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Star Wars: Young Han Solo

Started by Bad Ambassador, June 21, 2017, 11:40:57 AM

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Ant Farm Keyboard

Quote from: mothman on December 31, 2017, 02:51:03 PM
The reputation of the Prequel Trilogy might have been salvaged (or easier to salvage, anyway) if they'd gotten a decent actor in for Anakin in II and III: discuss.

Natalie Portman gave a terrible performance in both of these films. But Portman had already shown that she could be a decent actress, so her woodenness was credited to her co-star, the script and the direction. And other decent actors such as Liam Neeson, Samuel L. Jackson, Christopher Lee and Terrence Stamp also look terribly constipated. The only ones who managed to convey something were Ewan McGregor, Temuera Morrison and Ian McDarmid, mostly McDarmid actually.

colacentral

I think there are a few elements to The Phantom Menace that are incredibly poorly thought through, and set the following two films up to fail.

First of all, Anakin as a child is too normal and too nice. He's a slave but the only downside to that seems to be that he's poor and he can't leave Tattooine without being blown up. Well I can't leave Earth and it doesn't bother me that much. He should have been chained up, doing slave labour or something. Look at Magneto as a child in the holocaust in the opening scene of the first X-Men Movie, and the way through his trauma he moves the metal gates. Something like that would have been appropriate for explaining why Anakin would grow up to be a cunt, while allowing the audience sympathy with him. As it stands, it makes no sense that Anakin would turn from being fairly nice and normal (if shrill and annoying) to pure evil as an adult.

The other problem is that Obi Wan and Qui Gon willingly take him with them after agreeing it with their mother. If Anakin's mother had been killed in The Phantom Menace rather than Attack of the Clones, it would have mirrored A New Hope, which Lucas fucking loves usually. And Anakin could have snuck aboard Obi Wan's ship or something after realising he had no reason to stay on Tattooine. Something along those lines which wouldn't make Obi Wan and Qui Gon look stupid, while giving them a better motive for feeling some responsibility towards him once they realise his mother is dead, rather than taking him based on his midichlorian count.

Another good example of how Anakin could have been convincingly portrayed to be a child who grows up to be Darth Vader, funnily enough, is in Rhian Johnson's film Looper. Unlike Anakin, the child in that is a bit more powerful, a bit younger, and a bit more emotionally disturbed. It makes perfect sense that he would grow up to be the villain of the future that Bruce Willis' character wants to kill, and it makes sense that the characters would struggle with the decision to kill the child regardless of his future because they feel sympathy for him, and that makes the audience feel sympathy for him. None of that is present in The Phantom Menace, and consequently the sudden turn in Hayden Christensen's Anakin is limp and unconvincing.

SavageHedgehog

Christensen was pretty good in Shattered Glass. Not the best performance in the film, maybe not the most difficult role to play (vapid and kind of creepy), but he held his own in it fairly well.

Quote from: colacentral on January 02, 2018, 11:45:11 AM
Look at Magneto as a child in the holocaust in the opening scene of the first X-Men Movie, and the way through his trauma he moves the metal gates. Something like that would have been appropriate for explaining why Anakin would grow up to be a cunt, while allowing the audience sympathy with him.

Or they could have used character, rather than action, to explain Anakin's tendencies. Shmi Skywalker is the blandest character in the series. She is just this 'generic mum' person, and she is incredibly tranquil about her life as a slave.

It might have been better if she was resentful of authority figures, and she filled Anakin's head with revenge fantasies.

MojoJojo

Quote from: Default to the negative on January 02, 2018, 12:13:24 PM
Or they could have used character, rather than action, to explain Anakin's tendencies. Shmi Skywalker is the blandest character in the series. She is just this 'generic mum' person, and she is incredibly tranquil about her life as a slave.

That is a good point. Total background character. I've just remembered the miraculous conception bollocks as well.

(Also, this might be a bit nit-picky, but why didn't Obi Wan ever go back and get her? Sure they didn't have any money when they got Anakin, but he must have had a moment he could fetch her before AOTC?)

Fake edit - maybe ignore that last comment, I don't want to sidetrack this into nitpicking the prequels.

Dr Rock

Quote from: colacentral on January 02, 2018, 11:45:11 AM
I think there are a few elements to The Phantom Menace that are incredibly poorly thought through, and set the following two films up to fail.

