Hari Kondabolu - The Problem With Apu

[Petey Pate]

New documentary by Hari Kondabolu about how much he hates Apu from The Simpsons and how the character has shaped representations of Indians in American media.

Here's the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGzvEqBvkP8

[BritishHobo]

If this is the person who wrote an article on the subject a few years back, it did not get a good reception on here. Which surprised and disappointed me. It felt like the iconic nature of the show meant people were automatically shutting the article down without any consideration of its points - when, to me, it seems like a pretty reasonable argument. It's hardly fringe SJW stuff either - Harold and Kumar was pointing out the use of 'Thank you, come again!' and the comedy Indian accent as a stereo Indian folks in America suffer from over a decade ago, and that was a daft comedy where two stoners ride a cheetah on the way to their ultimate goal of product placement.

[Glebe]

It feels like the Americans get away with racial sterotypes more than the British to me.

[Petey Pate]

If this is the person who wrote an article on the subject a few years back, it did not get a good reception on here.

I take it that you're referring to this? Kondabolu is not the author but he's interviewed in it.  In case people aren't aware, Kondabolu is a stand up comedian (and a pretty good one).

Apu being voiced by a white man is problematic and I can understand why the character causes offence but I struggle to see any underlying hatred in its depiction.  Also in the universe of the show Apu is generally treated as an equal.  The Simpsons generally is (or was) good at using stereotypes without coming across as mean spirited.

[notjosh]

Recently watched the episode where he gets fired from the Kwik-E-Mart and it's extremely dated, with most of the humour relying on the idea that India is an impossibly distant and exotic place that's all situated up the top of the Himalayas, where everyone is doing yoga. Homer even seems surprised to find out that their food is spicy.

It's a bit like reading old Sherlock Holmes stories when the 'exotic' elements have since become familiar. Like the one where he gets a letter marked 'KKK' and we're supposed to be in suspense about what it means.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It would be unthinkable to do an apu now. But I guess familiarity over the past 20 years... and it not being obvious at first that the voice artist was white probably downplayed it a bit.

There is some sterotyping I guess. But Apu's generally a good guy in the show. It's not like that fucking awful episode where they went to China.

In a similar vein, I read a really good article on someone slagging off The Big Bang theory because of the way Raj is depicted.
https://catapult.co/stories/the-wanking-foreigner-from-the-big-bang-theory

[BritishHobo]

And of course, more dislikes than likes on the video, and comments full of people - presumably most of them not Indian - telling everyone in the video to shut up, as if they're the strawman of a white SJW looking for things to be offended by, rather than, you know, a pretty big list of Indian actors from major franchises talking about their real experiences. Let that be a lesson to anyone who believes the 'anti SJW' thing is all about fighting privileged white people who speak for minorities. Just comment after comment of people unwilling to listen to the experiences of Indian people, because to do so would mean dropping the black-and-white nature of their dumb internet agenda.

[Serge]

In a similar vein, I read a really good article on someone slagging off The Big Bang theory because of the way Raj is depicted.
https://catapult.co/stories/the-wanking-foreigner-from-the-big-bang-theory

Ironically, they've even had lines in 'The Big Bang Theory' where Raj is disparaging about Apu. That article is weird, though - while I think there is a valid argument that some of the stuff they attach to Raj is racist (the endless times he slags off Indian food, for example, which they obviously feel is ok because they've got the Indian character saying it) - it does seem like a weird angle to approach it from. I've never felt that Raj is sexually impotent - he's successfully slept with several women, even during his selective mutism days.

I've mentioned on here before my unease about the fact that 'The Simpsons' always goes for the most obvious stereotypes with pretty much any character from outside the US. I suppose they could just about get away with it on the basis that pretty much all of the American characters in the show are flawed too, and Homer does play up to the simplistic view of Americans as fat and stupid, but there are depths to all of the regulars that we never get to see with any non-American characters.

[selectivememory]

I like Kondabolu a lot, and I was wondering if he was ever going to get around to making this film, so it's good to see it's on the way soon. I remember him saying on his podcast last year something about how he was trying to reach out to Hank Azaria to get him involved in the documentary, but I think he was reluctant after Hari said he'd kick the shit out of him if he ever heard him doing that voice at a party (which was part of a comedy routine, it should be said, but I can see why it might put Azaria off). Seems that he wasn't able to get him to participate going by that trailer.

