Hari Kondabolu - The Problem With Apu

[up_the_hampipe]

There was a bit of "no surprise there!" feedback/backlash when that anecdote of them saying they're Republicans was doing the rounds for some reason, but yes, on the whole they seem to be strangely teflon.

Not really, I see a lot of complaining about South Park on social media, mainly for the centrist "everyone's dumb" approach they take. Also the Caitlyn Jenner stuff and the mocking of the PC movement. South Park is often bothering people, but it comes and goes so quickly.

[SavageHedgehog]

"Was, for some, doing the rounds" would have been better

[Jumblegraws]

South Park, likewise, features countless minority stereotypes portrayed by white people, often with a far meaner approach, but for some reason they never get much heat for it (indeed, they seem to have a free pass from the "SJW" crowd somehow).  Apu seems relatively inoffensive in comparison.  Is it just because it's a more popular or iconic show?

South Park absolutely doesn't get a free pass from the SJW crowd (or conversely from the alt-right crowd, who apparently have largely missed the show's intentions and have now declared it "cucked"). I think the main difference is that in (roughly) the first ten years or so of SP, there was a case to be made that their aggressive use of crude stereotypes was subversively progressive in how it banged its largely-white audience over the head with the bigotry and marginalisation that hides in plain sight in their societies. That's why characters like (for instance) Big Gay Al and Timmy were applauded by prominent LGBT and disability advocacy groups respectively. Come to that, the defensiveness over Apu - who hews closer to the "model minority" tradition in contrast to the loud stereotypes of SP - could be taken as evidence of precisely the complacent indifference towards minorities that South Park were imo targeting.

The problem with Parker and Stone is that, like Ricky Gervais, they've been slow on the uptake when it comes to understanding that the minorities who previously lacked platforms in mainstream media might be resentful of white men continuing to take ownership of these issues. Unlike Gervais, however, Parker and Stone seem to be getting the message and I think a lot of the patchiness of the past couple of seasons have been down to newfound introspection and self-doubt on the matter.

[momatt]

South Park absolutely doesn't get a free pass from the SJW crowd (or conversely from the alt-right crowd, who apparently have largely missed the shows intentions and have now declared the show "cucked").

Totally not digging at you mate, but bloody hell there are a lot of new words around these issues.  Is plain English that difficult?
I barely know what any of them mean and I suspect most people using them don't either.

[imitationleather]

Totally not digging at you mate, but bloody hell there are a lot of new words around these issues.  Is plain English that difficult?
I barely know what any of them mean and I suspect most people using them don't either.

Ha, check out the cuck.

[Jumblegraws]

Totally not digging at you mate, but bloody hell there are a lot of new words around these issues.  Is plain English that difficult?
I barely know what any of them mean and I suspect most people using them don't either.

Not digging at you either, cos honestly, I love Beemo, but Google isn't that hard to use for all your "SJ-whatnow?" needs.

Although I agree that "cuck" and all its derivatives can't die soon enough, hence the square quotes, but in this case it was a direct reference to a subreddit title  https://amp.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/71zpu0/is_south_park_cucked/

Likewise, SJW is a stupid snarl-term that I mostly use ironically.

[up_the_hampipe]

Thoughts on this relevant Bill Maher rant that's been doing the rounds? Probably best not to read the comments https://youtu.be/ugLbotr1RuQ

[Twed]

Thoughts on this relevant Bill Maher rant that's been doing the rounds? Probably best not to read the comments ever pay attention to the closeted right-winger stooge for every bad institution Bill Maher

[up_the_hampipe]

Sigh Never mind.

[Soup]

Bill Maher in smugly missing the point shocker. Especially cunty is his total misrepresentation of that Molly Ringwald article which is even handed and talks precisely about the difficulty of revisiting old cultural artefacts with a contemporary gaze and trying to judge them fairly. Neither Ringwald nor really anyone else is guilty of what he is accusing her of. Nobody is saying expunge the records, delete this thought crime from history for it is not woke. They're evaluating their cultural patrimony, something that people have done for, I dunno, as long as "history" has been a thing? The Simpsons just complicates matters by being fucking undead.

[Twed]

Sigh Never mind.

It's okay to disagree.

[up_the_hampipe]

Hank Azaria on Colbert last night:



https://youtu.be/BrlpU99lGzI

[Brundle-Fly]

Going down the Simpsons YouTube wormhole and found this inteview fom eighteen months ago. You can see Azaria was starting to feel uncomfortable about Apu even then.  The whole clip is great fun and I was given a F**k me, of course! moment regarding Prof.Frink's voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnW46O1FWlc

[momatt]

Just watched the documentary.  Well-made and entertaining, but seemed rather one-sided.
Seems to me as if the problem is more about the lack of south-asian representation elsewhere (in the 90s) rather than The Simpsons doing anything hugely wrong.  This has been thankfully rectified with time.  Loads of great Indians on TV now.
Ok, a lot of the people interviewed had been bullied as kids, sometimes in ways relating to Apu.  But surely this is more to do with kids being twats?  They use any excuse to pick on each other.  If it wasn't "thank you, come again", they'd be saying something else.

I loved the moment when Hari Kondabolu's parents said he looked like Apu, with the same hair.  I'm surprised they left that in!

Also, some people said that Apu is an idiot or a bad person, which is simply untrue.  He has a degree, a business and a beautiful wife!  Maybe he's a bit goofy, but I find that difficult to get too worked up about.

But, if people are truly upset by Apu, then something should be done.
Preferably cancelling the whole show.  Killing him off?  Using a different actor or accent?

Still, a real shame Azaria wasn't more involved for a more balanced view.

Not digging at you either, cos honestly, I love Beemo, but Google isn't that hard to use for all your "SJ-whatnow?" needs.

