The Great American Novel

[Serge]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I recently read Nathan Hill's excellent The Nix, which I would say is the latest in a long line of books that could probably be termed The Great American Novel. The Wikipedia definition goes as follows:

The idea of the "Great American Novel" is the concept of a novel of high literary merit which shows the culture of the United States at a specific time in the country's history. The novel is presumably written by an American author who is knowledgeable about the state, culture, and perspective of the common American citizen. Said author uses the literary work to identify and exhibit the language used by the American people of the time and to capture the unique American experience, especially as it is perceived for the time. In historical terms, it is sometimes equated as being the American response to the national epic.

I would add to this that, generally speaking, the Great American Novel will usually be a weighty book, and the author may try and cram in as many things that are on his mind as possible. I have to admit that the latter part is more usual in post-late '90s novels, and the template for this (although some examples predate it) would be Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections, wherein the lives of the Lambert family members take them to various points of the States (and the wider World) in an attempt to comment on various unconnected topics. I still haven't got around to reading Freedom, but Purity also follows this pattern. As does the Nathan Hill novel I mentioned, which could definitely be seen as post-Franzen.

Most of the other examples I would give have all been published in the last twenty years - Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures Of Kavalier And Clay, Glen David Gold's Sunnyside (possibly not 'Carter Beats The Devil', though), Jonathan Lethem's Fortress Of Solitude and Jeffrey Eugenide's Middlesex for a start - all of which I would say are among the best books I've read in that time period, and the ambition behind them is to be admired.

Paul Auster's 4 3 2 1 can certainly be seen as a more recent example of this, and I think maybe his earlier works Moon Palace and Leviathan are certainly stabs at the GAN without having the heft of the other books I've mentioned. Which is not to say they're not great books, but there is something satisfying about holding a book of 500-600 pages or more in your hands and knowing that this is the World you're going to be involved in for the next few days. Thinking about it, most of James Ellroy's books from American Tabloid onwards are probably stabs at the GAN in the disguise of genre fiction, which means that they probably don't get taken as seriously as yer Franzens or yer Chabons.

So, are there any other fans out there? And can you recommend any good examples from pre-1990, as I don't think I've read many of the titles which would be considered Great American Novels from before then. The Great Gatsby is definitely a favourite, but I did struggle with John Updike, Richard Ford and Don DeLillo (though I'm willing to give the latter two another go.) Do other countries have similar things - is there such a thing as The Great British Novel? (My first nomination for the latter, abiding by my rules for the GAN, would be John Lanchester's Capital.)

[Dr Syntax Head]

On The Road for me. The part where Kerouac gets a ride on the back of a truck is pure joy.

[newbridge]

I always thought the term referred to a hypothetical the Great American Novel, through which American writers would finally redeem themselves as compared to the greats of European literature. Which renders the term unnecessary, because that novel was already written in 1851 by Herman Melville.

Under your definition, The Grapes of Wrath comes to mind.

[Serge]

I always thought the term referred to a hypothetical the Great American Novel, through which American writers would finally redeem themselves as compared to the greats of European literature.

That's a good point, I suppose I had never really thought too deeply about the actual origins of the phrase! But I suppose now it is largely used as some kind of target for certain authors to hit when they set out to write their next novel - "This, THIS, will finally be The Great American Novel, the novel to end all novels, no-one else need write one after I've finished this!" OK, that's over-stating it, but you get my drift.

I really should read more Steinbeck.

[Talulah, really!]

[Tag]Philip Roth storms out the thread....etc,etc[/tag]

The obvious one would be Saul Bellow's The Adventures of Augie March which is truly great though I have always had a soft spot (and a reinforced shelf) for Normal Mailer's Harlot's Ghost a 1300 page fictional history of the CIA as the symbolic soul of America, it is in its magisterial canvas more than capable of taking on Le Carre, Pynchon and Delillo on their home turf, bridging vast gulfs in its learning and ideas, shifting from high philosophical flight to tawdry vulgarity, it is overwhelming and overwrought and occasionally for a novel published in 1991 right on the nose.

"Sometimes I think our future existence will depend on whether we can keep false information from proliferating too rapidly. If our power to verify the facts does not keep pace, then distortions of information will eventually choke us."

Two more recent examples of the genre for me would be Jennifer Egan's equally prescient Look at Me and Donna Tartt's The Goldfinch.

[zomgmouse]

Under your definition, The Grapes of Wrath comes to mind.

I was gonna suggest East of Eden.

[Serge]

[Tag]Philip Roth storms out the thread....etc,etc[/tag]

Roth and Bellow are both authors I've been meaning to get around to for years. Is there any particular Roth novel you'd recommend? I'll order Augie March when I'm next at work.....

