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Super Mario Odyssey - and some general chat about Mario games

Started by Kelvin, October 12, 2017, 02:19:30 PM

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Pdine

I wonder if Nintendo are going to stick with this theme of epic Greek poetry for their future Mario 3D games. I'd be interested in Super Mario Oedipus Rex for example.

Bhazor

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 02:25:22 PM
Some fucking mad shit

Didn't even mention Psychonauts or Prince of Persia. So apparently by your metric Maximo is better than both of them and Mario Sunshine.

Quote from: Pdine on October 13, 2017, 03:24:32 PM
I wonder if Nintendo are going to stick with this theme of epic Greek poetry for their future Mario 3D games. I'd be interested in Super Mario Oedipus Rex for example.

If we don't get Peach hiding in a Yoshi costume to seduce a passing Rosalina into fucking her I'll be very disappointed

Kelvin

Quote from: Twed on October 13, 2017, 02:56:44 PM
I think that before replying to that post we should all take some time to remember that all opinions on art and entertainment are all personal choices and none of them are bad, despite the objectively wrong thing madhair just wrote.

Doesn't like Mario 64. Doesn't like Link to the Past. Doesn't like Super Mario World.

I love you, Madhair, but this shit is testing me    :)

madhair60

I do like Super Mario World! I have beaten it several times with all 96 exits! Even the GBA version with all 5 dragon coins in each stage! I think it's very good.

Mario 64 would be good if you could get multiple Stars in one pass, like Banjo-Kazooie lets you with Jiggys.

Link to the Past is just more meandering tedium for me really. Dungeons are alright, overworld is just bleh and not a patch on the puzzle-box intricacy and precision of Link's Awakening (the best Zelda I've played), where every single screen was a riddle to solve. Perfect game. LttP has amazing music and atmosphere though so props.

Kelvin

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 03:48:16 PM
I do like Super Mario World! I have beaten it several times with all 96 exits! Even the GBA version with all 5 dragon coins in each stage! I think it's very good.

I know you do, you big silly. I was just tweaking your nipples.

Let's see if we can find consensus on which is the best Mario Galaxy game:

I prefer Galaxy 1, as the art design is more ambitious and interesting, and the level design more varied and unpredictable.

madhair60

Yeah I prefer 1. Nothing wrong with 2, it's just a bit familiar and after 100%ing Mario Galaxy I didn't really have the drive to finish the sequel.

I really like the New Super Mario Bros series. Every game in that series has been a treat. I think I liked the Wii one best, though I haven't spent an enormous amount of time on the Wii U game yet.

Anyone played Captain Toad on Wii U? That is pure magic.

madhair60

I'm actually playing the 3DS title Mario & Luigi: Dream Team Bros at the moment. I'm something like 15 hours in and it's not showing any remote signs of being even halfway through; utterly vast game. First two hours or so were tutorial hell but it's letting me explore a bit more now.

Mario RPGs are so good. Though once again I fall into the weirdo position of preferring the later, puzzle/exploration focused Paper Marios (Sticker Star, Colour Splash) to the earlier more trad JRPG ones (Thousand-Year Door).... they just released a remake of the truly excellent Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga on 3DS, which I highly recommend. Utterly charming game.

colacentral

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 03:48:16 PM
Mario 64 would be good if you could get multiple Stars in one pass, like Banjo-Kazooie lets you with Jiggys.

The difference though is that selecting certain stars from the level select screen changes certain elements of the levels.

Even without that though, I don't get this criticism. How hard is it just to go back into the levels? It's not like they're that big. It takes a minute or two to get back in exploring.

Bazooka

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 03:57:05 PM
I'm actually playing the 3DS title Mario & Luigi: Dream Team Bros at the moment. I'm something like 15 hours in and it's not showing any remote signs of being even halfway through; utterly vast game. First two hours or so were tutorial hell but it's letting me explore a bit more now.

Mario RPGs are so good. Though once again I fall into the weirdo position of preferring the later, puzzle/exploration focused Paper Marios (Sticker Star, Colour Splash) to the earlier more trad JRPG ones (Thousand-Year Door).... they just released a remake of the truly excellent Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga on 3DS, which I highly recommend. Utterly charming game.

Dream Team Bros, although I completed it was an insult to gamers young and old with the endless dialogue and tutorials. Sticker Star, dear lord what a shambles that was.

Bazooka

Quote from: colacentral on October 13, 2017, 04:10:23 PM
The difference though is that selecting certain stars from the level select screen changes certain elements of the levels.

