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March 29, 2024, 01:55:25 AM

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Mindhunter

Started by Viero_Berlotti, October 14, 2017, 03:50:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ja'moke

Quote from: Puce Moment on August 21, 2019, 08:37:15 PM
The use of Manson was not only salacious and ill-conceived, but acknowledged at least twice within the show itself as completely outside of their purview. The actor was marvellous (as are most of the killers in this I would say) but within the logic of the show I felt it didn't make sense. Has anyone read the book - did they really go to see Manson to help with their project to profile lone-acting, compulsive serial killers? How did any of that help?

Yep, they interviewed Manson in real life. It's talked about briefly in the book. He apparently perched on the back of the chair like he does in the series too.

Holden was also called to help with the Yorkshire Ripper case just before he was asked to help with the Atlanta case.

Jim_MacLaine

Quote from: Puce Moment on August 21, 2019, 08:37:15 PM
The use of Manson was not only salacious and ill-conceived, but acknowledged at least twice within the show itself as completely outside of their purview. The actor was marvellous (as are most of the killers in this I would say) but within the logic of the show I felt it didn't make sense. Has anyone read the book - did they really go to see Manson to help with their project to profile lone-acting, compulsive serial killers? How did any of that help?

Yep, John Douglas did interview Manson. Said it was very bizarre and the sunglasses were given in real life.

edit. As Ja'moke said

Shit Good Nose

I have something in my mind that says Douglas interviewed Manson specifically off the back of the Atlanta killings for some reason, but I may be conflating it with something else.

Ja'moke

I also thought that Kemper and Manson staying in the same prison was just done for convenience in the series. But no, turns out they both were in that same prison for a while.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Ja'moke on August 21, 2019, 09:43:31 PM
I also thought that Kemper and Manson staying in the same prison was just done for convenience in the series. But no, turns out they both were in that same prison for a while.

Yeah, Sheldon Renan and Leonard Schrader wanted to interview Manson for The Killing of America, but he snubbed them at the last minute when he found out he'd only feature in a short part of the film.  In the end they interviewed Kemper instead, who was well up for it of course.

Jim_MacLaine



[Mum's head sold separately]

Puce Moment

Quote from: Ja'moke on August 21, 2019, 09:22:58 PM
Yep, they interviewed Manson in real life. It's talked about briefly in the book. He apparently perched on the back of the chair like he does in the series too.

Holden was also called to help with the Yorkshire Ripper case just before he was asked to help with the Atlanta case.

Interviewing Manson just made no sense to me beyond shining a light on both Holden's obsession with sleb criminals, and/or showing that the remit of the unit had moved beyond serial killers. A study on cults, mind control and mass murder would lead them to Manson and Tex Watson in particular, but doesn't seem to offer much in terms of illuminating their main cases. Watson discussing the murders was so incredeibly different to any other account of serial killing in the show that I don't understand how it could help them.

The only other benefit of interviewing Manson, as far as I can see, is to impress those dumb old rich white men financiers at the parties this show seems to dwell on.

phes

I dunno I think for me the shite in this season really ponged up the whole show. Just pulling it in different, boring directions that I couldn't really care less about. I also found this whole season somehow a bit bland and lifeless. I watch fewer and fewer prestige dramas now because I'm left feel pretty burned by them come the end. That just wasn't worth nine hours, at all. Rewatches of Homicide, The Wire, Justified, The Shield etc, anything that did something brilliantly are going to be my go to for the foreseable until I regain my trust in television sob etc

EOLAN

Enjoying that a lot of far-fetched nitpicks are turning out to be largely factual. But surely it wouldn't have been so co-incidental that the identification of the key suspect  happened on the very last possible day that there were patrol teams out.

Ja'moke

Quote from: EOLAN on August 23, 2019, 11:35:46 AM
Enjoying that a lot of far-fetched nitpicks are turning out to be largely factual. But surely it wouldn't have been so co-incidental that the identification of the key suspect  happened on the very last possible day that there were patrol teams out.

According to the book, it was indeed on the last day. I suppose you could argue John Douglas dramatised things up a bit in his retelling, but surely things like that could be easily fact checked? So I assume he's been truthful when it comes to dates and stuff.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Puce Moment on August 22, 2019, 12:10:18 PM
impress those dumb old rich white men financiers at the parties this show seems to dwell on.

I'm not going to argue with your opinion of the show - it's your opinion after all - but I don't think a few relatively short sequences in 19-odd hours of TV constitutes as dwelling on it...

Besides, it's for the guys who made all the decisions at top level who, up until then, thought that it was a pointless little unit doing whacko work whilst wasting department time and money, so it makes sense for the show to give a little bit of coverage to them buttering up the superiors with stories.

