'New' Brexit Thread 2 - The Empire Strikes Back

[Johnny Yesno]

Leaving the EU and everything associated with it, having no more ties to the EU than any other country outside of it

Can't believe this is still being discussed

Duh! Brexit means brexit, Zetetic. Don't you anything?

[Zetetic]

Leaving the EU and everything associated with it, having no more ties to the EU than any other country outside of it

That's obviously not viable without massive economic disruption to the UK and a series of outcomes that go against much of what many Leavers want.

Some sort of arrangements over trade are necessary, and those will come with economic and political compromises. Whether those constitutes "more ties" is a matter of opinion - we're practically more tied to the member states of the EU than many other countries.

My post about several million miles doesn't involve any confusion about the EU and Europe - it recognises that one is a political expression of the other.

[Neville Chamberlain]

I bet Zetetic is sitting in a wine bar in London right now, stuffing his elitist face with frogs legs and foie gras!

[Zetetic]

Which leads us back to the problem that any Government will now face - there's no Brexit that better achieves either pragmatic or principled outcomes for either masses of Leavers or Remainers better than could have been achieved as a member state.

Everything at this point is trying to claw back some of the credibility and leverage that this provided.

[Zetetic]

I bet Zetetic is sitting in a wine bar in London right now, stuffing his elitist face with frogs legs and foie gras!

In spirit, I'm forever in a Costa in the Quedam. No Surprises plays on the tannoy outside.

[Neville Chamberlain]

The only Quedam I know is the one in Yeovil. And I have been to the Costa there.

[Zetetic]

Me too.

And No Surprises really was playing in the not-really-a-street bit outside, which seems a odd choice for a not-really-a-shopping-centre.

[brat-sampson]

That's obviously not viable without massive economic disruption to the UK and a series of outcomes that go against much of what many Leavers want.

Some sort of arrangements over trade are necessary, and those will come with economic and political compromises. Whether those constitutes "more ties" is a matter of opinion - we're practically more tied to the member states of the EU than many other countries.

My post about several million miles doesn't involve any confusion about the EU and Europe - it recognises that one is a political expression of the other.

PROJECT FEAR

See, all you have to do is willfully deny everything I bolded is true and you too can be a happy angry Express reader.

[Paulie Walnuts]

It's fine to defend unelected leaders but only when you do it. I see.

Dickhead.

Fuck me, I genuinely expect better from you

Gordon Brown was elected, people voted for him as a constituent, his party then made him leader. No-one voted for him as Prime Minister because that's not how our system works, but he was an entirely valid PM like May is.

No-one voted for Lord Adonis, nor can they attempt to vote him out. He is an example of an unelected "leader", not of a party, but he has power over us despite us not voting for him, or being able to get rid of him

This really is quite basic stuff

That's obviously not viable without massive economic disruption to the UK

This is day one stuff, you're still in denial about what the Brexit vote was. People listened to the claims of economic armageddon and voted to leave regardless. Possibly out of disbelief of those claims, possibly because they felt there were things more important than the economy. Either way, the decision has been made regardless of what you think might happen.

a series of outcomes that go against much of what many Leavers want.

That's quite a bold claim, I don't think anyone in the country, even the most sophisticated of polling companies could make such a claim

[Paulie Walnuts]

PROJECT FEAR

See, all you have to do is willfully deny everything I bolded is true and you too can be a happy angry Express reader.

We've had this argument, and you lost

I thought you'd be past the point of painting everyone who disagrees with you as a convenient charicature

[Johnny Yesno]

charicature

I wonder if the standard of English spelling will improve when we take back control.

[Neville Chamberlain]

I can't wait to get my blue passport. Or should I say, passeport bleu!

[DrGreggles]

I wonder if the standard of English spelling will improve when we take back control.

It was the correct spelling. It's just that the word doesn't exist yet.

[Zetetic]

My claims are not bold - it's not bold to argue that people wish to avoid economic ruin.

People listened to the claims of economic armageddon and voted to leave regardless. Possibly out of disbelief of those claims, possibly because they felt there were things more important than the economy.

Why fuss about fishing quotas and like if the economic component isn't relevant (setting aside some of the faulty reasoning at work in some of this fussing)?

The point is that we're still trying to work out how to implement the "decision" in a way that's meaningful and delivers at least some the spirit behind the vote to Leave, while compromising with the masses who didn't.

This is necessary because the decision is ambiguous and does little to describe what our future relationship with the EU and its member states is supposed to look like. You know this; please don't act thick.

