Graphic novel ignorance

[Icehaven]

Jesus wept. On BBC News right now there's 3 adults who are all only probably in their mid to late 40s looking at today's papers and discussing an article about graphic novels. The one who has supposedly read the article and is leading the discussion is calling them 'a new form', one of them has apparently never even heard of them at all and thought it meant graphic as in explicit, and the general conversation was about how they can actually be good and aren't just comics for kids. I know it might have been a bit deliberate for the folks at home but if so it was a dumbing down too far, and I can't believe there's still a need for this kind of conversation about them in 2017. Maus won a Pulitzer prize 25 years ago ffs. Or am I wrong and the vast majority of people still have no idea there's comics aimed at adults and about something other than superheroes? 

[Glebe]

That's ridiculously out of touch.

[Z]

Graphic novel always sounds to me like a term that would be used by people who are insecure about the artistic merit of comics and want to separate the bits they like from the bits they're embarrassed by.

[Serge]

I have had the odd customer who thinks that 'graphic novel' means they contain nothing but sex and violence, but on the whole, I think most people know what they are. I have a friend who works for Titan Books, and like to wind him up by calling them 'comic books'. I have a few by Daniel Clowes and Chris Ware, and some of the obvious Alan Moore-scripted ones, but have never gone too far down that road, as I already have music, books, movies and TV, and think that getting obsessed with graphic novels - as I know I easily could - would be just one too many things for me to be coping with.

[Icehaven]

Yeah I'm obviously a big fan (hence my username on here) so I thought maybe I was just a bit deluded/hopeful in thinking most sentient adults at least knew what they were,but I think they do, which is why it was weird watching these 3 ''media people'' talk about them as if they were really esoteric and new.

[Gulftastic]

Fuck 'Graphic Novels'. I still call them Trade Paperbacks.

[Pranet]

I think a surprising number of people still think comics mean the Beano, from my experience.

[garbed_attic]

Comics as sold in bookstores have much greater visibility than they used to, but I have no idea what the sales of most Ignatz Award winners are like.

[Bhazor]

Someone who calls them graphic novels is a cunt.

[Delete Delete Delete]

Huge fan the Super Hero genre, to be fair it consumes all my time just reading them, rather than branch out into other genres. Even then i'm mainly a Marvel guy, mainly because of all the licensed stuff they printing in the 80's when I was a kid. It does irk me a bit, when you get graphic novel cunts looking down on the capes.
I've always been of the opinion is have confidence in what you like, instead of feeling the need to install  a greater worth in what you like over what other people like. Someone who likes JLS or EastEnders is having as much fun in there likes as somebody who reads illustrated books on the subject of  anthropomorphised tales on the Holocaust.   

[Small Man Big Horse]

Huge fan the Super Hero genre, to be fair it consumes all my time just reading them, rather than branch out into other genres. Even then i'm mainly a Marvel guy, mainly because of all the licensed stuff they printing in the 80's when I was a kid. It does irk me a bit, when you get graphic novel cunts looking down on the capes.
I've always been of the opinion is have confidence in what you like, instead of feeling the need to install  a greater worth in what you like over what other people like. Someone who likes JLS or EastEnders is having as much fun in there likes as somebody who reads illustrated books on the subject of  anthropomorphised tales on the Holocaust.

Bar Ms Marvel and Squirrel Girl I'm not reading anything Marvel at the moment, and heard the recent Civil War II was a bag of balls, have things improved any since then? And are there any stand out titles you'd recommend?

[touchingcloth]

Or am I wrong and the vast majority of people still have no idea there's comics aimed at adults and about something other than superheroes?

I'm not familiar with the form, but are Marvel things technically aimed at adults? From my position - admittedly one of ignorance - "graphic novel" does just seem a way for adults to quell the cognitive dissonance of enjoying comics.

I say all of that as someone who quite regularly dips back into the Harry Potter books, so I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with adults enjoying things which are commonly viewed as being "for" kids, my leaning is more towards calling a spade a spade and a comic a comic.