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that Apu is a racist caricature, even if he does have good parts to his character (and I'd agree that there's no hatred, as such, behind his portrayal), and it seems if you were an Indian-American growing up in the Nineties you probably were affected by it quite a lot.

But yeah, going by those comments (as Hobo mentioned) it's going to be hard sell for a lot of people. But I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[MojoJojo]

It would be unthinkable to do an apu now. But I guess familiarity over the past 20 years... and it not being obvious at first that the voice artist was white probably downplayed it a bit.

Nah, I remember at the time my Mum saying Apu was an example of americans being more racist than the UK. Indains aren't a significant minority in the US, and the very concept of racism is tied up[nb]phrasing![/nb] with africa and slavery while in the UK it's tied up with every culture because of how awesome the British empire was.

So she was right, and she often is.

Of course now she often rants about the poles.

[Petey Pate]

So The Simpsons directly addressed the controversy in their most recent episode, and Hari was not happy with it.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/apr/10/dont-have-a-cow-the-simpsons-response-to-apu-racism-row-criticised-as-toothless?

[ajsmith2]

So The Simpsons directly addressed the controversy in their most recent episode, and Hari was not happy with it.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/apr/10/dont-have-a-cow-the-simpsons-response-to-apu-racism-row-criticised-as-toothless?

Sorry I missed your reply here, and bumped the regular Simpsons decline thread with the same link.

[bgmnts]

The Simpsons is built on stereotypes though isn't it? Lower middle class lazy white americans, hard working indians, do-gooding but horribly repressed fundamentalist christians, fat alchies etc.

Although i guess Dr Hibbert gets a fairer shake than Apu so there is something to be said about Apu being specifically dodgy.

[A Car With No Doors]

So The Simpsons directly addressed the controversy in their most recent episode, and Hari was not happy with it.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/apr/10/dont-have-a-cow-the-simpsons-response-to-apu-racism-row-criticised-as-toothless?

Another tired publicity stunt like the character death or Homer playing Pokemon Go. As long as it takes attention away from the quality of the actual episode right?

Al Jean's also been on Twitter RTing people who think The Simpsons has delivered the final, punishing blow to 'political correctness'. Sums up the full extent of the show's ambition now: pats on the head from anybody still watching.

[BritishHobo]

And of course, more dislikes than likes on the video, and comments full of people - presumably most of them not Indian - telling everyone in the video to shut up, as if they're the strawman of a white SJW looking for things to be offended by, rather than, you know, a pretty big list of Indian actors from major franchises talking about their real experiences. Let that be a lesson to anyone who believes the 'anti SJW' thing is all about fighting privileged white people who speak for minorities. Just comment after comment of people unwilling to listen to the experiences of Indian people, because to do so would mean dropping the black-and-white nature of their dumb internet agenda.

^ this, but again

[selectivememory]

Yeah. I actually haven't seen the documentary yet, but looking at comments in response to Hari on Twitter about this, it's amazing how people are determined to misunderstand his argument just to score some anti-SJW points.

[notjosh]

Anyone else feel like Yeardley Smith has given the flattest possible delivery of the line in order to disassociate herself from the material?

Or is that just what the Simpsons actors have been doing for the last 15 years?

[ajsmith2]

Yeah. I actually haven't seen the documentary yet, but looking at comments in response to Hari on Twitter about this, it's amazing how people are determined to misunderstand his argument just to score some anti-SJW points.

Haven't looked (and I'm not going to) but I'm guessing some variation on 'this is the funniest the Simpsons has been in YEARS' has been uttered many times already.

[Blumf]

Anyone else feel like Yeardley Smith has given the flattest possible delivery of the line in order to disassociate herself from the material?

Reminds me of the Poochie episode, that same flat tone Homer makes for his big speech.

[up_the_hampipe]

I've seen a lot of people arguing The Simpsons plays up all the lazy stereotypes, not just the Indians. But, that's not really a good thing. There were some very clever writers on that show, but they still often resorted to some tacky jokes on certain groups.

That said, a couple of my favourite Simpsons jokes are based on stereotypes, i.e. 'The Big Book of British Smiles' and the Australian Prime Minister. It's just good when they're creative. Apu always sounded like the kids at my school who used to do racist impressions of one of our Indian classmates.

