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"Cat Person"

Started by Monsieur Verdoux, December 12, 2017, 11:30:04 AM

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It seems like Twitter has been fervently discussing this short story over the past few days, in what seems like a welcome return to a time when literature could provoke such widespread reflection. There's been discussion from all angles, ranging from conversations about how the story seems to ring true to so many people, to ruminations on how mainstream fictional works outside of literature are so prone to marginalising women's perspectives on sex that people are bowled over by what is actually quite a typical literary subject. There's also been a mass triggering of MRAs, but that's to expected whenever any nuanced discussion of female autonomy is being had.

Myself, I enjoyed the story and thought it raised quite a few good points in quite a straightforward way while preserving a sense of ambiguity in the characters' motivations. I don't think the male character is presented entirely unsympathetically, as some seem to (although obviously he's a cad). It's not an aesthetic masterclass, but it's provocative enough to make up for that. Worth a read, I think.

Here's the link to it: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person

Did anybody else read it? Any thoughts on the story or all the fuss around it?

Large Noise

#1
Read this a week ago and really enjoyed it, was shocked to see it going viral in the last couple of days though.

I had two gripes: I didn't like how the writer had the friend send the slightly harsh rejection message. For one it just didn't ring true; nobody fucking grabs their mate's phone and breaks up with somebody for them against their will. Secondly, though, it felt a bit like the writer wanting to have their cake & eat it in the sense that they wanted Robert to have been told to fuck off in no uncertain terms, but didn't want to tarnish the character of Margot by having her do it. So we get this cop out whereby Robert gets fucked off but Margot had nothing to do with it. In my opinion that was too important a moment in the story to have Margot's agency taken out of the equation like that.

Secondly, I thought the ending was a bit too on the nose. Robert becomes this archetypal misogynist troll character, which to me felt like a pretty radical departure from the entirety of the story before that. He was always creepy, but like you say there was a sense of ambiguity (was Margot too drunk? Was she too young for him? How consensual was it really?) whereby you could imagine Robert either convincing himself that there was no problem or being genuinely oblivious to the fact that there was. Even when he shows up at the bar, you could imagine that he's somewhat unaware of how unpleasant that is for Margot. But the messages he sends at the end, for me, turn him from a fragile creep who you can sympathise with into a bona fide nutter you can't relate to. I thought it was a shame to dispense at the end with the ambiguity that had been so cleverly created all the way along.

When Margot's doing that kind of dissociative thing of commentating on Robert to the imaginary boyfriend in her head, you're struck (as a man) by the desire to be the imaginary guy who's in on the joke, and not be Robert. The story does a really good job of making you feel like you could be Robert one day or have been a bit Robertish in the past. It's unsettling because you could be like Robert by mistake, without realising. But when he sent the messages at the end it almost felt exculpatory for the male reader because the purposeful choice on Robert's part to terrorise Margot makes you feel like you could never be him.

jobotic

What's the MRA's whine about the story?

It is about a man who's rubbish in bed but we're ALL virgins rapists studs.

He sends horrible texts and we would never do that and any woman who suggests we would is just a whore bitch.

jobotic

Very much agree with Large Noise. Up to then I could see versions of my behaviour over the years - being condescending whilst at the same time pathetic, the jealousy, but I'd never say those words so it's not me, right?

I also wouldn't say "concession stand girl - give me your number". Twat.

Howj Begg

I liked the horrific rising tension, and the painful feelings of recognition of reality, in both characters behaviours. The twists and turns of feeling, fear and insight, parallelling the game-playing and self-doubt, are worthy of a Polanski movie.

I've read suggestions that Robert is a PUA. The way he uses sarcastic and insulting lines in order to build mystery, and encourage curiosity. His avoidant responses. It would perhaps be convenient to think that he is, seeing as such a strategy could be adopted by anybody.

Howj Begg

Quote from: jobotic on December 12, 2017, 04:38:17 PM
What's the MRA's whine about the story?

It is about a man who's rubbish in bed but we're ALL virgins rapists studs.

He sends horrible texts and we would never do that and any woman who suggests we would is just a whore bitch.

Heh. It is about a bunch of things though, also I think it is a cautionary tale to women to recognise these dependent feelings on men who act like douchebags right from the start*. Her changing feelings, so believably and meticulously transmitted to us, form this realist monologue. The diffuseness of Robert's portrait though, is good because we are seeing it through Margot's subjective opinion, so Robert's unknowness and uniqueness is conveyed: the narrator doesn't know what he's like, so neither do we. She can only observe and think about his actions, and behaviours. This might come across as not well-drawn, but I think it's very effective. It does paint the frighteningly and inscrutably unknown in another person that we meet, and especially in those who might court us.