Likewise, SJW is a stupid snarl-term that I mostly use ironically.

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's beyond me to learn new words, just they're used in such an annoying knee-jerky way and are a bit unnecessary.  So we're on the same page.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

'alt-right' is a really common term though, it's been in the mainstream news and everything. if you're unfamiliar with it, that's on you at this point

[momatt]

Yeah, I know what it means.  But it's just a nice way of saying 'racist cunt'.  Which is cowardly and annoying.

Anyway - what to do about Apu?!

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Yeah, I know what it means.  But it's just a nice way of saying 'racist cunt'.  Which is cowardly and annoying.

There is a key distinction, and it's to do with the different specific varieties of racist cunt, but that is a conversation for another time, another place

[Large Noise]

Azaria seems to be breaking ranks a bit in that interview. He's put a bit of pressure on the writers/producers etc. to address the issue properly.

[selectivememory]

Hank Azaria on Colbert last night:



https://youtu.be/BrlpU99lGzI

That's a pretty good response. It's taken him a while - and it's a shame he refused to take part in the documentary - but better late than never.

Anyway - what to do about Apu?!

Well, see Azaria's response above for starters.

I don't really mind what they do now in the show because it's been shite for years, but hopefully this documentary will lead to fewer blatantly racist caricatures on TV in the future. And yes, we can talk all day about how loads of the supporting characters are stereotypes of one kind or another, but this issue, as you've pointed out yourself, is about the lack of Indian-American representation. If it has a positive influence in that respect it probably doesn't matter so much what happens with Apu. Azaria certainly seems to understand the issue now.

Also, some people said that Apu is an idiot or a bad person, which is simply untrue.  He has a degree, a business and a beautiful wife!  Maybe he's a bit goofy, but I find that difficult to get too worked up about.

Just wanted to pick you up on one thing. Yes, he's generally presented as a loveable character, but he's also pretty unscrupulous when it comes to his business. Selling rotting meat products to Homer, charging extortionate prices for everyday items etc. That's what I think they're getting at when they said he might be a bad person.

[Brundle-Fly]

Just wanted to pick you up on one thing. Yes, he's generally presented as a loveable character, but he's also pretty unscrupulous when it comes to his business. Selling rotting meat products to Homer, charging extortionate prices for everyday items etc. That's what I think they getting at when they said he might be a bad person.

The thing about The Simpsons series (rather than the original shorts) is it always dealt in instantly recognisable archetypes rather than 'stereotypes' to ease viewers into watching a 22 minute animated satire of modern life. Other similar shows that came in its wake since haven't had to do that. There was bound to be quite a few old fashioned cliches by now.

Do you think in the future there mght be a danger of comedy writers, in general, 'blanding out' any character of an ethnic background or minority group for fear of offence if any negative traits are presented?

[Twed]

I don't think the two options on offer are "bland" and "insensitive stereotype" though.

[Brundle-Fly]

Well obviously, but you can see my point? The answer is what Azaria propsoses; get more Asian writers involved.

[Twed]

I agree.

[momatt]

Just wanted to pick you up on one thing. Yes, he's generally presented as a loveable character, but he's also pretty unscrupulous when it comes to his business. Selling rotting meat products to Homer, charging extortionate prices for everyday items etc. That's what I think they're getting at when they said he might be a bad person.

Yes, I see what you mean.  But just because he's Indian doesn't mean he's representing all Indians.  Can't he he be an unscrupulous man, who happens to be Indian?  Does he have to always be representing an entire continent?

Well obviously, but you can see my point? The answer is what Azaria propsoses; get more Asian writers involved.

Yes, this would be a start.  In the documentary, when they described the initial meetings of a load of white man laughing about the Indian stereotype, it did seem quite unpleasant.

[neveragain]

The major risk as far as I see it is that getting on board more Asian writers may result in further episodes.

[Twed]

Yes, I see what you mean.  But just because he's Indian doesn't mean he's representing all Indians.  Can't he he be an unscrupulous man, who happens to be Indian?

Compare with Navid from Still Game. He has virtues and flaws, and as well-rounded because the writing have met Indians and the actor is one. Compare Apu to that and yeah, it's a bit rum.

I only love Apu because he's always been there.

[momatt]

I only love Apu because he's always been there.

Good point.  Like I've said in other threads, it'd very difficult to critique things you've grown up with.
Apu is like a best mate!

[Weeping Prophet]

Well-made and entertaining, but seemed rather one-sided.

What side was it required to provide other than its own? I've been watching The Simpsons most of my life and had never given a seconds thought to Apu being a problem, so the last thing I needed from this documentary was a perspective I took for granted.

Seems to me as if the problem is more about the lack of south-asian representation elsewhere (in the 90s) rather than The Simpsons doing anything hugely wrong.

This is true. What makes The Simpsons a perfect example is that it's been running non-stop for over twenty years and the producers keep acting like it's timeless and doesn't need to change. It's normal to call out old shows and say such'n such was dodgy or problematic, but The Simpsons is a rare case where those problems are ongoing. Also, The Simpsons is (or was) a truly great show and can do better.

[Sin Agog]

Was just thinking, anyone know the origin of the 'what a palava' stereotype?  It's so specific that I feel like it must come from somewhere, like a Spike Milligan sketch or a Rudyard Kipling adaptation.  Had to check my aunt for doing that a few weeks back.  Felt like a kill-joy, but I'm glad it was me doing it and not someone who could have gotten genuinely hurt.

[rue the polywhirl]

Seems to be the problem is not with Apu but with the people taking offence one way or the other. It's the people with the problem. Documentary should have been called 'MY problem with Apu' if it was going to be an honest, objective, even-handed one.