First of all, Anakin as a child is too normal and too nice. He's a slave but the only downside to that seems to be that he's poor and he can't leave Tattooine without being blown up. Well I can't leave Earth and it doesn't bother me that much. He should have been chained up, doing slave labour or something. Look at Magneto as a child in the holocaust in the opening scene of the first X-Men Movie, and the way through his trauma he moves the metal gates. Something like that would have been appropriate for explaining why Anakin would grow up to be a cunt, while allowing the audience sympathy with him. As it stands, it makes no sense that Anakin would turn from being fairly nice and normal (if shrill and annoying) to pure evil as an adult.

The other problem is that Obi Wan and Qui Gon willingly take him with them after agreeing it with their mother. If Anakin's mother had been killed in The Phantom Menace rather than Attack of the Clones, it would have mirrored A New Hope, which Lucas fucking loves usually. And Anakin could have snuck aboard Obi Wan's ship or something after realising he had no reason to stay on Tattooine. Something along those lines which wouldn't make Obi Wan and Qui Gon look stupid, while giving them a better motive for feeling some responsibility towards him once they realise his mother is dead, rather than taking him based on his midichlorian count.

Another good example of how Anakin could have been convincingly portrayed to be a child who grows up to be Darth Vader, funnily enough, is in Rhian Johnson's film Looper. Unlike Anakin, the child in that is a bit more powerful, a bit younger, and a bit more emotionally disturbed. It makes perfect sense that he would grow up to be the villain of the future that Bruce Willis' character wants to kill, and it makes sense that the characters would struggle with the decision to kill the child regardless of his future because they feel sympathy for him, and that makes the audience feel sympathy for him. None of that is present in The Phantom Menace, and consequently the sudden turn in Hayden Christensen's Anakin is limp and unconvincing.

Just to say I agree completely with this post and the ideas in it.

Dr Rock

Quote from: MojoJojo on January 02, 2018, 12:33:27 PM
(Also, this might be a bit nit-picky, but why didn't Obi Wan ever go back and get her? Sure they didn't have any money when they got Anakin, but he must have had a moment he could fetch her before AOTC?)

Fake edit - maybe ignore that last comment, I don't want to sidetrack this into nitpicking the prequels.

Sorry to ignore your fake edit, but yes, I've read that before and it doesn't make sense that in all that time nobody went back and saved Anakin's mother from being a slave.

They could have made that into a part of the story.

'Master... I want to take a detachment of clones to Tatooine to save my mother.'

'Steady yourself Anakin. Still your feelings. It is not the place of the Jedi to interfere in such affairs. And need I remind you that the council are worried you concern yourself too much with these matters.'

'I... understand, master.'

And that would help to explain Anakin's frustration with Obi-Wan and the Jedi in general.

Custard

The prequels could have been brilliant. Though I'm still not overly convinced Anakin's story needed telling, as it was only ever gonna take away from Vader's mystique

I actually don't think ROTS is as bad as the other two, but it still has massive problems. The dialogue is comically bad throughout. "He killed...YOUNGLINGS"

I doubt anyone with any sense really considers them canon. Not when you can easily just pretend they never happened. Though I knew someone once who'd get irate if anyone dared call them shit. He genuinely considered them great. As good as the OT. He was a bit racist and had four teeth though, so you know

Custard

Btw, I reckon Redlettermedia worked out exactly how this film will go, beat for beat, over a year ago - https://youtu.be/kjEd3DpH_e0

Quote from: Shameless Custard on January 02, 2018, 01:43:43 PM
The dialogue is comically bad throughout. "He killed...YOUNGLINGS"

The stupid thing about that term is that when Anakin tells Padme about the sand people, he says 'The women and the children too.'

So obviously the word 'children' exists in the Star Wars universe.

Replies From View

Quote from: Dr Rock on December 31, 2017, 02:56:25 PM
Totally agree. And he would need better lines too, but those two things would make a world of difference.  They should have cast someone who either gave off the right vibes, or could act appropriately, and written him saying things that made you believe he had the seeds of Darth Vader in him. They didn't.

In other words, they should have been completely different films.  That's the small difference the prequel trilogy would have benefited from.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Replies From View on January 02, 2018, 03:10:04 PM
In other words, they should have been completely different films.  That's the small difference the prequel trilogy would have benefited from.

