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#lestweforget

Started by SpiderChrist, November 10, 2017, 09:50:01 AM

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biggytitbo

It's not about forgetting the lessons of history more about not wallowing in it and using it as propaganda about the present. That's what poppy day has become.

MoonDust

Does it make me a cunt that I negatively judge people - especially young people - who wear red poppies now? Because over the past decade, I really think the poppy has come to symbolise something else other than the soldiers of WW1 and WW2. So long as people aren't deluding themselves into thinking soldiers in WW1 sacrificed themselves for freedom, I've still no qualms if people wear a poppy for the WW1 dead, as I would still say need remembering in the context of how they were lied to, and the first world war was a European tragedy, not anything to glorify.

But these days, what with armed forces day and that, the poppy now seems to symbolise just support for the military in general, which given Iraq and that, is not something we should be proud about. Also compounded by the fact that 10 or 20 years ago, people selling poppies would be old veterans from the world war. There was something humble about it. Now they're sold by serving soldiers in wars they shouldn't be involved in. Not that that's the soldiers' faults, they don't decide who to go to war with.

But even so, if I see young people wearing poppies these days I do find myself thinking in my head "why are they wearing that? What do they think it means in this day and age?" I guess I could ask them, but that would be quite confrontational.

Also with that Poppy Watch twitter page, although is amusing, is also unnerving the amount of jingoism and nationalism now associated with the poppy. People saying you're a traitor if you don't wear one, or far right cunts saying they'd like to punch people who wear white poppies in the face.

The world's gone mad. Lest we forget. We've already forgotten. We've forgotten that the poppy isn't a symbol to promote militarism, it's a symbol to remind us war is fucking awful, even if we're fighting Nazis, it was still a nightmare to be directly involved in.

shiftwork2

Wearing a poppy has perhaps come to mean something more than mournful remembrance.  But it still signifies that for a lot of people, myself included.

MoonDust

Fair enough. I just feel it's been hijacked by the far right and jingoists. Like on Facebook, it seems most "Lest we forget" posts come from right wingers and far right pages like Britain First, EDL etc. I mean I know they don't represent the RBL, but I fear the far right are openly having a creeping monopoly on what the poppy stands for.

Replies From View

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on November 10, 2017, 10:52:15 AM
We remember service personnel killed in all conflicts with the poppy

I didn't even know that poppies could be used offensively.

Paul Calf


jobotic

I had a poppy on today but the fucker's fallen apart three times. I've had enough. Perhaps I'm not patriotic enough to wear one.

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"Lest we forget" is very uptight.  It has a school teacher's hectoring tone of "woe betide anyone who gets this wrong" about it.

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im barry bethel

Quote from: MoonDust on November 11, 2017, 11:01:25 AM
Also with that Poppy Watch twitter page, although is amusing, is also unnerving the amount of jingoism and nationalism now associated with the poppy. People saying you're a traitor if you don't wear one, or far right cunts saying they'd like to punch people who wear white poppies in the face.

The world's gone mad. Lest we forget. We've already forgotten. We've forgotten that the poppy isn't a symbol to promote militarism, it's a symbol to remind us war is fucking awful, even if we're fighting Nazis, it was still a nightmare to be directly involved in.

100yrs ago it was white feathers used to shame people, now it's not wearing a Poppy, endless cunts quoting Owen Sassoon and Kipling (ignorant of the fact Reccesional is a jubilee piece) who wouldn't sit through the first 5 minutes of J'accuse.

shiftwork2

Quote from: MoonDust on November 11, 2017, 11:41:40 AM
Fair enough. I just feel it's been hijacked by the far right and jingoists. Like on Facebook, it seems most "Lest we forget" posts come from right wingers and far right pages like Britain First, EDL etc. I mean I know they don't represent the RBL, but I fear the far right are openly having a creeping monopoly on what the poppy stands for.

I would agree with all that.

Dr Syntax Head

Quote from: MoonDust on November 11, 2017, 11:41:40 AM
Fair enough. I just feel it's been hijacked by the far right and jingoists. Like on Facebook, it seems most "Lest we forget" posts come from right wingers and far right pages like Britain First, EDL etc. I mean I know they don't represent the RBL, but I fear the far right are openly having a creeping monopoly on what the poppy stands for.

Dead on

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Quote from: king_tubby on November 10, 2017, 11:55:03 AM
POPPY TRUCK

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/royal-british-legion-threatens-poppy-truck-woman-legal-action/

Thanks for dying!

Two things to say to that:

Imagine anyone over the age of five marvelling at a red truck before then being more inspired than previously to donate to the poppy charity.

I was expecting the truck to have a trailer section.  What a swizz that it lacks one.

itsfredtitmus

Video games, video games, how do you do
Wasting your evenings on an afternoon poo

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Paul Calf

That truck is a perfect example: silhouetted warriors set against a misty backdrop. If it had this:

Warning: unpleasant - but not horrific - image from the Museum of War Remnants, Vietnam. There are far worse in the museum.

