'New' Brexit Thread 2 - The Empire Strikes Back

[Replies From View]

The bit I don't understand is whether we're supposed to think David Mitchell and Kevin Bacon are gay dads.

Bit harsh to call them dads if they're not.

[biggytitbo]

It's those that have only met 4 people who voted brexit that are the problem here Dawks.

Nice to know i'm one of the indecent plebs though.

[Benevolent Despot]

I still find it hard to believe that so many people are passionate about the EU. Remain was a vote against economic uncertainty. "Passionate about the EU" reminds me of David Mitchell's look at passion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI

Dawk's pissed 'cos it'll mess it up the pan-European sciences. I suppose it will. There'll be some adjustment to be done but all will be settled.

[jobotic]

It's those that have only met 4 people who voted brexit that are the problem here Dawks.

Nice to know i'm one of the indecent plebs though.

Not what he said though is it? As you know.

You're not a pleb.

[Replies From View]

Dawk's pissed 'cos it'll mess it up the pan-European sciences. I suppose it will.

And this is good because...?

[Bhazor]

Well it gets rid of the EU's crippling stranglehold over the british pharmaceutical industry. What with the EU being the single biggest funder of British medical research and as such the foundation of one britains largest industries. THANK GOD WE'RE GETTING OUT OF THAT ONE 'EY LADS! NEXT WE CAN FINALLY START CHARGING MORE FOR UNIVERSITY! FUCK YEAH!!!

ENGERLAND ENGERLAND ENGERLAND TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY FREE TOMMY ROBINSON PROOOOIIIIGIIGIGIGIGDFIIDIDIDIDDDDD

[Benevolent Despot]

And this is good because...?

Too much order in the world, therefore not enough balance. Introduce chaos to create balance. All will be settled.

Join the Dragon

[Replies From View]

Too much order in the world, therefore not enough balance. Introduce chaos to create balance. All will be settled.

Join the Dragon

Phew; you were only joking.

[Bhazor]

I still find it hard to believe that so many people are passionate about the EU.

As someone who believes the EU is the closest to a liberal super state that could counter America and China, as someone who has backpacked across five EU countries, lived and worked in three, as someone's whose university was funded by the EU, who has had many friends who have now left the country and who has parents who emigrated to Spain now losing sleep because they don't know what will happen to them. I am passionate about the EU.

But y'know I guess we get to have the HONOR the PRIVILEGE to spend the next decade laboriously working out trade deals with countries who have us over a barrel.

[Vodka Margarine]

As someone who believes the EU is the closest to a liberal super state that could counter America and China, as someone who has backpacked across five EU countries, lived and worked in three, as someone's whose university was funded by the EU, who has had many friends who have now left the country and who has parents who emigrated to Spain now losing sleep because they don't know what will happen to them. I am passionate about the EU.

I think you'll find that Leave won, so basically - shut up forever. All you have to do is get behind and believe in Brexit hard enough and suddenly all the dreadful things that have already been experienced by ordinary people as a direct consequence of the vote will be magically reversed.

[Bhazor]

Hey it will all be worth it when our kind gentle benevolent salt of the earth Tories save us from the unspeakable horrors of whatever the hell Titty thinks neoliberalism is.

Tear in eye salute flag.

[Uncle TechTip]

I've thought of something! More fish.

* Keep out the foreigns
* Make Britain GRATE again
* More fish
* Favourable trading deals with Bhutan etc.

[MoonDust]

As someone who believes the EU is the closest to a liberal super state that could counter America and China

A Tory Brexit will be a disaster. I voted Remain. But I voted Remain out of avoiding economic uncertainty and further hardship. But the idea of voting for Remain because I feel any affinity or love for the EU is genuinely baffling.

The EU isn't without sin either in foreign affairs.

Plus the idea of it being a "liberal super state" is exactly why it's crumbling, and people all over the EU are turning against it. Because liberalism is pathetic. In the age of crisis, in post-2008 crash, which we still haven't recovered from, when countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal have been fucked over backwards by the ECB and EC, and still, things are worse for them than before 2008, what's the liberal parties' answers? Fuck all. Keep things as they are. Or if you're Macron (who is probably the most right wing a liberal can be before effectively becoming a conservative), more political integration with the EU. That'll assuage people's doubts in the project.

Guy Verhofstadt is amongst the worst of this type of politician. That video of him 3 years ago, not long after SYRIZA won the Greek general election - a clear indication that the people of Greece were sick of austerity, and were open to radical ideas and radical change to make their lives better than constant austerity and misery - lecturing Alexis Tsipras to the point of actually shouting at him, in the European parliament, basically the gist of such scorn was basically "yes you won an election on a radical socialist ticket, but this is reality. Stop being a baby and give in to our market reforms, not yours. Austerity is the only way and you know it." If Tsipras had any balls he should have told him where to go. The guy is a complete cunt.