[momatt]

I don't really see what the fuss is about, but I suppose it's not really for me to decide.  If lots of Indian people are upset then maybe something should be done?
I'll try to watch the documentary anyway.

Like I said in the other thread, Apu is not the only stereotype on The Simpsons.  He's not the only character voiced by an actor of a different race too.
So to be fair, they should they get rid of all the stereotype characters.  Then go through all the old shows and remove everything offensive to anyone.  It'd be a bit shit, and rather short.

[Sin Agog]

Thinking about it (rather than just blandly taking it for granted), it is a little Daily Maily painting Cletus and Apu, the respective dirt poor and immigrant characters, as baby factories.   This new age of not being allowed to just passively consume entertainment anymore is pretty trying, but that's probably 'cause we're forced to make use of a muscle that's atrophied over the years.  It's so smegging easy to take things for granted just because it's the way it's always been, but this epoch of self-analysis (if it really extends further than twitter) is pretty encouraging. 

If only there were half an hour every day when everyone can get all their unclean, racist, ableist and misogynist thoughts out of their system so they can devote the other 23 1/2 hours to being most excellent to each other.  I've got a few bones to pick with the Somalians right now, so better make it between 4.30 and 5 in the afternoon.

[Rolf Lundgren]

The other problem with the "They're all stereotypes" argument is that for most characters on the show, there are other positive representations of them in the media. It's fair enough to have a dumb, slobby cop who eats doughnuts all the time when you've got other shows depicting policemen in a more positive light. I can't think of many (any?) US TV shows in the 90s that had Indian characters to redress the balance.

[idunnosomename]

So to be fair, they should they get rid of all the stereotype characters.  Then go through all the old shows and remove everything offensive to anyone.  It'd be a bit shit, and rather short.

Yes they should do the former. By stopping making this endless stream of shit

[momatt]

Thinking about it (rather than just blandly taking it for granted), it is a little Daily Maily painting Cletus and Apu, the respective dirt poor and immigrant characters, as baby factories.

Apu and Manjula had eight kids by accident (in one go) though, rather than being shit at contraception like Cletus.  Plus they're hard working educated people.
It's the rednecks who should be pissed off at stereotyping!

The other problem with the "They're all stereotypes" argument is that for most characters on the show, there are other positive representations of them in the media.

True, but hardly The Simpsons' fault.
It's tricky to think of any Indian characters in the Western media at all (older than the last ten years), let alone positive ones.
There are loads of positive things about Apu anyway.

Yes they should do the former. By stopping making this endless stream of shit

Yup.  About 15 years ago.

[St_Eddie]

It's the rednecks who should be pissed off at stereotyping!

Yeah but they're illiterate, so they can't write in to complain.  Also, they don't own TVs.

[Isnt Anything]

So The Simpsons directly addressed the controversy in their most recent episode, and Hari was not happy with it.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/apr/10/dont-have-a-cow-the-simpsons-response-to-apu-racism-row-criticised-as-toothless?

Lisa turns to face the viewer: "It's hard to say. Something that started decades ago and was applauded and inoffensive is now politically incorrect. What can you do?"

Sorry but some of us never remember Apu being 'applauded and inoffensive'. Me and the missus have always thought his portrayal was deeply dodgy right from when the show first started.

I do think that Raj off of The Big Bang Theory is far worse though. Amazed that they thought they could get away with it and even more amazed that apparently they have.

[newbridge]

*Something happens somewhere in the world*

*Eight months pass*

So The Simpsons directly addressed the controversy in their most recent episode

Checks out.

[Blumf]

*Something happens somewhere in the world*

*Eight months pass*

Checks out.

Because the Simpsons is filmed live on the day of broadcast?

I think 8 months is about the lead time for a production cycle, possibly a bit short, you wouldn't expect a response faster than that really. You would expect a better response though.

[SavageHedgehog]

I do think that Raj off of The Big Bang Theory is far worse though. Amazed that they thought they could get away with it and even more amazed that apparently they have.

Having an Indian actor on the most popular (and highly paid) sitcom of the last decade probably sweetens the pill a bit. There is however a jaw-dropping bit in one episode where Penny impersonates Raj's accent back to him (I think she even says "Good golly!" or something). That was probably quite a while ago now though.