Predator (1987)

[Shit Good Nose]

Well, it's a bit like Alien and Aliens... top sequel with lots of cool stuff, louder and more action-orientated, but the first one is more mysterious and impactful.

Yeah, although it has to be said T2 has aged a LOT better than Aliens has.  Admittedly I've similarly never thought Aliens was much cop, but regardless of my own personal thoughts about it, it has objectively dated incredibly badly.

[mothman]

Does anyone here remember watching the Entertainment USA show, hosted by that charming ex music mogul Jonathan King, when it previewed Predator?

Always nice to know my posts make an impression.

I remember one Mr. J. King occasionally of this parish highlighting Predator on Entertainment USA

[zomgmouse]

I too prefer the originals of both Alien and The Terminator. Something about the worlds being formed in each of them. I guess the Alien example is slightly different as it's a different director helming the sequel and taking into a different, bigger and blockbustery and consequently (for me) less effective direction. Though I really admire the craft that went into it despite not really liking the film itself.

Guess what's just clicked for me: who directed Aliens? Could it have been THE VERY SAME JAMES FUCKING CAMERON OF TERMINATORS FAME? OOH, I DUNNO, MAYBE. Fuck's sake.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that while Predator is a very good film, the best thing to come out of it is still that bit in Shooting Stars where they do the Predator thing in that bit.

[mobias]

Always nice to know my posts make an impression.

Funny, I just reread your earlier post and I do remember reading it the first time around as you mentioned Red Sonja, which jogged a memory. I don't know why I didn't pick on the Jonathan King thing. I must have skimmed past it.

[Dr Rock]

Admittedly I've similarly never thought Aliens was much cop, but regardless of my own personal thoughts about it, it has objectively dated incredibly badly.

In what ways?

[Spiteface]

Hasn't aged well.

3 tits, though.

[thraxx]

3 tits, though.

Grant, Phil and Peggy Mitchell?

[Spiteface]

Grant, Phil and Peggy Mitchell?

Rod, Jane and Freddy

[Shit Good Nose]

In what ways?

Script is clunky as fuck, the "80s but futuristic" style makes it look even more 80s than the most other 80s films, the 'nam-esque grunts (the 'nam allegory in general as well, come to think of it) and their camaraderie and dialogue makes Predator's look positively restrained in comparison, the general look of the film...just pretty much everything about it other than the development of Ripley, the (still) excellent practical effects, and the confirmation that the aliens themselves are intelligent creatures.

And those fucking names...

[mothman]

Three-tit girl subsequently played a recurring crewmember on Star Trek TNG. Quite distracting thinking about what might be under that Starfleet uniform. Of course, those scenes in Total Recall are more distracting now I know one of the mutants is Hank from Breaking Bad.

[Shit Good Nose]

one of the mutants is Hank from Breaking Bad.

"Taank yoo Toneeeehhhh."
"Mahh."

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

And those fucking names...

You find something risible about the name Spunkmire?

[Shit Good Nose]

You find something risible about the name Spunkmire?

Some of my best friends are called Spunkmeyer (spelling, please) and Wierzbowski.

No, I was referring to Crowe and Frost.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I'll not hear a bad word about Total Recall.

[Shit Good Nose]

With you on that Cobby.

I think that was the first time an A-list American blockbuster had a proper scrap between women.

"Considah dat a div-awwwwwwwsss."

Great film.

[zomgmouse]

Script is clunky as fuck

I feel like this summarises pretty much the entirety of James Cameron's career. I've long said he needs to stick to art direction which he's actually brilliant and give up screenwriting which he's a primary school child at.

"GAME OVERRRR MAAAAAN. GAAAAME OOOOVERRRRR"

[biggytitbo]

I don't think Cameron is a bad scriptwriter at all. You might think his stuff lacks depth in terms of characterisation but it's perfectly sufficient for the kind of films he makes, and in terms of pacing and structure he's as good as anyone. Compare and contrast Cameron's writing with the scripts of any of the Star Wars films and it's night and day in terms of quality.

[zomgmouse]

I don't think Cameron is a bad scriptwriter at all. You might think his stuff lacks depth in terms of characterisation but it's perfectly sufficient for the kind of films he makes, and in terms of pacing and structure he's as good as anyone. Compare and contrast Cameron's writing with the scripts of any of the Star Wars films and it's night and day in terms of quality.

It's usually more in terms of dialogue. Unless all his characters are deliberately fucking dim bulbs.