No, the plot structure, the story of Anakin falling to the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader, would be exactly the same, so they would hardly be completely different films. I'd change a few other things too though (ie no Jar-Jar, don't have Anakin build C-3PO, real sets whenever possible, and real stormtroopers, no Jango Fett is all the first bunch of Stormtroopers). But those are minor changes.

Anyway this is supposed to be about the young Han Solo movie idea. Which I reckon will probably be as monumentally shit as TLJ but with fewer SW fans who give a shit anymore.

mothman

We know the Jedi were meant to have become a bit stuck in their ways, a bit incular, and that their power and influence had waned. But how much is that ever really explored? Instead we just see them being bastards to Anakin right from the get-go. He's too old to join the Jedi programme. Oh, the guy who recommended him is dead? OK then he can come in. But we'll have someone who's only just qualified himself be his trainer. Now he's a teenager, lets manage tro totally miss that he's having unJedilike thoughts, and fancying girls, and murdering sandpeople just because they killed his mother. OK, now hes a great warrior and we should have him on the Council as the rep of somebody we're not sure we trust anymore, buyt just to put the boot in one more time we'll deny him the title of Jedi Master.

If they'd started with him as a teenager and "already a pilot when we met" who is so striong in the Force the Jedi have to try to train him, but he's too rebellious - and Obi-Wan out of his element as a teacher - then I think you're getting somewhere. Let his relationship with the mother of his children be a real bone of contention rather then something every Jedi in the Galaxy manages to miss.

Replies From View

Quote from: Dr Rock on January 02, 2018, 03:21:13 PM

No, the plot structure, the story of Anakin falling to the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader, would be exactly the same, so they would hardly be completely different films.

They would still be shit films though.  Which I thought you were trying to fix with your suggestions.

phantom_power

It seems that some Lego sets have leaked. It is a bit disappointing that there seems to be Tie Fighters and Storm Troopers and the like. This seemed the ideal time to have a Star Wars film that wasn't linked to The Empire and all that stuff.

Replies From View

Quote from: phantom_power on January 05, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
It seems that some Lego sets have leaked. It is a bit disappointing that there seems to be Tie Fighters and Storm Troopers and the like. This seemed the ideal time to have a Star Wars film that wasn't linked to The Empire and all that stuff.

Maybe they're just around the place.  Like dogs.  You could have a spin-off of the Beethoven films that still had dogs in it without them being the main feature.

Is Wookie a dog?

phantom_power

I hope so (to your first point)

buzby

Quote from: phantom_power on January 05, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
It seems that some Lego sets have leaked. It is a bit disappointing that there seems to be Tie Fighters and Storm Troopers and the like. This seemed the ideal time to have a Star Wars film that wasn't linked to The Empire and all that stuff.
Part of his current backstory is he was a cadet in the Imperial Academy before being kicked out for stopping an officer whipping a Wookiee (which turns out to be Chewbacca). If they are going with that part of the canon, TIE fighters and Stormtroopers are unavoidable.

Dr Rock

Quote from: phantom_power on January 05, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
It seems that some Lego sets have leaked. It is a bit disappointing that there seems to be Tie Fighters and Storm Troopers and the like. This seemed the ideal time to have a Star Wars film that wasn't linked to The Empire and all that stuff.

But they introduced The First Order as a new threat in TFA - but they still used Stormtroopers, and Star Destroyers and now we see in a film that takes place just seconds after the previous (Rey & Luke) or maybe a few days (rebels on the run) that they have AT-ATs too. Disney know that's what fans want to see, so they are too scared of bringing in different stuff. TFA presented The First Order in a slightly different light to The Empire, A 'Fifth Reich' on the rise. Now they are totally The Empire again. And this all happened in a couple of days, after the First Order lost a major battle and their big weapon was destroyed. Didn't stop them one bit. Seems like these new films aren't going to be a trilogy in any meaningful sense, they'll just keep churning them out until people get bored. In the next film there will be some resolution to Kylo - probably - but apart from that, nothing can change, Disney want this universe as it is, and can't keep saying The Empire/First Order (were the words 'First Order' even used in this film?) have been totally defeated when we know they are coming back in the next film, because you gotta have Lego Stormtroopers.

phantom_power

Quote from: buzby on January 05, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
Part of his current backstory is he was a cadet in the Imperial Academy before being kicked out for stopping an officer whipping a Wookiee (which turns out to be Chewbacca). If they are going with that part of the canon, TIE fighters and Stormtroopers are unavoidable.

