly good about it at the time, although a little wary of the pretentiousness of the catchphrase itself.  I would certainly feel differently if somebody tried to claim something similar today.

It signalled a genuine change, in my opinion.

No doubt the NME revelled in the opportunity to broaden their coverage a bit, but I don't think they cooked the whole thing up as such.  If they did, well then they did it well enough for me not to notice.

To answer a question in one of your other posts, I *think* it may have been kicking around during the TV MWE, but I'm not sure.  As you suspect, it was definitely going by the time N&B did Wembley, which at the time was seen as A Good Thing.  At least by me.  It all went downhill after that, though.

[Paaaaul]

Was the phrase born of Newman & Baddiel playing Wembley or is that myth?

I'm 100% sure that it was the case. I'm 90% sure that it was the eNeME that coined it, as they were covering a lot of the resurgent live comedy stuff then.
And I'm 75% water.

[chav]

Time for newspaper database searches - Caitlin Moran appears to be the first to use it in the Times, in July 1993 - "Comedy is the new rock and roll? I've been told this six times in the past two weeks". That certainly puts it before the Wembley outing for History Today, which was - for fact fans - December 10, 1993. Another search for Newman, Baddiel and Wembley has produced this bit of gossip from "Pandora" (The Independent, June 30, 1998)

COMIC PAUL Merton was in expansive mood the other day at the launch of a new biography of Tony Hancock held on Wardour Street, praising the late comedian to the skies. But his sense of humour began to fail when he got onto the subject of comic rivals Rob Newman and David Baddiel. "Newman and Baddiel never sold out Wembley Arena," Merton - who usually plays far smaller comedy venues - informed those gathered around him. "It was only a third full. It was only their PR people that said it was sold out."

The search also turned up a few features on Sean Lock, that's good. 'Cos on the nght he was, of course...

[Neil]

...not bitter.

Chav, check your PM's please!  Should be a link at the top of the page.

Fascinating info there, huge thanks.  Any chance of posting up the full articles you mentioned?  I loved Caitlin Moran on Naked City.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

When was the last time you remember a magzine/newspaper article going against the grain and attacking something before they knew whether or not it was safe to do so?

Do you remember Fast Show Night? There was a tv critic on there, I think it might even have been AAGill of all souls, who said something along the lines of "My premiere review of the fast show is one of those reviews I still sometimes wake up in a cold sweat about." - he hadn't liked the show and had really done a hatchett job on it - now he was appearing on Fast Show Night and basically apologising and saying how much he regretted his initial impression. It struck me as an odd thing at the time.

Oh God, I hate it when people do that - it suggests that they see the critic's job as *predicting* the success of something, rather than just saying what they think. It's like all those music papers circa 1999 who started apologising for giving Be Here Now by Oasis five star reviews two years earlier. 'Sorry everyone, we were wrong!' they all said. FUCK OFF.

I thought 'comedy is the new rock 'n' roll' simply referred to comedians writing their own material, like singer/songwriters. Although that arguably goes back to Billy Connolly and Jasper Carrott in the 70s. I suppose the early 90s was when comedians became blatantly marketed as pin-ups, although I remember someone arguing that the 'McDonaldsification' of comedy  started around 1988 when places like Jongleurs went mainstream.

[butnut]

If I was to make a comedy show I'd want it on in a slightly unfavourable slot with as little hype as possible.

I'd agree with that sentiment if it wasn't for the fact that I think The Mark Steel Lectures suffered from a lack of commitment by the BBC to put it on in a sensible slot and let people know about it. I really think it should have gone in the Comedy Zone or, at least, been given a regular slot at all.
On the other hand, Spaced had a slightly unfavourable slot and little hype but I was pointed towards it by a mate and I'm bloody glad I was.
I guess Peep Show series one is the most recent example of what you're on about.

Oi - I've got your number, and any more abusive terms like the one you've used will be dealt with in the severest terms possibe ;-)

Yes - But at least Mark Steel's show has got a second series. But I agree, everyone should be watching it. Being a flash git, I've only watched it via the medium of the internet, but is it true that the BBC fucked around with the broadcast times of the 1st series on BBC 2, meaning that it's picked up virtually no viewers?

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

I heard that Janet Street-Porter coined the phrase. I only heard, mind.

I recall Andrew "view by appointment" Collings using it in an early 90s Select article - perhaps that was posted on the old board?

[alan strang]

I recall Andrew "view by appointment" Collings using it in an early 90s Select article - perhaps that was posted on the old board?

http://www.angelfire.com/super/sotcaabits/babylon.html

Bloody good article that.