And yet liberals like Verhofstadt can't fucking see the problem as to why people like Tsipras were voted for. "Why are people voting for far-right populists?" "Why are people voting for far-left commies like Corbyn and Tsipras?" "Why why why?" Simple answer: cause liberal politics are uninspiring, cowardly, reactionary, and really no different than Conservatism when you brush away the socially liberal side of things, which is the most superficial aspects of their politics: Pro-feminist, check. Pro-LGBT, check. Pro-minority, check. Pro-refugee, check. Wonderful, are they going to address the economic problems and military interventions that will make the lives of such oppressed groups 1000x times better? Of course not. They won't touch the orthodoxy of market, perpetuating economic inequality, which disproportionately affects the above-mentioned margianlised groups. Nor will they change their foreign policy, as that directly affects their market interests. Look at Trudeau, liberal poster boy of Canada. Says he's a feminist - continues to sell weapons to the Saudis, thus supporting one of the most backwards regime on the planet when it comes to women's rights, or rights in general.

In short, liberalism and centrism are amongst the most hypocritical of ideologies in modern times, and people are seeing through that, finally.

[MoonDust]

Also your "HURRR DURRRR FREE TOMMY ROBINSON" sign offs on your posts are really fucking grating. It is this toxic assumption that everyone who voted Leave is a far-right racist which is partly contributing to such animosity and polarisation in British Politics. It smacks of snobbery, an ironic lack of capacity to engage in meaningful debate, and a dearth of understanding as to why Leave won.

[brat-sampson]

I live and work in mainland Europe with a British passport. We're now over half-way through the organisational period for this debacle and I still don't have a clue what any of it means for me. Because as usual it's not the actual individual people who matter here, it's the grandstanding and posturing of the anti-EU tories who couldn't tell you anything about the cost, method or result of leaving, only the sudden, desperate, yearning importance of doing so, still without a plan or an agreement or even a guarantee of a safety net should no satisfactory plan occur.

The whole thing's grotesque. Even if we're to leave, surely there must be less utterly embarrassing and thoughtless ways of doing so. Instead we just see jargon and bullshit in all directions as far as the eye can see.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

How did Dawkins get all the way up there?

[Zetetic]

But the idea of voting for Remain because I feel any affinity or love for the EU is genuinely baffling.

Not even an affinity for some of the espoused ideals of the EU over the espoused ideals of either Britain, or Britain in the mouths of those urging us to Leave?

You can recognise things to celebrate in something, even as you understand that the ultimate causes of that thing are deplorable.

In short, liberalism ... the most hypocritical of ideologies in modern times, and people are seeing through that, finally.

"The point of the socialist critique of 'bourgeois freedoms' is not (or should not be) that they are of no consequence, but that they are profoundly inadequate, and need to be extended by the radical transformation of the context, economic, social and political, which condemns them to inadequacy and erosion."

[biggytitbo]

A Tory Brexit will be a disaster. I voted Remain. But I voted Remain out of avoiding economic uncertainty and further hardship. But the idea of voting for Remain because I feel any affinity or love for the EU is genuinely baffling.

The EU isn't without sin either in foreign affairs.

Plus the idea of it being a "liberal super state" is exactly why it's crumbling, and people all over the EU are turning against it. Because liberalism is pathetic. In the age of crisis, in post-2008 crash, which we still haven't recovered from, when countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal have been fucked over backwards by the ECB and EC, and still, things are worse for them than before 2008, what's the liberal parties' answers? Fuck all. Keep things as they are. Or if you're Macron (who is probably the most right wing a liberal can be before effectively becoming a conservative), more political integration with the EU. That'll assuage people's doubts in the project.

Guy Verhofstadt is amongst the worst of this type of politician. That video of him 3 years ago, not long after SYRIZA won the Greek general election - a clear indication that the people of Greece were sick of austerity, and were open to radical ideas and radical change to make their lives better than constant austerity and misery - lecturing Alexis Tsipras to the point of actually shouting at him, in the European parliament, basically the gist of such scorn was basically "yes you won an election on a radical socialist ticket, but this is reality. Stop being a baby and give in to our market reforms, not yours. Austerity is the only way and you know it." If Tsipras had any balls he should have told him where to go. The guy is a complete cunt.

And yet liberals like Verhofstadt can't fucking see the problem as to why people like Tsipras were voted for. "Why are people voting for far-right populists?" "Why are people voting for far-left commies like Corbyn and Tsipras?" "Why why why?" Simple answer: cause liberal politics are uninspiring, cowardly, reactionary, and really no different than Conservatism when you brush away the socially liberal side of things, which is the most superficial aspects of their politics: Pro-feminist, check. Pro-LGBT, check. Pro-minority, check. Pro-refugee, check. Wonderful, are they going to address the economic problems and military interventions that will make the lives of such oppressed groups 1000x times better? Of course not. They won't touch the orthodoxy of market, perpetuating economic inequality, which disproportionately affects the above-mentioned margianlised groups. Nor will they change their foreign policy, as that directly affects their market interests. Look at Trudeau, liberal poster boy of Canada. Says he's a feminist - continues to sell weapons to the Saudis, thus supporting one of the most backwards regime on the planet when it comes to women's rights, or rights in general.