[Delete Delete Delete]

I did enjoy the run where Captain America was a Hydra agent. Marvels at a bit of weird point now. Its currently bringing back old version of characters after doing a series of runs with new version of characters. Its quite annoying how the events keep upsetting the numbering. Like Dan Slotts Spiderman run is now over 4 or 5 volumes. I'm a trade waiter and am always a couple of years behind anyway, as the TBP's can be picked up cheaper then. I'm currently working my way some of the epic collections, such as Peter Davids Hulk run and some late 80's Thor.

[Icehaven]

I'm not familiar with the form, but are Marvel things technically aimed at adults? From my position - admittedly one of ignorance - "graphic novel" does just seem a way for adults to quell the cognitive dissonance of enjoying comics.

I say all of that as someone who quite regularly dips back into the Harry Potter books, so I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with adults enjoying things which are commonly viewed as being "for" kids, my leaning is more towards calling a spade a spade and a comic a comic.

I've read hundreds of graphic novels/comics (I don't give a fuck what they're called and have no compunction whatsoever about using either term, or picture book, or drawn literature, or any other either name either childish or pretentious enough to appease everyone) but not much if any Marvel/DC superhero type stuff, not because I think it's for kids or that there's anything wrong with adults reading it even if it is, just because it doesn't really appeal to me. A lot of the type of stuff I like (Fantagraphics Books, Dark Horse Comics, Chris Ware, Seth, Dan Clowes, Scott McCloud, Adrian Tomine, Joe Sacco etc.) is, I would say, aimed at adults, largely because it's got adult themes and storylines and are frequently graphic in both senses of the word. They don't really appeal to and aren't appropriate for children for the same reasons Crime and Punishment or Irvine Welsh or Hilary Mantel aren't.

[Small Man Big Horse]

I did enjoy the run where Captain America was a Hydra agent. Marvels at a bit of weird point now. Its currently bringing back old version of characters after doing a series of runs with new version of characters. Its quite annoying how the events keep upsetting the numbering. Like Dan Slotts Spiderman run is now over 4 or 5 volumes. I'm a trade waiter and am always a couple of years behind anyway, as the TBP's can be picked up cheaper then. I'm currently working my way some of the epic collections, such as Peter Davids Hulk run and some late 80's Thor.

Hmmmm, think I'll give current comics a miss until they return to form then as it doesn't sound that exciting.

[Phil_A]

I'm not familiar with the form, but are Marvel things technically aimed at adults? From my position - admittedly one of ignorance - "graphic novel" does just seem a way for adults to quell the cognitive dissonance of enjoying comics.

I say all of that as someone who quite regularly dips back into the Harry Potter books, so I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with adults enjoying things which are commonly viewed as being "for" kids, my leaning is more towards calling a spade a spade and a comic a comic.

I would say kids haven't been the target audience of DC and Marvel's comics output for a very long time, not for the last twenty-five years at least.

Essentially the target market of both the big two comic publishers is mostly 20-30 somethings with a large disposable income. There have been all-ages comics such as the ones based on the Batman/Superman animated series, but the main titles, the ones that still sell(e.g. Batman, X-Men, Justice League etc), are pitched pretty much at adults who already buy them. This is the reason this area of publishing(as in single issue comics) has been experiencing a slow death, as both Marvel and DC continue to squeeze a dwindling market for all it's worth. In fact even these most mainstream comics usually sell at loss, with the companies making their money back through sales of graphic novels/trade paperbacks/whatever we're calling them currently.

In Marvel's case, it's a puzzling fact that they've singularly failed to translate the massive success of their movies into comics sales, when you'd think the publishing world would be their oyster. It's a bit baffling that they still haven't figured this out yet.

Another reason they go for the collectors is that kids as a rule don't have a lot of money. Bare in mind comics buying is an expensive hobby now as well, gone are the days when they could be picked up for pennies at any corner shop. This is partly to do with the way Marvel rigged the distribution system in the early nineties, effectively taking comics off the newsstands entirely, but that's a very long and complicated story. Kids aren't likely to be able to convince their parents to buy 50 variant covers of a single issue(and yes, they do that. It's shamelessly mercenary but people still fall for it). But an adult collector with cash to burn is a viable target, because you wouldn't want to have an incomplete set, would you?

Of course, this is all just marketing and doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the work being produced - and some of it is good, despite the inherent cynicism that drives the industry.

[DocDaneeka]

There are also people like Raina Telgemeira whose "Graphic Novels" aimed at children outsell all of DC/Marvel's comic output put together.