[Darrell]

http://www.angelfire.com/super/sotcaabits/babylon.html

Completely unrelated, but was just enjoying the forum archive again.

Subject: Re: Who for Doctor Who?
Posted By Simon Harries on Fri Jul 21 10:32:09 BST 2000:

Christoper Ecclestone, Richard E.Grant.
Christ, I remember writing comments like this in letters to Dr Who Monthly
fifteen years ago.

Bloody hell!

[alan strang]

Well to be fair that was a bloody long thread - someone was bound to make a correct guess at some point. I'm glad it was Simon Harries though.

[TJ]

That SOTCAA Boosh article mentions that Vic Reeves Big Night Out was championed by one section of the music press, and fiercely slated by the other.  That makes me wonder if the same thing would ever happen these days.

That was true of Lee and Herring too, giving rise to the "right on the cusp of the brilliant/shite interface" exchange in the radio series of "Fist Of Fun".


Thing is, what were Cook/Moore and The Pythons if not closely aligned to the rock scene?

[chav]

AA GIll & The Fast Show - if it was him who was on the clip show, then he's correct about not liking it - here's a bit from a review he penned on Feb 25, 1996. If it really was he who regretted his initial dislike, he was a bit late to the party - this was series 2.

'The editor of this section has been going on and on at me to watch The Fast Show (Friday, BBC2). "Funniest thing I've ever seen. Laughed so much I had to spin-dry the velour slip-covers." Well, he's just spent two weeks going back to school, so I suppose that is something of an excuse. But when both The Spectator and Loaded agree that The Fast Show is the best thing since the last best thing, it makes me feel a bit out of the loop. I tried, I smiled, I even snorted once or twice. But that was it. My editor says I don't understand. People always say that when you don't laugh at their jokes. "You don't understand you see, Boutros Boutros-Ghali is really funny." Yes, dear.

'The joke in The Fast Show is "the joke". It's repetition. They do the same piece of panto pastiche over and over, and the laughter accumulates as the audience is made to feel they've become insiders. "Here, here, look at this bit. This is really funny. Boutros Boutros-Ghali, see? Killer, brilliant." It isn't the funniest thing on television; The Long Johns (Wednesday, C4) are. John Bird and John Fortune have been the funniest things on television for most of my life. The memory of a show they did in the 1960s about visiting an Oxford don still makes me giggle. Wit and parody have been remorselessly downgraded by Tristans, who shake their heads about satire but actually commission jokes and pastiche. Wit is aimed, has a point and a target. But a joke is a fart. It affects everybody with a nose, regardless. Of course, people who tell jokes say wit is humour that doesn't make you laugh. Actually, wit is humour that doesn't smell.'

Further clues are provided in this piece, puff for the start of Dilbery & Futurama on Sky 1 (Times, Sept 18, 1999)

'Genuinely original programmes are a minefield for critics. Last Saturday's BBC2 documentary about The Fast Show confronted two poor wretches with their scathing early reviews of the massively popular series. A.A. Gill of The Sunday Times was unrepentant, but they had both got it terribly wrong.

'Mercifully I was not reviewing when that show started, so I did not have to get my head round a strange new format, deciding instantly if it worked or "had legs". Cult shows, like cat-fleas, tend to creep up on you. I discovered The Fast Show while idly channel-flipping.'

Maybe it was not Gill who begged forgiveness but the other one. What's this above about a "strange, new format"? What, a series of sketches? Very novel.

How much of the mainstreaming of comedy is down to catchphrase-ery? WHen it was new comedy that came to be quited in office,s not old stuff like Python.

[Ben Ordinary]

AA Gill definately was the one who had changed his mind on the thing as far as I remember. I suspect I've lost my tape with the full Fast Show Night on when I moved house a few years back though.

[Z/Sb]

For me, "comedy was the new rock 'n' roll" with the arrival of Vic & Bob's "Big Night Out", closely followed by the "Mary Whitehouse Experience" and John Shuttleworth. And, to an extent, Harry Enfield. Those late 80s/early 90s were just fantastic times for comedy and signalled the end of what was known as the "alternative" comedy scene.
I'm not saying "alternative" comedy wasn't funny or even that Vic, Bob, TMWE, John Shuttleworth, etc, aren't "alternative" but it's a well known fact that when these guys came along, the death of the left-wing, politically-correct "alternative" Ben Elton-type scene was imminent and very much welcomed at the time. It's hard to believe now, maybe, but Newman & Baddiel and Vic & Bob were THE comedy gods back in the day which was around 1991-1992. God, how I fucking worshipped them (and Fry & Laurie). They were just so different and refreshing after almost a decade of Rik Mayall & Ben Elton shows (nothing wrong with them but a change was needed and it happened).