I'd have some sympathy, but it's another symptom of the glorification of war with which the poppy and remembrance movement has become associated. It's exactly the opposite of its founding purpose, and I won't contribute to such an organisation.


Paul Calf

It used to be called The Museum of Chinese And American War Crimes, but they changed it for some reason. PCGoneMad.

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Museum of People Fragmented in Needless Battle

Cloud

WWI was a senseless waste.  WWII is where I'd say people 'died for our freedom', pretty sure we'd all be speaking German right now if they hadn't.  To that extent "it's definitely not just about WWI" and about being thankful to my grandparent generation - but yeah the criticisms of attributing it to modern day farces like Iraq make sense, I don't want to glorify any of that either.  I'd say a lot of the military personnel believe they're doing these things to protect us due to brainwashing and propaganda which can be very powerful tools.  So it's kind of awkward.

Couple of years ago my mum crocheted poppies (there's some way you can do this officially through the legion) and I think that's fair enough.  It's not like she was thinking "come on let's send more people to die in pointless wars" in the process.  It's not intended in a fashion kind of way, you just get something a bit more robust than those crappy little paper things, know that someone put time into it and obviously donate again if you reuse it next year.

But the other day I went onto Amazon and the first thing I saw was a row of diamond encrusted poppies.  That crosses the line.  Fuck right off with that shit, commercialising it and turning it into a fashion statement is about as insulting to the fallen as it's possible to get.

Also stopped doing anything on Facebook about it after learning what virtue signalling is...

As for poppy fascism, having seen a recent episode of The Orville I can't help wondering how many downvotes someone would get for refusing to wear one on TV.  Off to correction you go...

Paul Calf

Quote from: Cloud on November 11, 2017, 12:25:21 PM
WWI was a senseless waste.  WWII is where I'd say people 'died for our freedom', pretty sure we'd all be speaking German right now if they hadn't.  To that extent "it's definitely not just about WWI" and about being thankful to my grandparent generation - but yeah the criticisms of attributing it to modern day farces like Iraq make sense, I don't want to glorify any of that either.  I'd say a lot of the military personnel believe they're doing these things to protect us due to brainwashing and propaganda which can be very powerful tools.  So it's kind of awkward.

It is, yes. I don't really blame most of the junior ranks who sign up - although it does concern me to deprive them of agency by absolving them of blame for their actions - but it's the politicians and senior ranks who send men and women knowingly to their deaths for causes irrelevant or actively harmful to almost everyone in the world, and Poppy is part of that.

Quote
As for poppy fascism, having seen a recent episode of The Orville I can't help wondering how many downvotes someone would get for refusing to wear one on TV.  Off to correction you go...

Hey! My grandad fought for the right for people to be forced to wear symbols of the glory of war...er...

Dr Rock

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 11, 2017, 12:38:40 PM
It is, yes. I don't really blame most of the junior ranks who sign up

You shouldn't be allowed to go anywhere near the army when you're 16. By the time you're 18 they'll have radicalised you good and proper.

Cloud

It's not even necessarily domestic.  One of my Facebook contacts ended up joining the army because he'd been inspired by Japanese anime with all its "protect the village! Put your life on the line!" stuff.

Johnny Yesno

Anyone else seeing a black armband around CaB?

Buelligan

Quote from: im barry bethel on November 11, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
100yrs ago it was white feathers used to shame people, now it's not wearing a Poppy, endless cunts quoting Owen...
Reading Wilfred Owen as a child validated one of the very first thoughts in this Buelligan's little head that perhaps we should not always follow orders and stand for the anthem and our betters.  Bring on the Owen, I say.  And the Sassoon!

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"Lest wifi get" would make a good slogan for a broadband company, I reckon.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on November 11, 2017, 02:47:34 PM
Anyone else seeing a black armband around CaB?

Gone now. What the fuck was that?

Rocket Surgery

[tag] Somme Mothers Don't 'Ave 'Em [/tag]

finnquark

Quote from: MoonDust on November 11, 2017, 11:01:25 AM
But even so, if I see young people wearing poppies these days I do find myself thinking in my head "why are they wearing that? What do they think it means in this day and age?" I guess I could ask them, but that would be quite confrontational.

Most of the students wearing poppies who are taking the course on WWI are doing so in remembrance of family members. I would say maybe one in 7 or 8 of my classes wear one.

Edit to add that, though it isn't my place to say so, I would encourage those with a desire to remember and mourn in a sincere way to wear a poppy. If only to avoid ceding the ground to the far-right. I'm not sure abandoning the idea of poppies is helpful if you're concerned about them being adopted by what you think are dangerous messages.

Sebastian Cobb

The megabus man on the megabus I got the other day had a poppy on it. Horrible corporate virtue signalling imo.