In short, liberalism and centrism are amongst the most hypocritical of ideologies in modern times, and people are seeing through that, finally.

Good post. The EU is essentially Blairism writ large, which is why he and the reset of the centrists who have dominated western politics for 20 years are so determined to somehow, anyhow, reverse brexit. Neocons + identify politics. LGBT rights + endless war. Globalism + everyone getting shafted by neo-liberalism and fealty to the bankers.

All the most toxic shit with a cherry on the top and thankfully people are finally seeing it for the comprehensive con it is.

[Replies From View]

I'm praying along with biggy that we get shafted by TTIP and a shitty US trade deal.

Ruled entirely by global corporations with their unelected and unaccountable CEOs; that's true democracy.

[pancreas]

Good post. The EU is essentially Blairism writ large, which is why he and the reset of the centrists who have dominated western politics for 20 years are so determined to somehow, anyhow, reverse brexit. Neocons + identify politics. LGBT rights + endless war. Globalism + everyone getting shafted by neo-liberalism and fealty to the bankers.

All the most toxic shit with a cherry on the top and thankfully people are finally seeing it for the comprehensive con it is.

He voted Remain, of course, because in spite of all this, he is not a total fucking idiot. In simple terms: EU bad, fine, but the alternative is worse. We can't even sort out our own government, which is *much* worse than the EU; utterly incompetent and exceptionally callous.

In its decided favour, the EU is the perhaps the only body capable of bringing multinationals to heel and legislating for climate change.

And the alternative has us 'going it alone' in a world of Trump-instigated trade wars.

If we managed to get left wing parties across the EU in power then the EU could be forced to change accordingly; this was the Labour ticket: Remain and Reform. It seems to me that is/was the best hope, despite the challenges.

It remains an outside possibility.

[Zetetic]

You don't even need left-wing parties in power 'across' the EU - a Corbyn government within the EU would have been an example of another way, without retreating into insularity, xenophobia and nationalism.

Now, the major counterweight to 'liberalism' in the EU is precisely that - uninterested in economic reform but some pretty strong opinions about brown people.

[biggytitbo]

I'm praying along with biggy that we get shafted by TTIP and a shitty US trade deal.

Ruled entirely by global corporations with their unelected and unaccountable CEOs; that's true democracy.

The EU will sanctify all of these bad things in effectively irreversible treaties. With national governments we at least have some degree of say and control, and the power to change course by electing a different government.

[Zetetic]

I think we've done the "let's pretend to misunderstand how the EU works" and "let's pretend we aren't still under a Tory government in a broken electoral system" stuff to death now, cheers.

[biggytitbo]

You don't even need left-wing parties in power 'across' the EU - a Corbyn government within the EU would have been an example of another way, without retreating into insularity, xenophobia and nationalism.

The EU is a small part of the world, less than 7% of the population. Not being in a suffocating and broken political union with a small part of the world is not insularity or xenophobia and as for nationalism, everyone can see thats precisely caused by the likes of the EU, not an unfortunate unrelated thing that only the EU can stop. When the EU means nearly half your young people are unemployed (because the EU always puts the banks and the markets before people), nationalism happens like night follows day

[biggytitbo]

I think we've done the "let's pretend to misunderstand how the EU works" and "let's pretend we aren't still under a Tory government in a broken electoral system" stuff to death now, cheers.

We can vote the tories out, we can't vote the EU out. We can, and did, vote to leave though.

[Replies From View]

We can vote the tories out, we can't vote the EU out. We can, and did, vote to leave though.

I totally agree.  I have always said that running away from home and being a cunt to everyone is the correct way to sort your life out.

[Zetetic]

We can vote the tories out, we can't vote the EU out. We can, and did, vote to leave though.

Apparently not then - it is still the case that you can vote your MEPs out, and still the case that national governments can take against EU directives when it suits them sufficiently (Article 2 violations, pollution in the UK, etc).

[jobotic]

We can vote the tories out, we can't vote the EU out. We can, and did, vote to leave though.

Yes we vote for MEPs, like we do MPs, see? We can vote the Tories out but we can't vote not to be governed by the government.

Stop pretending to be left-wing , it makes me sick. You're just another Paulie.

[biggytitbo]

Apparently not then - it is still the case that you can vote your MEPs out, and still the case that national governments can take against EU directives when it suits them sufficiently (Article 2 violations, pollution in the UK, etc).

A) Nobody cares about MEPs, too distant, too anonymous, have very little power b) When we vote at national level we vote for specific policies, nobody votes for policies at the EU level, they're set by diktat and rubber stamped or not by the non-entities in the parliament.

[Huxleys Babkins]

One might suggest our voice in the EU might have been louder had we not filled our portion of parliament with a bunch of UKIP morons who earn £70k a year + expenses to not bother turning up to work.

Nigel Farage is all about saving the livelihoods of UK fishermen. Can't turn up to the fisheries commission meetings to try to shape policy, can dump a load of dead fish into the Thames for cheap photo ops.