I've had Egan's A Visit From The Goon Squad on my shelf for a while....it's now currently in storage......so maybe I'll order Look At Me as well. Looking them both up (Augie and Look), I see that they're both reassuringly thick books...!

As for Tartt, I did try to read The Secret History but really struggled, and don't think I got beyond page 20, so I'm not champing at the bit to read her again any time soon.

[Astronaut Omens]

Taken as a trilogy, the Phillip Roth sequence of American Pastoral, I Married a Communist and the Human Stain is definitely attempting something of what you're talking about- though the three books are set, respectively, in the 60's, the 50's and the 90's respectively, they're all set in the same part of New Jersey, and all deal with somewhat analogous problems:"straight" American society versus Weathermen-style hippy terrorists in the first book, Communists versus McCarty-ites in the second, campus culture wars over race and political correctness in the third. I only really loved I Married a Communist, possibly because it was the first Roth I'd read, and he does repeat himself a bit, but also because it was the most hopeful. There is a lot of awful people being awful in some of his other books.

I guess Talulah, really! was joking about his book that is actually called "The Great American Novel"! (Don't know who came up with the phrase).

[Astronaut Omens]

If there is a US novel that captures the spirit of the hippy dream curdling better than Joan Didion's non-fiction Slouching Towards Bethlehem, I'd love to read it. Her essay on the Manson murders in the following book The White Album is kind of surplus to requirements, you already know that something awful is going to happen from the first book

[Astronaut Omens]

As for Tartt, I did try to read The Secret History but really struggled, and don't think I got beyond page 20, so I'm not champing at the bit to read her again any time soon.

I'm really surprised at that, The Secret History has been my go-to book to recommend to people who've given up on reading for years! It's always worked!

[Talulah, really!]

I guess Talulah, really! was joking about his book that is actually called "The Great American Novel"! (Don't know who came up with the phrase).

Yes, that was what I was alluding to. Have read some Philip Roth, not that one though as it is about baseball, a subject that always makes my eyes glaze over, as does any mention of cricket. Think it is near enough obligatory to start with Portnoy's Complaint which has the benefit of being one of the rare books described by literary critics as a comedy that is actually laugh out loud funny, (it's about masturbation and Jewish Mothers - good material to work with).

Looking them both up (Augie and Look), I see that they're both reassuringly thick books...!

Oh, I totally agree any 'Great American Novel' as a genre should be a wristbreaker (not you Portnoy's Complaint, not you) of at least 500 pages, in fact, in essence it should be some sort of attempt to weld together  some form of high art with the immersive world of the Airport Bestseller, to find a place where Henry James and Arthur Halley meet.

As for Tartt, I did try to read The Secret History but really struggled, and don't think I got beyond page 20, so I'm not champing at the bit to read her again any time soon.

Whilst I liked it, in my memory The Secret History is rather a monochrome book, The Goldfinch is a more gloriously coloured work, with something of Dickens sweep and verve, moving from New York money to Las Vegas lowlife whilst showing the reader just how much research Tartt has done into the antiques' trade and their forgers' tricks.

[Serge]

I guess Talulah, really! was joking about his book that is actually called "The Great American Novel"! (Don't know who came up with the phrase).

Ah, I get that now! I guess his giving it that name is along the same lines as Faust recording a track and calling it 'Krautrock' - appropriating a term that might get thrown at them anyway before anyone has a chance.

If there is a US novel that captures the spirit of the hippy dream curdling better than Joan Didion's non-fiction Slouching Towards Bethlehem, I'd love to read it. Her essay on the Manson murders in the following book The White Album is kind of surplus to requirements, you already know that something awful is going to happen from the first book

Have you read Emma Cline's The Girls?

I'm really surprised at that, The Secret History has been my go-to book to recommend to people who've given up on reading for years! It's always worked!

Yeah, I can't remember any specifics about why I didn't like it - I picked it up around the time it came out because it had got so much buzz, but it just didn't click with me.

Have read some Philip Roth, not that one though as it is about baseball, a subject that always makes my eyes glaze over, as does any mention of cricket.

Ah, the sport element would put me right off as well, so maybe I'll give that one a miss.

[slapasoldier]

The Great American Novel is not a novel at all. It's an LP. Straight Outta Compton.

[holyzombiejesus]

is there such a thing as The Great British Novel?

Autumn by Ali Smith.

[nedthemumbler]

Whilst I liked it, in my memory The Secret History is rather a monochrome book, The Goldfinch is a more gloriously coloured work, with something of Dickens sweep and verve, moving from New York money to Las Vegas lowlife whilst showing the reader just how much research Tartt has done into the antiques' trade and their forgers' tricks.

The Goldfinch was enjoyable, but I really loved her earlier The Little Friend.  A greasy slice of dirty south terror, featuring hilllbilllies gone pyschotic with meth and the charming escapades of a plucky young heroine.