It all started to go a bit wrong when the likes of the NME and Select Magazine would shove the "Fast Show", "Shooting Stars" and "League of Gentlemen" down our throats and Harry Enfield became totally unfunny. Seemed by the mid-90s, people only watched Enfield's show to catch Paul Whitehouse. In my opinion, "The Fast Show" and "Shooting Stars" kind of killed the scene, in a way, because of their over-reliance on catchphrases and obvious barely-written comedy scripts.

The Coogan/Morris/Iannucci gang were the ones who became "the new rock 'n' roll" around the mid-90s. I think they eventually stole the show and, after The Day Today, Alan Partridge and Brasseye, we eventually got, what I believe to be, one of the most amazing comedy shows ever: The Office. Amazing because it's difficult to see what's funny (though it is sometimes) and also because it was so massively popular unlike the Steve Coogan shows which, although a lot funnier overall, had a cult audience rather than a large mainstream audience which the Office obviously did and became a world-wide success to boot.

I'll shut up now 'cause I'm going on a bit and it's not as if I'm writing an essay...

Just one more thing, though... I'd say that Jonothan Ross and "The Word" figured highly in this whole "comedy is the new rock 'n' roll" thing. They were as much a part of that Vic & Bob/Mary Whitehouse scene and so was the indie music of the time such as Happy Mondays, Jesus Jones, toytown techno, etc...

[Neil]

The Coogan/Morris/Iannucci gang were the ones who became "the new rock 'n' roll" around the mid-90s. I think they eventually stole the show and, after The Day Today, Alan Partridge and Brasseye, we eventually got, what I believe to be, one of the most amazing comedy shows ever: The Office. Amazing because it's difficult to see what's funny (though it is sometimes) and also because it was so massively popular unlike the Steve Coogan shows which, although a lot funnier overall, had a cult audience rather than a large mainstream audience which the Office obviously did and became a world-wide success to boot.

Eh?  What does the popularity of the show have to do with whether or not it's better than Brass Eye or The Day Today (which it clearly isn't.)  I mean, I can see what you're getting at in some respects, it's great when something genuinely brilliant comedy show gets the recognition it deserves, but when it's just a decent sitcom (which is all The Office is) that generates so much over-the-top silliness then it says more about the quality of everything else that's around, surely?  

I don't reall understand the comment about it being difficult to see what's funny about The Office either, if you think that then why does it make it a better show?  Could you not say the same about Brass Eye and The Day Today anyway, I can recall stories about people thinking both were real (including the Edmonds bit in Moral Decline, even with the moustache!)

[RFT]

"Amazing" isn't necessarily a compliment- it's an expression of surprise...

I read that as the office being amaxing in the sense of the amount of plaudits it got in relation to what were actually better shows.

[Ciarán2]

I remember Select doing an article on "right-on" comedy in 1993, and I'm certain it was there I first heard the "Comedy is the new rock and roll" thing mentioned. They also used to take the mick out of the phrase regularly around that time. Probably Graham Linehan's doing.

[Z/Sb]

I don't reall understand the comment about it being difficult to see what's funny about The Office either, if you think that then why does it make it a better show?  Could you not say the same about Brass Eye and The Day Today anyway, I can recall stories about people thinking both were real (including the Edmonds bit in Moral Decline, even with the moustache!)

Noooooooo... You got me all wrong and I don't really understand why!
I was on about the "comedy is the new rock 'n' roll" thing. Ricky Gervais has become some kind of household name and has a huge following who worship the ground he treads on (look on imdb and amazon for the evidence). I've only ever seen him in "The Office" and I never ever found "The Office" very funny - I regard it as a great show but not a very funny show and I can't stand those who say it's hilarious when there's a billion shows out there a thousand times funnier and could truly be described as hilarious (Morecambe & Wise and "Rising Damp" for a start). I was just mentioning "The Office" in regards to the phenomenon it caused  and the amount of followers it has/had in the media and in public. Ricky Gervais has achieved a level of fame and popularity which the likes of Steve Coogan, Chris Morris, Vic & Bob, even Harry Enfield, just haven't reached or have taken far longer to reach.
When people from all over the world and all walks of life are quoting your characters and talking about your show like they are (or was) about "The Office" then I'd say that it deserves a mention in this thread no matter how much I, you or anyone else finds Ricky Gervais and "The Office" funny or unfunny.