[Shit Good Nose]

I don't think Cameron is a bad scriptwriter at all. You might think his stuff lacks depth in terms of characterisation but it's perfectly sufficient for the kind of films he makes, and in terms of pacing and structure he's as good as anyone. Compare and contrast Cameron's writing with the scripts of any of the Star Wars films and it's night and day in terms of quality.

If we're using Lucas as a comparison, then yeah okay.  But that comparison is a bit like comparing Akiva Goldsman and Michael Green - who is the least bad of the two? (rhetorical)

But there's NO way I'm gonna concede that James Cameron is a better screenwriter than Leigh Brackett or Lawrence Kasdan.  No way.

[mobias]

Cameron can't do subtle, which is why Titanic is as bad as it is. So much of that film needed a deft touch and thats something he doesn't have. Almost all of his other films have been enjoyable because his script writing is serviceable enough for the sorts of films they are. He isn't a great script writer though. When I hear Danny Boyle criticise auteur directors because so few of them can genuinely pull it off I always think of Cameron. He's an obvious example in mainstream cinema of someone who desperately needs to know he can't write scripts as well as he thinks he can.

[Replies From View]

I haven't seen enough James Cameron films to comment on his writing very objectively; I saw Aliens and the Terminator films in my early teens and it's that version of me that switches back on whenever I rewatch them today.  But I saw the Terminator 2 deleted scenes for the first time in my early 20s, and that was a different story.  The scene where Sarah and John get to work opening up the T-800's head is atrociously written.  If that's what the rest of the film is like, except I can't notice because I'm watching it with nostalgio-vision, then I am shocked.

- Out of my way John.
- Don't kill him.
- It, John.  Not him, it.
- Okay, IT.  But we need IT.
- Listen to me, listen.  We're better off on our own.
- But he's the only proof we have of the future and the war and all that.
- Maybe.  I don't trust it.
- But he's my friend alright?
- You don't know what it's like to try to kill one of these things!  And if something goes wrong this could be our last chance so MOVE!
- Look mom.  If ever I'm supposed to be this great military leader maybe you should start listening to MY leadership ideas once in a while!  Because if my own mother won't, how do you expect anyone else to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeL0xdVTy_g


The line delivery doesn't mask the script very well, it has to be said.  Very poor effort all round, but the mirror sequence itself is pretty cool on an effects level - once again achieving the effect in-camera using puppets and Linda Hamilton's twin double rather than post-production techniques.

[Shit Good Nose]

The Terminator still works fine as the script is so sparse, and also co-written by Gale Anne Hurd who, whilst not an established screenwriter then or now, probably helped bring the thing a bit more down to earth.

The only balanced script Cameron has written on his own is The Abyss (which I genuinely like), but even that is not without its faults - cut-n-paste military grunts again being the most obvious.

The thing is he hasn't grown or improved as a writer in the 40 years he's been doing it.  Piranha 2 and Rambo 2 (neither of which are exactly stone cold greats) have exactly the same writing style as Avatar and Titanic, the only difference being that he had more money and an A-list cast and crew with the latter two.

Which, I guess, goes some way to prove that you can polish a turd.


Anyway, that there Predator - fucking good it is.

[Replies From View]

Anyway, that there Predator - fucking good it is.

I like to pronounce it Pree-dah-torr.

[thraxx]

I haven't seen enough James Cameron films to comment on his writing very objectively; I saw Aliens and the Terminator films in my early teens and it's that version of me that switches back on whenever I rewatch them today.  But I saw the Terminator 2 deleted scenes for the first time in my early 20s, and that was a different story.  The scene where Sarah and John get to work opening up the T-800's head is atrociously written.  If that's what the rest of the film is like, except I can't notice because I'm watching it with nostalgio-vision, then I am shocked.

- Out of my way John.
- Don't kill him.
- It, John.  Not him, it.
- Okay, IT.  But we need IT.
- Listen to me, listen.  We're better off on our own.
- But he's the only proof we have of the future and the war and all that.
- Maybe.  I don't trust it.
- But he's my friend alright?
- You don't know what it's like to try to kill one of these things!  And if something goes wrong this could be our last chance so MOVE!
- Look mom.  If ever I'm supposed to be this great military leader maybe you should start listening to MY leadership ideas once in a while!  Because if my own mother won't, how do you expect anyone else to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeL0xdVTy_g


The line delivery doesn't mask the script very well, it has to be said.  Very poor effort all round, but the mirror sequence itself is pretty cool on an effects level - once again achieving the effect in-camera using puppets and Linda Hamilton's twin double rather than post-production techniques.