Puce Moment

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 23, 2019, 12:55:24 PM
I'm not going to argue with your opinion of the show - it's your opinion after all - but I don't think a few relatively short sequences in 19-odd hours of TV constitutes as dwelling on it...

Besides, it's for the guys who made all the decisions at top level who, up until then, thought that it was a pointless little unit doing whacko work whilst wasting department time and money, so it makes sense for the show to give a little bit of coverage to them buttering up the superiors with stories.

Perhaps bingeing it just made the amount of scenes of men being really impressed by the protagonists' encounters with murderers seem over the top. It wasn't just them - it seemed to be everyone, including local law enforcement (that bar scene with the local cops). There seemed to be a "You actually met Son of Sam?" scene in each episode. I understand why people would do this, but a TV drama about a prison guard would have the same scenes.

I felt that those scenes had different functions. For instance, it is used to show that Ford doesn't understand regular people's curiosities, cos he's autistic or a savant or something else borrowed from thousands of other tv shows and dramas. Tench comes back to rescue him because he has the patter. I don't really see what this adds in season 2. We know this.

Cuellar

Those half drunk, balding suits looking for cheap titillation are audience surrogates. It's holding the mirror up to YOU sat on your balding, half drunk arse looking for vicarious thrills. For all that Tench and Ford say 'we want to know WHY these people do what they do', the show knows that the audience don't give a toss. They want to hear Ed Kemper talk about sliding his dick into a severed head.

phes

Well that's the first time any cunt has accused me of being half drunk

Sin Agog

Wonder if they used a special casting method for all the actors playing the ser--- multiple murderers.  They seem way more vivid and interesting than most day-players who people these kinda one-and-done roles.  Agree that there is a bit of that Third Season Problem of padding things out with peripheral/family drama, but time stands still whenever we enter a cell with a tape recorder and someone who delights in ending lives.

Schnapple

I like this show enough, but like the above poster, I can't help but feel I'm mainly waiting for the interviews with the killers. To justify my lust for the macabre, I'd stress that they are the best parts in terms of both performance and writing.

Bill is a really decent and likeable character, representing an old-fashioned but largely non-problematic kind of masculinity you don't see much on telly these days. I would like a beer with him, or whatever. I also really like Wendy's character, and even if the relationship stuff felt utterly redundant to the thrust of the show, it was well played by the actors involved. Holden is really annoying. I know that's the point, and the show is spreading multiple branches further out into "but who's the real psycopath?" territory, as it always would have, but christ, he's such a prick. I suppose it's bold of a show to lead with such an unlikeable co-lead, mind.

PlanktonSideburns

I thought the constant blokes fascinated by the gory anecdotes bit was more knowing than that: painting a portrait of a society enraptured by murderers, bored by the victims

Feels resonant when everyone wants a piece of the epstein story when it's all sun temples, egg shaped frozen robodicks and sheepskin rugs in helicopters, but suddenly no one's interested when the victims get their time in court to talk

Enjoying this so far, seems to have a more weird and nauseating style, really like this bill tench bloke, could watch him for days.

Sin Agog

#137
Quote from: Schnapple on August 27, 2019, 11:39:39 PM
I like this show enough, but like the above poster, I can't help but feel I'm mainly waiting for the interviews with the killers. To justify my lust for the macabre, I'd stress that they are the best parts in terms of both performance and writing.

Bill is a really decent and likeable character, representing an old-fashioned but largely non-problematic kind of masculinity you don't see much on telly these days. I would like a beer with him, or whatever. I also really like Wendy's character, and even if the relationship stuff felt utterly redundant to the thrust of the show, it was well played by the actors involved. Holden is really annoying. I know that's the point, and the show is spreading multiple branches further out into "but who's the real psycopath?" territory, as it always would have, but christ, he's such a prick. I suppose it's bold of a show to lead with such an unlikeable co-lead, mind.

Caught the real Holden being interviewed on the Jim Norton show recently (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zncBytCXpK0&t=979s), and the actor captures him pretty well.  Maybe the actual dude is a little gentler (softened with age?), but he seems to be a similar repository of crime stats, info and ideas.  Natural Born Killer Catcher.  You can definitely sense a slightly churlish side, too, from the many times he's smacked his head against bureaucratic walls. The show seems to be highlighting the absent-minded professor nature of guys like that- the human brain can seemingly only store so much information, sometimes it's the doing away with social finesse (which takes up a huge chunk of grey matter) that frees up certain people to really excel in their particular field.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on August 30, 2019, 06:45:04 PM
I thought the constant blokes fascinated by the gory anecdotes bit was more knowing than that: painting a portrait of a society enraptured by murderers, bored by the victims

Good point - cf. the Tench's BBQ with the neighbours and one of the wives is talking about her husband taking Bill golfing whilst Bill's talking about Kemper beheading one of the co-eds.  The husband basically brushes the golf aside with a quick "he's welcome any time" and then moves forward on his seat and asks more about Kemper's killings.

monkfromhavana

I'm halfway through season 1 and enjoying it so far. The bits with Holden's girlfriend...should I be paying attention to any of that, cos that's generally when I go and make a cup of tea, look at my phone etc.

jake thunder

Yes, very important. Don't miss a single frame.