Even without that though, I don't get this criticism. How hard is it just to go back into the levels? It's not like they're that big. It takes a minute or two to get back in exploring.

Imagine that format with todays loading times? Dear lord.

madhair60

Quote from: colacentral on October 13, 2017, 04:10:23 PM
I don't get this criticism. How hard is it just to go back into the levels? It's not like they're that big. It takes a minute or two to get back in exploring.

It's tedious and irritating to get kicked to the hub every couple of minutes. Just let me get them all in one go. Rework the stages if they have to.

Quote from: Bazooka on October 13, 2017, 04:11:17 PM
Sticker Star, dear lord what a shambles that was.

Easily my favourite one to date, I absolutely loved that. It gave me the feeling of an old adventure game, like a Sierra game or something. Exploration that required you to actually explore and try things out, puzzles that you had to actually think about. Quality game, almost no hand-holding at all, really offbeat and old-school feel. I was thrilled when Colour Splash went in the same direction, and I'm playing that one on and off at the moment.

Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 04:24:11 PM
It's tedious and irritating to get kicked to the hub every couple of minutes. Just let me get them all in one go. Rework the stages if they have to.
I think that would be bad. I love the focused hunt for one star in a specifically-changed level, the clue in the level title. Every level becomes five lovely set-pieces. The game you want sounds more like Sonic than Mario.

Kelvin

Quote from: Twed on October 13, 2017, 04:26:02 PM
I think that would be bad. I love the focused hunt for one star in a specifically-changed level, the clue in the level title. Every level becomes five lovely set-pieces. The game you want sounds more like Sonic than Mario.

It's also to encourage players to leave that level for a bit and try a star elsewhere. If you could get every star from the start, the game would be much shorter and more linear. You'd be able to get most of the stars in a level in about 10 minutes of continuous play. Banjo had bigger levels and more filler (like Jinjos and notes) to compensate for that.   

madhair60

Quote from: Twed on October 13, 2017, 04:26:02 PM
I think that would be bad. I love the focused hunt for one star in a specifically-changed level, the clue in the level title. Every level becomes five lovely set-pieces. The game you want sounds more like Sonic than Mario.

More Banjo-Kazooie actually, seeing as they literally did the thing I'm asking for. YMMV on whether you like that game's approach.

Mario Galaxy had a similar, but refined approach. They figured that nobody wants to replay the same ground seven times (I remember that mountain stage with the mushrooms where every time you started the level you had to traverse the same few minutes of ground to even get to the areas with any Stars), so it was what, two/three Stars maximum per Galaxy, plus prankster comets?

Quote from: Kelvin on October 13, 2017, 04:31:33 PMIf you could get every star from the start, the game would be much shorter and more linear.

Shorter = better, more linear = less flat, featureless terrain, so I'm all for that.

Did anyone play the shit DS version where they actively locked arbitrary stars behind new playable characters, like in Donkey Kong 64 or something?

Quote from: Kelvin on October 13, 2017, 04:31:33 PM
Banjo had bigger levels and more filler (like Jinjos and notes) to compensate for that.

Red Coins and Gold Coins formed much the same challenge in 64, though - Eight red coins instead of five Jingos and 100 Gold coins/notes had collectables locked behind them in both games. 'Course, getting all the Stars/Jiggies gets you next to fuck all anyway, so you can always skip that stuff.

Tell you what though, this thread's tempting me to pick it up on Wii U Virtual Console and give it another crack. My opinions of Mario 64 are largely based on decade-old memories.

Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 04:34:05 PMThey figured that nobody wants to replay the same ground seven times
They were wrong. Many people love that about the 3D Mario games, playing a familiar level with a new twist. Seeing new stuff constantly isn't that rewarding, I like a game where an area becomes familiar. I don't think it's accurate to suggest that it's dull trudgery, as Mario levels are small.

madhair60

Well, y'know, each to their own and that. Taking Bob-Omb Battlefield, from memory, to even sniff a Star you've got to go over that field at the beginning, up that lift, past that Chain Chomp (you can get a Star off him, mind), through that gate and up that hill, yeah? That's six times at least, doing that, if I remember correctly. I'm just not really arsed.