That was hilarious. I loved the slapstick aborted hammer blow and the 'war and all that' line.  The acting was appalling, apart from Arnie. I am reminded of the main reason i didnt like this film, the scrote that played John Connor.

[Shit Good Nose]

I like to pronounce it Pree-dah-torr.

Actually, I think you'll find it's pronounced "ugleee mudda fuckaaaaahhhhh".

[Replies From View]

I am reminded of the main reason i didnt like this film, the scrote that played John Connor.

If I remember correctly, they got a girl to play Edward Furlong's double in the mirror scene.  On cold, dark days, I like to imagine that he was deeply troubled by this fact.

[greenman]

Its amazing how much of a critical revaluation of Arnie's 80's movies has gone on over time. When they came out they were pretty much laughed at. I well remember when Predator came out and people marvelled at why such amazing special effects were being wasted on an big Arnie movie.  I don't think anyone took Commando or Running Man seriously. At the time they were just seen as yet more vacuous movies staring the ex Mister Universe who's inability to act brought a huge amount of  bewildered entertainment to people.  They were just part of the late 80's blockbuster cinema fodder that was about at the time. All of them are hugely enjoyable and very watchable but I'm not really sure anyone takes them any more seriously now as they did at the time of their release. Or maybe they do?  I think with modern cinema being so utterly shit for various reasons we yearn for a time where films like this were simpler and kind of effortlessly had a certain amount of charm about them. Back then it only took Arnie armed with a huge gun and few decent one liners per movie to make something like Commando watchable.

But for what its worth I fucking love Predator. Does anyone here remember watching the Entertainment USA show, hosted by that charming ex music mogul Jonathan King, when it previewed Predator? I remember videoing it and watching it and rewinding the Predator clip and trailer time and time again. People forget that back in those days the USA always got movies about 6 months or so before they opened here so it was always ultra exciting seeing what films we were going to be getting in what seemed quite far off in the future.

And yes Predator 2 is also really good. A very different movie since the first was more just a vehicle for Arnie to be in, despite the rest of the cast also being very good.   

Here is the amazing Predator trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1txEAywdiw

Honestly I tend to think that we saw a bit of a shift after Commando, that film and others like it were much more prototypical "Reagan actioners" where it was basically one liners and mass destruction with a US nationalistic bent on other most of the time. Perhaps it was down to Blade Runner's failure or just the climate of the era but I think the original Terminator marked a shift where by sci fi was increasingly pushed towards action. Films like Robocop, Predator, The Running Man and Total Recall all had concepts to them that might potentially have been made in a more down to earth fashion  5-10 years either side of when they were released.

Honestly I do tend to think that the cloak of the action involved allowed those films to get away with quite a bit, I mean in the Running Man the US is a facist state run on violent junk TV that Arnie takes out with a load of Che Guevara lookalikes. Action cinema might have come down to earth a bit in the 90's and later but it tended to be much more establishment pandering, full of evil foreigners/Aliens and gloring in the US military.

As far as Arine himself goes I think the old cliché that he's a bad talker and a pretty good physical actor does hold true, in the case of Predator you have some cheesy one liners earlier on but when it gets down to mano a mano at the end he's very effective.

[Replies From View]

Actually, I think you'll find it's pronounced "ugleee mudda fuckaaaaahhhhh".

It's very hard to write down, but if you imagine the last two syllables of matador, but with the t and d switched around, that's how I pronounce the last two syllables of Predator.  So it's Pree-dattor rather than Pree-dah-tor, which might suggest a more standard mock-US pronunciation, which isn't what I do.  It's wrong enough to annoy people on both sides of the Atlantic who don't know I'm doing it on purpose, and that's the main thing.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

As far as Arine himself goes I think the old cliché that he's a bad talker and a pretty good physical actor does hold true, in the case of Predator you have some cheesy one liners earlier on but when it gets down to mano a mano at the end he's very effective.

I've always thought he gives a generally good performance in Predator. Probably didn't give Olivier or DeNiro any cause for concern, but he's perfectly convincing throughout. Even, "Get to the choppaaah!"

[greenman]

I've always thought he gives a generally good performance in Predator. Probably didn't give Olivier or DeNiro any cause for concern, but he's perfectly convincing throughout. Even, "Get to the choppaaah!"

Its more I spose that the film plays rather to the cheesier side early on but then increasingly becomes non vocal as it becomes more serious.