I don't read the wider Star Wars universe stuff so wasn't aware of this

Dr Rock

Quote from: buzby on January 05, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
Part of his current backstory is he was a cadet in the Imperial Academy before being kicked out for stopping an officer whipping a Wookiee (which turns out to be Chewbacca). If they are going with that part of the canon, TIE fighters and Stormtroopers are unavoidable.

That's not canon* (anymore, if it ever was - and I bet it won't be in any 'Young Han Solo' movies). But why would any of that mean in the Disney movies, after the Empire was seemingly defeated in ROTJ, that stormtroopers and TIE fighters would be inevitable in events that take place 30 years later?

*unless it says it is in some current Han Solo info on any offical SW site.

phantom_power

Quote from: Dr Rock on January 05, 2018, 01:46:35 PM
But they introduced The First Order as a new threat in TFA - but they still used Stormtroopers, and Star Destroyers and now we see in a film that takes place just seconds after the previous (Rey & Luke) or maybe a few days (rebels on the run) that they have AT-ATs too. Disney know that's what fans want to see, so they are too scared of bringing in different stuff. TFA presented The First Order in a slightly different light to The Empire, A 'Fifth Reich' on the rise. Now they are totally The Empire again. And this all happened in a couple of days, after the First Order lost a major battle and their big weapon was destroyed. Didn't stop them one bit. Seems like these new films aren't going to be a trilogy in any meaningful sense, they'll just keep churning them out until people get bored. In the next film there will be some resolution to Kylo - probably - but apart from that, nothing can change, Disney want this universe as it is, and can't keep saying The Empire/First Order (were the words 'First Order' even used in this film?) have been totally defeated when we know they are coming back in the next film, because you gotta have Lego Stormtroopers.

I am fine with that in the main saga as it is as much about The Empire/First Order against the Rebellion/Resistance as it is about The Skywalkers. I thought these side films could be a chance to branch out a bit and tell some different stories. It appears that, as Buzby said, this is already part of Solo's back story then it is unavoidable I suppose

Dr Rock

Oh I see what you mean - if Han being ex-Imperial Cadet is currently canon, Stormtroopers etc will probably be in any Young Han Solo movies.

In this deleted scene, Han mentions that he recognised Finn's stormtrooper boots. Which supports the idea of him having an Imperial history in the new canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB3G2hkn278

Glebe

Quote from: Default to the negative on January 05, 2018, 02:15:54 PMIn this deleted scene, Han mentions that he recognised Finn's stormtrooper boots. Which supports the idea of him having an Imperial history in the new canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB3G2hkn278

They should have left that in. Classic Solo cheekiness.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Default to the negative on January 05, 2018, 02:15:54 PM
In this deleted scene, Han mentions that he recognised Finn's stormtrooper boots. Which supports the idea of him having an Imperial history in the new canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB3G2hkn278

He dresses as a Stormtrooper in SW, and has encountered a lot, and I think a lot of people could recognize his shiny white boots were Stormtroopers.


Yeah I know a deleted scene with a throwaway reference is not solid proof of anything. But there are other points to consider: where did Han learn to fly and how does he know all these tricks for evading and outsmarting the Empire?

He could have learned it all on the smuggling scene, sure. But I think it's equally possible that he was part of the Empire for a while.

Dr Rock

I think this idea goes way back to soon after SW came out, I read it in the 70s UK Star Wars comic I think. But it's never been properly established, unless it has been recently - and I'm not accepting anything Disney has done to SW. Does he seem the type that would have signed up for the Empire though? I can't see him happily taking orders, or going for a job that would require that. He's a scoundrel. I'll probably ignore anything that is established in any Young Han Solo movies anyway, so as it's never mentioned in any of the OTs, it will only ever be a possibility to me.

Hmm, in SW when he's dressed as a Stormtrooper on the Death Star and pretending to be an officer on the intercom before blasting it and saying 'boring conversation anyway' he didn't show any signs of knowing how to impersonate how anyone who was ever an Imperial Cadet or whatever would talk in such a situation.

Mister Six

Quote from: Dr Rock on January 05, 2018, 01:53:44 PM
Oh I see what you mean - if Han being ex-Imperial Cadet is currently canon, Stormtroopers etc will probably be in any Young Han Solo movies.

Also, he's a smuggler. So at the very least you'd expect him to be sneaking by Imperial blockades and conning stormtroopers that there's no cargo in his hold.