But then, I praised Jak 2/3 above and you spent 50% of those games driving through a jam-packed city from place to place largely uneventfully, so what the fuck am I on about, eh. Like I said these are ooooold criticisms of mine, so I'll give it another play and see how I feel I think. No doubt I'll change my mind.

madhair60

I've just remembered that you can get in the cannon at the start of the level after getting the first Star, so that's my last post fucked.

colacentral

On the Galaxy question: I love both, but prefer 2. It continues straight on from where the first left off, escalating the complexity of the level design and the difficulty. I want Nintendo to make more direct sequels like that as I think there must be so much more to mine from the core ideas once the developers are able to see the finished product. Captain Toad and BotW are two recent examples where you could take the core game and add so much more to them without having to develop a brand new world / concept from scratch.

Kelvin

The thing is Mario Galaxy is brought down for me by the sheer number of comet stars, which literally have you repeating the exact same task, under very slightly different conditions. That's repetitive. Mario 64 does have you repeat levels to an extent, but always with a different focus in mind, a different area to head towards, often with different items (a shell to surf), or different types of enemies.

It's not true to say you're literally playing the same level every time, because there's a big difference between entering the first snow world and racing the penguin, and entering it and carrying the baby penguin down the hill, or reaching the secret area via cannon, then wall jumping up the walls. You're not retreading your steps in each world, other than at the start. Only a few levels, like the big mushroom mountain Madhair mentioned (try saying that quickly), or the clock, require you to retread a larger portion of the level repeatedly. 

Quote from: colacentral on October 13, 2017, 04:55:43 PM
Captain Toad and BotW are two recent examples where you could take the core game and add so much more to them without having to develop a brand new world / concept from scratch.

BOTW (and even Mario) are both out so soon in this console's life, that you have to imagine they'll make sequels using the same engines. Probably with smaller worlds, ala Majora's Mask.   

Bhazor

One of the great things about Mario is the flexibility of the license. The core is so simplistic you can add in any kind of gimmick and it won't feel out of place. Sort of like classic cartoon characters where Daffy Duck can change from Robin Hood in one episode to Buck Rodgers in the next without any of the time or risks of creating a whole new cast of characters/IP. So just give Mario a jetpack, give him gravity warping powers, make it multiplayer, make it into an RPG, have him play golf, have him be Xcom. Same with Zelda and the gimmicks that series has had. Its something that other Nintendo franchises like Metroid or Fzero just don't have.

Its why hack game journos going on about Nintendo being risk adverse really don't understand what Nintendo does.

madhair60

Course, Captain Toad is actually packaged with its two sequels.

colacentral

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 05:13:31 PM
Course, Captain Toad is actually packaged with its two sequels.

What are you talking about now?

madhair60


Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 04:45:16 PM
Well, y'know, each to their own and that. Taking Bob-Omb Battlefield, from memory, to even sniff a Star you've got to go over that field at the beginning, up that lift, past that Chain Chomp (you can get a Star off him, mind), through that gate and up that hill, yeah? That's six times at least, doing that, if I remember correctly. I'm just not really arsed.
To be honest it sounds like I wouldn't be arsed with that either, but I think the answer is redesigning the level. It's not necessarily a flaw with the set-piece system itself, IMO.

colacentral

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 05:21:26 PM
What happens when you "finish" the game.

Ah right, I haven't finished it yet, not had time. I still haven't completed Mario 3d World either, which is the first time I've not finished a mainline console Mario 3D platformer since I first started playing them.

As a sidenote: my Wii U gamepad is fucked at the moment too. The touchscreen and most of the buttons have stopped working. It's definitely a software issue rather than hardware though - I suspect that it started an automatic update while the charger was turned off and ran out of battery halfway through. The fact that I can't get into the system settings to try and find some way to sort this out without using the gamepad is a complete joke.

Bhazor

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2017, 04:45:16 PM
Well, y'know, each to their own and that. Taking Bob-Omb Battlefield, from memory, to even sniff a Star you've got to go over that field at the beginning, up that lift, past that Chain Chomp (you can get a Star off him, mind), through that gate and up that hill, yeah? That's six times at least, doing that, if I remember correctly. I'm just not really arsed.

That takes like ten seconds. Oooooh you are in for a fucking bullying.

madhair60

If you'll have a look at me replies there, you'll see that I remembered about the cannon at the start of the level, and retracted it.

Twed

Oh yeah, that's level one, a level that in my mind is a good example of the replaying being just fine.

I'm angry at you madhair, I might get some of the GamerGate folk together to make something out of this.

Twed


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On the first screen, press 'down' and select "two player".  This will unlock a special green-clothed, taller version of Mario!