[Fambo Number Mive]

...Theresa May was under pressure to reopen the issue of Britain's membership of a customs union after suffering two big defeats in the House of Lords on the government's key Brexit bill.

Peers backed an amendment to the EU withdrawal bill that would force the government to explain what it has done to pursue remaining in a customs union, by 348 votes to 225 – a convincing majority of 123.

The government suffered a significant rebellion on the amendment tabled by crossbench peer Lord Kerr, which received the backing of 24 Conservatives, including former ministers Lord Patten, Lord Heseltine and Lord Willetts. A separate amendment that would limit the power of ministers to slash red tape without the approval of parliament was also passed, by 314 votes to 217...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/18/ministers-to-announce-brexit-climbdown-as-they-face-lords-defeat

[BlodwynPig]

Lads, seems like its just best to knock all this Brexit stuff on the head and go back to how things were.

[Uncle TechTip]

Which leads us back to the problem that any Government will now face - there's no Brexit that better achieves either pragmatic or principled outcomes for either masses of Leavers or Remainers better than could have been achieved as a member state.

Everything at this point is trying to claw back some of the credibility and leverage that this provided.

I could see this - it's why I voted remain.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

People listened to the claims of economic armageddon and voted to leave regardless. Possibly out of disbelief of those claims, possibly because they felt there were things more important than the economy.

Why don't they apply this when asking whether they should vote Conservative?

[DrGreggles]

Lads, seems like its just best to knock all this Brexit stuff on the head and go back to how things were.

Sadly no one in power has the balls to do this.

[Paul Calf]

Leaving the EU and everything associated with it, having no more ties to the EU than any other country outside of it

Can't believe this is still being discussed

Which country? Norway? Cuba? India? Malawi?

[Paulie Walnuts]

What a strange group of countries to list, considering all the options you had

[Paulie Walnuts]

Sadly no one in power has the balls to do this.

Or the legal right to do it, thanks to Gina!

[Johnny Yesno]

A separate amendment that would limit the power of ministers to slash red tape without the approval of parliament was also passed, by 314 votes to 217...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/18/ministers-to-announce-brexit-climbdown-as-they-face-lords-defeat

Thank fuck for that.

[jobotic]

If the Rees-Moggs of this world see too many obstacles to removing workers' rights and becoming a tax haven they'll lose interest in Brexit.

[Buelligan]

Yes, we're well on course for every single person, no matter who they are or which way they voted, to not get what they want and life to be worse.  I think we can be proud of that.

[jamiefairlie]

My claims are not bold - it's not bold to argue that people wish to avoid economic ruin.

Why fuss about fishing quotas and like if the economic component isn't relevant (setting aside some of the faulty reasoning at work in some of this fussing)?

The point is that we're still trying to work out how to implement the "decision" in a way that's meaningful and delivers at least some the spirit behind the vote to Leave, while compromising with the masses who didn't.

This is necessary because the decision is ambiguous and does little to describe what our future relationship with the EU and its member states is supposed to look like. You know this; please don't act thick.

The problem is that you are possibly overestimating the basic decency of the English electorate. The voted to leave because of xenophobia, plain and simple. They know that it will be an economic clusterfuck but that is a price they are willing to pay to be rid of the foreigns. If you rerun the vote you would get much the same result. English exceptionalism runs deep at the core of the country and the people.

[Paul Calf]

In much the same way as Scottish exceptionlism runs deep in the Sindie movement?

How do you explain Wales' catastrophically self-sabotaging Brexit majority? Is that English exceptionalism?

[Fambo Number Mive]

The cost of the Brexit divorce bill for the UK could be billions higher than the £35bn-£39bn figure put forward by Theresa May, a report by Whitehall's spending watchdog suggested.

The National Audit Office (NAO) has warned that the UK could pay an extra £3bn more in budget contributions as well as an additional £2.9bn to the European Development Fund.

Auditors have concluded that the Treasury's estimate includes £7.2bn of receipts which will go directly to the private sector and not to the government's accounts.

The findings will anger Eurosceptic Tory MPs who have previously questioned whether the government should pay the lower estimate of £35bn.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/20/brexit-divorce-bill-will-surpass-39bn-warns-whitehall-watchdog

[Ray Travez]

Still, it's worth it for the... for the errr... ummm...

[DrGreggles]

Still, it's worth it for the... for the errr... ummm...

Blue passports is what you're fumbling for there, my friend.

BLUE FUCKING PASSPORTS!