If you work in an office, like my girlfriend does (and I used to too), you may not find "The Office" that funny and too realistic. My girlfriend finds it depressing and she thinks most of the characters are totally unlikeable (that's her opinion and she refuses to watch it ever again) and David Brent reminds her of some cunt who works at her place. I love the show but don't think it's the funniest show around and think people overrate it as a comedy. I find "Brasseye", "The Day Today" and the Alan Partridge shows far more laugh out loud hilarious (possibly due to their absurdity) than "The Office" but there's no denying that the show is brilliant and unique. That's my opinion.

I never ever said that "The Office" was better than any of those other shows I mentioned - that would be the last thing I'd ever say and it wouldn't be true for me. So I think we got some crossed wires somewhere...

Reading your response again, I can't believe how wrong you got me in regards to what I said about "The Office".

[Neil]

Okay fair enough, apologies if I took you the wrong way, I'm trying to skim through this stuff today as I've got a lot of work to do on the site.  I saw "amazing" and clearly took it out of context.

Anyway, TJ's post made me remember something interesting I found yesterday when I was looking up the phrase in the thread title.  Actually, there's some bloody fascinating stuff in here so apologies for the size of the quote:

Cast your eyes down the composing credits on this peerless and long
overdue list of classic tracks and one name will strike you time and time
again, mine. I wrote them all, words and music(*). There was a time during the
Goodies hey day - or rather hey years - during the mid 1970s, when snide little
journalists were in the habit of referring to me as a "frustrated rock and
roller". Well folks in 1976 a reputable rock magazine - if that isn't a
contradiction in terms - placed the Goodies as the sixth best-selling group in
Britain, and - more to the point - I, W.E. Oddie, was the fifth most successful
songwriter in the land. Frustrated? I think not! Not in any sense of the word.
In those days we even had the Goodies groupies, who insisted on expressing
their admiration of Black Pudding Bertha as enthusiastically as the fans of any
velvet-trousered heavy metal icon of the time.
"Comedy is the new rock and roll", announce the 1990's equivalents of
the same snide little journalists. Oh yeah! So show me the present day comedy
group that has had five top twenty singles in one year like the Goodies did in
'75. Three Lions in my booty, say I. Eat your heart out Tony Ferrino.
The irrefutable truth is that The Goodies were the first, the only, and
most successful comedy rockers ever, even if I have to say it myself ('cos no
one else will). "Er what about the Monkees?" I hear you mutter. Yes, but their
records weren't meant to be funny. (Were they?) They make us all laugh now, I
grant you - and so would we, if we were distasteful enough to make a comeback,
when we're old enough to be the Spice Girl's grandads - but their music was
supposed to be taken seriously.
"And, of course, the Goodies' music wasn't", you presumably deduce.
Well think again Sherlock!
The fact is, you may well be surprised - or disappointed, or indeed
utterly gob-smacked - to learn that my song writing and compositional
endeavours were fuelled by no end of musical pretensions (not to say
pretentiousness). Did you know, for example, that the rhythm track for the
Funky Gibbon was influenced by Miles Davis' fusion-experiments, which were, in
turn, based on the fragmented-licks approach of Sly and the Family Stone? Well
they were. Indeed, so aggravated was I by the drummer's inability to get the
right feel, that I ended up playing it myself by banging on the closed lid of
the piano with a rolled up newspaper. It's true. Listen closely and you will
hear the unmistakable sound of Evening Standard on Steinway. Or lend a
discerning ear to Baby Samba, and you will surely appreciate the Roland Kirk
influence on the tin whistle solo (played by me, of course). Not to mention the
inescapable aural evidence that the Goodies version of Wild Thing is a tribute
to Jimi Hendrix (not The Troggs). Indeed, rumour has it that the vomit on which
Jimi choked was actually induced by hearing Tim Brooke-Taylor's invitation to
"Come on and hold me tight". I know how Jimi felt; Tim's vocals often had the
same effect on me (hence the true inspiration for Sick Man Blues).
Yes, you bet I took my music seriously. Listening to these tracks now
brings back many memories of hours in the studio. I recall the lonely nights I
spent replacing Tim and Graeme's backing vocals by double tracking myself, and
then putting my voice through a harmoniser so that they wouldn't recognise me
and get all hurt and sulky. "Yes, of course that was you two singing in perfect
thirds." Not.