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Peter Bagge

Started by Tlentifini Maarhaysu, November 06, 2017, 01:12:33 AM

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Tlentifini Maarhaysu

I recently bought the Complete Neat Stuff (two hefty hardback books) along with Buddy Does Seattle and Buddy Does Jersey - the collected Hate comics - from Fantagraphics, and I was left with the overall impression that while Peter Bagge is a very talented illustrator and storyteller, his quality control is lousy and for every good strip there are at least three crap ones.

Neat Stuff, the anthology title he did back in the eighties, is stylistically and tonally all over the place, which is both its strength and its weakness - for every Bradleys strip or Girly Girl and Chuckie Boy strip, which come over as concentrated blasts of utter insanity, there's a long, rambling 'isn't everything awful and I'm too cynical to have any friends and I just want to stay in bed all day drinking coffee and listening to the Beach Boys' pile o' shit featuring the Leeways or bloody Studs Kirby. Toward the end of the run, you could tell Bagge's heart wasn't in it any more, and he was doing these long, wordless strips with Junior drawing boobs, throwing them away, fishing them out of the rubbish bin, piecing them together... on and on it goes, and to what end? Instead of his mother being furious with him for drawing boobs, he's lauded as a modern art genius. That's as cliché as it gets, like all those boring 'aren't we naughty' underground comics that are nothing but close-ups of cocks and vaginas and characters smokin' da weed man. Yet in the very same issue, there are several strips with the Goon on the Moon and his enthusiasm for pornography and strip clubs, and they're brilliant. The final issue, which pretty much established Buddy Bradley as a solo star and paved the way for Hate, was also very strong.

As for Hate... again, moments of sheer shining brilliance alongside page after page of unutterable crap seems to be the pattern here. I don't know if Bagge has or had some real-life problems with women that left him scarred for life, but nearly ALL the female characters in Hate are paranoid / neurotic / hysterically negative / utter screwballs in varying degrees of extremity. There are long (and I do mean LONG) segments where you get nothing but the characters screeching and arguing with each other for page after page until there's no room for anything to breathe, and definitely nothing to laugh at. The most settled (and eventually successful) character is George Hamilton Jr, which seems to suggest to the reader that all the other characters who actually go out into the world and try to accomplish something with their lives and have actual adventures (however depraved) are nothing but reckless losers, and what we should all be doing is living as oddball computer nerd recluses with incredibly negative attitudes, a bit like Tolkien's characters in Lord of the Rings who seem convinced that there's no point in going anywhere, doing anything or changing in any way when we could all be living in holes, eating sausages and smoking pipes.

I wanted to like these books a lot more than I actually did, and I can certainly appreciate the skill and artistry behind them, but... I dunno. I just think Bagge needs to lighten up and produce something genuinely funny, zany and infectious. He's certainly got that in him, I think.

Brundle-Fly

Hmm, not sure I agree with you entirely. Once again, it's the context of time.

I started buying his comics in the late eighties onwards and they blew me away. He had a very unique voice to me and his wild 'n' curvy art style was so fresh. Bagge was one of those figures who got me back into comics because I had lost interest in the form. I was never a super hero kind of guy preferring satire, humour and horror.

Regarding Hate, which I think is a comic series that shoud be filed alongside the Pickwick Papers, I don't recall the female characters being anymore fucked up than the male characters. Half the time, everybody in the strip is a selfish, lazy, furious, vain, hateful doofus. This is a world of dysfunction and I loved the fact it was panel after panel of characters screaming at each other. Hilarious. The anti-Doonesbury.



Have you tried the more recent stuff Apocalypse Nerd, Other Lives , Reset or Sweatshop?  These last two had me belly laughing on certain pages

BTW Bagge is superb at depicting crotchety old men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wusBujhXxoc

Chriddof

I'm also not much of a fan of Bagge. I do respect him to a certain degree, but there was (and remains) this weird, very particular brand of young fogeyism about him and his work that I notice in a number of American alt comics of the time (late 80s / early 90s - a lot of obsessing over Ernie bloody Bushmiller, etc). At least in his case, it has a tendency to tip into shitty old South Park-esque libertarianism (see: his strips for Reason Magazine).

I'm also not much of a fan of his art style. I can see why it would look so startling at the time, and indeed it still looks unique today... but it's just incredibly unappealing to me personally. Not to mention that endless arguments in comic form is not something I want to read either.

Dr Rock

I pretty much love everything he's done and his art style I think is very effective. Girly-Girl might be my favourite character, but one of the funniest bits he's ever done is when Studs Kirby gets increasingly drunk and angry at the radio, before deciding to set off to the radio station to let them have it. While saying 'THIS IS THE SMARTEST THING I'VE EVER DONE!'




Several pages later




Anyway I love me my Neat Stuff.

Dr Rock

Also the curtains I have in my living room have a tree motif. But if you look at it a different way it's Stinky's face.



Brundle-Fly

My tee -shirt of choice circa 1991?


Brundle-Fly

Quote from: Chriddof on November 07, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
I'm also not much of a fan of Bagge. I do respect him to a certain degree, but there was (and remains) this weird, very particular brand of young fogeyism about him and his work that I notice in a number of American alt comics of the time (late 80s / early 90s - a lot of obsessing over Ernie bloody Bushmiller, etc). At least in his case, it has a tendency to tip into shitty old South Park-esque libertarianism (see: his strips for Reason Magazine).

I'm also not much of a fan of his art style. I can see why it would look so startling at the time, and indeed it still looks unique today... but it's just incredibly unappealing to me personally. Not to mention that endless arguments in comic form is not something I want to read either.