Also, Bonfire of the Vanities has a pretty valid claim to the thread title, I believe.  Though perhaps it The Great 80s, Gordon Gekko greed is good, American novel.

[holyzombiejesus]

Jane Smiley's Last Hundred Years Trilogy should feature. I really enjoyed Some Luck but by the time I'd got round to getting the second one, I'd forgotten what had happened and don't want to go back and re-read 700 pages.

[Serge]

I had a similar problem with James Ellroy's Underworld USA Trilogy. I read American Tabloid and thought it was magnificent. When The Cold Six Thousand came out, I started to read it, but realised I'd forgotten a lot of the plot strands from 'Tabloid', so decided to re-read that first. Of course, I found it magnificent again, but then found 'Cold Six Thousand' a drag after that. I've got Blood's A Rover on my shelf, but wonder if I'll ever get around to reading it, as it seems likely that I'll have to re-read the first two parts.....

[zomgmouse]

My mind yesterday went to All the King's Men, which I read about ten years ago and still think back to. Wonderful.

[Astronaut Omens]

Have you read Emma Cline's The Girls?

Is it any good? I avoided that because , maybe wrongly, I assumed it would go into too much gory detail about the Tate murders, which is not really what I'm after.

[Serge]

As I remember it, it doesn't go into too much detail - they're fictionalised anyway, so it doesn't describe the actual murders that took place, and the murder scenes only take up a couple of pages. Here's what I wrote about it in the old Books thread:

The Girls by Emma Cline, which is absolutely bloody fantastic. I was worried it might be one of those books whose hype would build it up too much, but it's one of the best-written books I've read in a long time. Admittedly, the way it's sometimes being sold as 'the Manson Family book' doesn't help, and it both is and isn't that (presumably for legal reasons, the Manson character is called Russell Hadrick, and the Dennis Wilson character is Mitch Davies, and the murders are different) - although Russell looms large in the book, it's not really about him, it's about young Evie Boyd and the way she is bewitched by the otherness of the girls who follow Russell around, partly because they act as a stand in for her absent recently-divorced parents, but mainly because they live outside of the world as she knows it. I can't rave about it highly enough, it's fantastic, and I can't wait to see what Cline does next.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Does John Edward Williams' Stoner count? It should.

[Serge]

It certainly does in my book! Does anyone know if any of his other novels worth checking out?

My copies of 'The Adventures Of Augie March' and 'Look At Me' arrived at work today, so they're next on my list.

[jobotic]

I had a similar problem with James Ellroy's Underworld USA Trilogy. I read American Tabloid and thought it was magnificent. When The Cold Six Thousand came out, I started to read it, but realised I'd forgotten a lot of the plot strands from 'Tabloid', so decided to re-read that first. Of course, I found it magnificent again, but then found 'Cold Six Thousand' a drag after that. I've got Blood's A Rover on my shelf, but wonder if I'll ever get around to reading it, as it seems likely that I'll have to re-read the first two parts.....

I wouldn't bother anyway, it's nowhere near as good as the first two.

[Serge]

I remember it got mixed reviews on here. I picked it up second hand a few years ago, so it's not like I made a massive investment, but still feel I should get around to it one day.

[holyzombiejesus]

It certainly does in my book! Does anyone know if any of his other novels worth checking out?

I love Stoner but wouldn't have said it fits. It's too small, if you get what I mean. I've read Butcher's Crossing by the same author and really enjoyed that. It's very different to Stoner, less elegiac and with a more involving storyline. It's not great on female characters - I think the only woman in it is a prostitute - but I'd still definitely recommend it. There's another of his books that have been reprinted, something set in Roman times I think, but that doesn't appeal.

[Serge]

Well, I made it three pages into The Adventures Of Augie March before giving up. I might try and give it another go when my brain is less frazzled from work, but it took me about fifteen minutes to read them and I didn't understand most of it. Maybe it settles down later, but I'll have to find out some other time. I'm going to try Look At Me next.

[studpuppet]

I liked Don DeLillo's Underworld; I think it's probably the only novel I've read in this category.

[Old Nehamkin]

It certainly does in my book! Does anyone know if any of his other novels worth checking out?

Augustus is a pretty exemplary piece of historical fiction in a similar vein to I, Claudius and Thornton Wilder's The Ides of March.  Butcher's Crossing is a McCarthy-esque western about wanderlust and nihilism. They're both very good.

[Serge]

Christ, I just misread Thornton Wilder as Willie Thorne. CaB now has full control of my mind.

[Neville Chamberlain]

Christ, I just misread Thornton Wilder as Willie Thorne. CaB now has full control of my mind.

Or, more specifically, our very own Willie Thorne-obsessed biggy has control of your mind ;-)