[Dr Rock]

Why are some books called 'novels' and other works of fiction don't tend to get that phrase. I mean books here, not comics. You might hear 'Oh I've just bought the new novel by Zadie Smith' whereas I've never heard the Harry Potter books called novels. Is it because they are shit, or not fancy and that?

I reckon plenty of people have no idea what a graphic novel is, and yes, think comics are basically the Beano, and comics are cartoons and vice-versa. They have no interest in any of it.

[Phil_A]

Why are some books called 'novels' and other works of fiction don't tend to get that phrase. I mean books here, not comics. You might hear 'Oh I've just bought the new novel by Zadie Smith' whereas I've never heard the Harry Potter books called novels. Is it because they are shit, or not fancy and that?

Just semantics really, isn't it. I suppose calling something a novel can be a bit of a dismissive term, like it's supposed to be something less worthy than Real Literature, when I think ultimately the worth of a book is up to the individual reader to decide.

[Norton Canes]

I think graphic novels had their 15 minutes (months) of fame in the late 80's then vanished back into relative obscurity with only occasional titles like Persepolis peeking above the parapets. There may be more of them in high street book stores than ever but they seem very much a niche thing, much like 'troubled fiction' or whatever those The Boy Who Shat Avocados type books are called.

I'm on a massive 2000 AD catch-up right now and I'm aiming to get my bookshelf looking like the Rebellion section of Forbidden Planet.

[kidsick5000]

I put the lack of acceptance down to a few things.

There has been a lack of a champion. Someone knowledgable about the more highbrow, the superhero stuff and the kids stuff yet - and this is crucial - likeable.
Not some odd mannered weirdo (Gaiman) or comic book nerd who gets tiresomely excited about every flap of a cape (too many to mention).

It needs something to normalise the genre, take out the pretences, demystify it and call bullshit on stuff.

Comics needs its Keith Floyd.

[Mister Six]

"Graphic Nov" is a bit wanky, but the truly pretentious call them "sequential narratives".

[bgmnts]

If Alan Moore thinks the term graphic novel is pretentious, its pretentious.

[Sin Agog]

They kind of are accepted, aren't they?  They're tapped for billion dollar moving pictures at electric lighthouses everywhere.  And each generation of curious young 'uns tends to find Grant Morrison and Clowes and Warren Ellis if they're so inclined.

Maybe their audience does plateau to a point it never expands beyond, though. One trouble might be that so many series like Top Ten, Astro City and Miraclemen are all allusive send-ups of the comic book industry.  It's obsessed with its own lore and legacy, probably because, shamans that they are, people like Morrison and Moore grew up slightly enfeebled kids who learnt to explore their imaginations through comics. When it comes time for them to write their own, they canne help but pay homage to that.  Must be a tad alienating for someone looking to dive in after finding some Best Graphic Novels Ever list, only to find they need to do homework first before it all makes sense.

[bgmnts]

They kind of are accepted, aren't they?  They're tapped for billion dollar moving pictures at electric lighthouses everywhere.  And each generation of curious young 'uns tends to find Grant Morrison and Clowes and Warren Ellis if they're so inclined.

Maybe their audience does plateau to a point it never expands beyond, though. One trouble might be that so many series like Top Ten, Astro City and Miraclemen are all allusive send-ups of the comic book industry.  It's obsessed with its own lore and legacy, probably because, shamans that they are, people like Morrison and Moore grew up slightly enfeebled kids who learnt to explore their imaginations through comics. When it comes time for them to write their own, they canne help but pay homage to that.  Must be a tad alienating for someone looking to dive in after finding some Best Graphic Novels Ever list, only to find they need to do homework first before it all makes sense.

Moore is interesting as, from the interviews i've seen, he didnt seem to be a shy, weak nerd. He was a haughty little bugger, by his account.

I've dipped in and out of X-Men for years and I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it'd be to jump in, at any point. It's so exclusive.

[Sin Agog]

Haha I did literally make up that fact about both of them, but figured if I said it all matter of fact like no one would call me out on it.

[bgmnts]

I think you need to take comic books more seriously, mate.

[Sin Agog]

If they were meant to be taken seriously they'd be called Serious Books.