I don't subscribe necessarily to Bagge's world view but everything you seem to dislike is ambrosia to me.

bushwick

Bagge has been a massive influence on me, for better or worse. His stint as editor of Weirdo in the 80s helped shape my teenage brain - nihilist, wilfully puerile punk rock vibes that really gelled with all the US hardcore and weird noise rock I was listening to. The magazine was a little too quiet/refined for my tastes when Crumb edited it and got a bit too intellectual when Bagge left and Aline Kominsky-Crumb took over.

I like Neat Stuff and the really dumb offensive strips like Martini Baton. Definitely think Hate is one of the best comic series ever and a great 'alt-90s' time capsule. Haven't wanted to read anything by him since - his 'young fogey' (spot on whoever said that) tendencies led him to libertarianism which really put me off him. Seems a common thing for (white male) cartoonists who spend a lot of time on their own (see also Steve Ditko and Frank Miller although Bagge is nowhere near those levels of fuckedness).

I hate him in a way because his art style influenced my cartooning so much over the years I am now consciously trying not to draw like him - all those popping out tongues and eyeballs and bendy limbs. He's a great draughtsman but I am done with that overly-cartoony style.

Brundle-Fly

The accidental death of one of the main characters in Hate still has to be the most shocking moment ever in a comic for me. Totally wrongfooted me.  I heartily recommend this compilation too while I'm here.



01   The Association   Come On In
02   The Beach Boys   This Whole World
03   Todd Rundgren   It Wouldn't Have Made Any Difference   
04   Jan And Dean   The New Girl In School
05   The Ohio Express   Down At Lulu's
06   Tommy Roe   Sweet Pea   
07   Herman's Hermits   A Must To Avoid   
08   The Hollies   I Can't Let Go
09   KC And The Sunshine Band   I'm So Crazy ('Bout You)
10   Spice Girls   Stop   Spice Girls
11   New Edition   Count Me Out
12   The Jacksons   Give It Up   
13   10CC   The Sacro-iliac   
14   The Posies.    I May Hate You Sometimes   
15   The Raspberries    Tonight
16   The Knack    It's You   
17   Blondie   Sunday Girl   
18   BowWowWow   C30 C60 C90 Go!   
19   The Action Suits     Fun Flies   

Dr Rock

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on November 08, 2017, 04:55:01 PM
The accidental death of one of the main characters in Hate still has to be the most shocking moment ever in a comic for me. Totally wrongfooted me. 

Same here.

ASFTSN

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on November 08, 2017, 04:55:01 PM
The accidental death of one of the main characters in Hate still has to be the most shocking moment ever in a comic for me.

Yes - and how he continues to feature in the comic after his demise!  There's one single pager about Buddy's brother dealing with it that is seared into my mind!

I loved Hate all the way to its much-maligned most recent volumes. I'm ashamed to say I haven't read anything else by him - had my eye on Apocalypse Nerd though.

Quote from: bushwickSeems a common thing for (white male) cartoonists who spend a lot of time on their own (see also Steve Ditko and Frank Miller

And Chester Brown and Dave Sim and Joe Matt and plenty others I'm sure....

Brundle-Fly

Cartoonists/ illustrators in general are a particular breed. Rather like magicians. Too much time spent on their own - seething. And terrible backache.

Except Coop. He's a jolly pint-sized millionaire whose 'crib' is full of jukeboxes, pinball machines and voluptuous groupies like the ones from his pictures. Bastard.


ASFTSN

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on November 08, 2017, 05:09:01 PM
Cartoonists/ illustrators in general are a particular breed. Rather like magicians. Too much time spent on their own - seething. And terrible backache.

I can confirm.  Except for the magician bit.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: ASFTSN on November 08, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
I can confirm.  Except for the magician bit.

I forgot you were a cartoonist. Sorry to compare your lot to magicians. That was offensive.

ASFTSN

I more meant that there was far less magic involved!

I notice you left Apocalypse Nerd out of the Bagge stuff that made you laugh out loud, above. Worth a look though? I've heard mixed things (which I suppose could be a good sign)

ASFTSN

Am I the only Hate fan that thought they'd probably quite fancy crazy Lisa if she was a real person...?

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: ASFTSN on November 08, 2017, 07:15:33 PM
I more meant that there was far less magic involved!

I notice you left Apocalypse Nerd out of the Bagge stuff that made you laugh out loud, above. Worth a look though? I've heard mixed things (which I suppose could be a good sign)

I really liked it. Fans were attempting to crowd fund a movie but it seems post-apocalypse comedies ie- Roaches, that U.S one,got in first? 

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: ASFTSN on November 08, 2017, 07:20:19 PM
Am I the only Hate fan that thought they'd probably quite fancy crazy Lisa if she was a real person...?

Oh yes, Lisa RULES!!!




Mister Six

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on November 07, 2017, 04:07:24 PM
Regarding Hate, which I think is a comic series that shoud be filed alongside the Pickwick Papers, I don't recall the female characters being anymore fucked up than the male characters. Half the time, everybody in the strip is a selfish, lazy, furious, vain, hateful doofus. This is a world of dysfunction and I loved the fact it was panel after panel of characters screaming at each other. Hilarious. The anti-Doonesbury.

Agree with all of this. I picked up the two Buddy Does... books in the late 2000s and thought they were tremendously funny precisely because of the screeching hysteria of the awful characters, male and female - helped by that fantastic, exaggerated, OTT art. I don't think there's any great moral message other than "don't be like any of these guys" really.

Keep meaning to look into the early Bradleys strips, and the sporadic Buddy comics he put out in the decades since, but haven't got around to it yet.