Hank Venture

The weirdest thing from S2 was the scenes where Holden tries to beat the parade to the church so he can put up a cross. It's filmed in this very student film way, complete with a "scary" filter on. One of the strangest things I've seen in an otherwise straight-played series of relatively high quality. Really odd.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Hank Venture on September 01, 2019, 12:45:16 AM
The weirdest thing from S2 was the scenes where Holden tries to beat the parade to the church so he can put up a cross. It's filmed in this very student film way, complete with a "scary" filter on. One of the strangest things I've seen in an otherwise straight-played series of relatively high quality. Really odd.

I think the reason it stood out particularly is because it's otherwise filmed in an old school way, as in stylistically and technically being a nod to 70s/80s film-making - long takes, lots of static camera, no shakey-cam (one of the biggest annoyances going for me), dolly work etc.  In other words it hasn't got any of the things that most of today's TV shows and films have got.  So for that scene to then change to like it was something out of a Fast & Furious film was a bit jarring.  I guess, from the point of view of the story, it was to heighten the drama of the chase, emphasise Holden's anxiety about getting there first, and also to emphasise its failure when it doesn't work out like he assumed it would.

Having said that, ignoring everything else, even without that stylistic change, that scene was pretty odd in the show anyway, I suppose cos it wasn't just people in a room talking.

EOLAN

Quote from: Hank Venture on September 01, 2019, 12:45:16 AM
The weirdest thing from S2 was the scenes where Holden tries to beat the parade to the church so he can put up a cross. It's filmed in this very student film way, complete with a "scary" filter on. One of the strangest things I've seen in an otherwise straight-played series of relatively high quality. Really odd.

I zoned out slightly on the planning of that. Was he doing it as a sign of sympathy and support or was it to provoke an outrage to a KKK style symbol. I thought it was the latter but was confused with the execution/outcome.

Hank Venture

I don't know. It was to provoke the killer to come and see, but that doesnt really make sense because how would you know which one of the presumably hundred black guys it would be and how would it hold up in court. Holden is a bit of an idiot, honestly.

Ja'moke

The crosses were meant to mark a specific area as "sacred," somewhere that the potential killer might visit at a later date because it will then be tied to the murders and perhaps his fantasies. I'm not quite sure why he was in such a rush to get it to that church. Maybe because he wanted it to be seen as the procession arrived, and presumably picked up by TV cameras, so that the killer would see it on TV and then recognise it's importance.

Again, this really happened (according to the book), including the kerfuffle about who was actually going to make the crosses and them arriving late.

studpuppet

I'm three episodes in (to the first series) and one thing that's annoying me is that all the sets (buildings, interiors etc.) are great, beaten up, worn-looking, of their time. But then all the cars look like they're literally straight out of the showroom (I'm not talking about their hire cars). Mint, no dents, no scratches, no missing hubcaps, not even Fuller's earth smeared around the wheel arches.

Apart from that, it's quite good.

Oh, and having seen those original Kemper interviews I'm 99% certain he was the inspiration for THIS.

Sin Agog

Because there are annoying vintage car shows blocking up the seafront every bloody Sunday, I got to talking with one of the owners.  Said he supplements his retirement by hiring his darlings out to period TV and movie shoots.  He seemed alright so far as petrolheads go, but he regaled me with anecdotes about how incredibly precious such types usually are.  If a vintage car is onscreen, then a vintage car owner is likely just behind the camera flailing about frantically.  No way would any of them let their babies get even a make-believe scuff for the sake of a shot.

Inspector Norse

Just finished series two and liked it a lot. A big step up from the first one, which was well-made but meandering, with more sense of purpose and focus, although I thought that Bill's domestic trauma was too contrived and Wendy's too irrelevant.
I actually found the Manson interview a bit underwhelming - he came across more as an irritating twit than anything else - but thought that the other killers, especially the teenage procurer and the smirking leather man, were really good. And Wayne Williams too of course. To echo another poster, I'm really impressed by most of the casting for these parts.

Aside: I'm disappointed that Netflix doesn't have Mindhunter profile icons. I really wanted Ed Kemper.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Inspector Norse on September 08, 2019, 07:35:03 PM
he came across more as an irritating twit than anything else

That was the point (hence the particular focus on the bit with the sunglasses, Bill's subsequent "told you so" attitude, and Holden's disappointment), and he was an irritating tit (to everyone who wasn't off their chump on hallucinogens) in reality.