*Although his behaviour got a lot worse, the lowlight being his regurgitation of his porn diet in bed with her, I think that right from the start he was game-playing, negging etc.

Thursday

#6
I started reading it, and then thought "oh this is for normal people that go on dates and have bad relationships and stuff" and so stopped. It's probably quite good though.

Noodle Lizard

I got to "Concession-stand girl, give me your number" and that was enough for me.  I'm not having this.

Howj Begg

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on December 12, 2017, 06:14:33 PM
I got to "Concession-stand girl, give me your number" and that was enough for me.  I'm not having this.

Some people talk like that though.

Thursday


Large Noise

#10
Quote from: Howj Begg on December 12, 2017, 04:47:26 PM
I've read suggestions that Robert is a PUA. The way he uses sarcastic and insulting lines in order to build mystery, and encourage curiosity. His avoidant responses. It would perhaps be convenient to think that he is, seeing as such a strategy could be adopted by anybody.
It didn't occur to me that he could be a PUA, but I can see it now that you mention it. Though some aspects of his character don't fit with that; he's scruffy, he gets all emotional after sex, he doesn't say anything subtly boastful about himself or 'demonstrate value' really.

Also, I just googled Cat Person and the fucking awful hot takes from the hot takes factories make me never want to engage with popular culture ever again.

Urinal Cake

Quote from: Howj Begg on December 12, 2017, 10:09:06 PM
Some people talk like that though.
In movies

Medium was supposed to do this sort of thing wasn't?

Quote from: Urinal Cake on December 12, 2017, 11:59:54 PM
In movies

I think that the guy is supposed to be semi-ironically appropriating movie-like dialogue. Y'know, like people do when they're trying to be amusing.

The author sort of addresses this point in her interview with the New Yorker:

QuoteI liked writing Robert's side of the conversation, on the other hand, in part because I felt like I was his analogue as a writer: both of us were trying to imitate how someone younger would talk, always on the verge of a slip that would give the game away.

Mister Six

Is it good then? I thought the prose was so fucking leaden I couldn't make it five sentences in. Didn't realise it was so popular - I saw it in a paid ad from the New Yorker.

bgmnts

I tried reading it but only got a few lines in. Bit crap.

Janie Jones


Icehaven

Why is it called Cat Person?


Icehaven


It's because the film they go to see on their date is Paul Schrader's remake of 'Cat People'.

Howj Begg

- His possible lie about having a room full o' cats.
- The selfishness/amorality of cats, and him a 'cat person'.

- The fact that at the end of the story he literally transforms into a cat.

Blinder Data

The author's got a $1m book deal, so that's nice isn't it. Now, how do I write a short story that goes viral...?

I largely agree with Large Noise. Not sure how I feel about the ending that reduced him to a typical misogynistic troll. Rather enjoyed it (especially the bits before they went to his house) but not sure it's worth $1m


JesusAndYourBush

Yeah, there being no cats confused me too,  I thought perhaps it was a lie to impress her but then why did he remind her of the cats just before they went in the house.

About a year ago or more I saw a screenshot of some text messages (on one of those clickbait collections of images) that was very similar to the final part of the story.  I wonder if it influenced the writer?

Repeater

Would suggest the brutal change of character in Robert would be realistic to many women out there.

Large Noise

There was a similar short story called 'The Surrogate' in the New Yorker in 2003: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/09/15/the-surrogate

tldr: A twenty-year-old arts student has casual sex with a scruffy beer-bellied guy in his mid/late 20's (the age Margot thought Robert was) whom she perceives to be more working class and less intelligent than her. It's told from her point of view, he's a bit of a blank slate. He gives her a lift in his car, she feels a bit awkward and they don't really click. She initiates the sex/sex-adjacent stuff. There's the dramatic irony of her knowing that they're incompatible while he, you suspect, may think that he's onto something special. In retrospect she's kinda baffled by her decision to sleep with him. He ends up (she imagines) emotionally/psychologically altered by the experience by the end of the story in a way that she isn't. She stops slumming it and goes back to the life she was always supposed to have.

'The Surrogate' really foregrounds the class aspect of the story, but it's there in 'Cat Person' too. 'Cat Person' is much more vivid and memorable, but there's a kind of overly neat ending that, to my mind, made it perfectly suited to going viral.

It was quite notable how many people thought it was a piece of journalism; it was often referred to as an 'article' on twitter. It was also interesting to see some accuse the story of being 'fatphobic' because it describes Margot's revulsion when she sees Robert's belly. The counter-argument, of course, was that it's a piece of fiction and Margot's views aren't necessarily those of the author. But it struck me, reading people go back-and-forth on the 'fatphobia' thing, how literally-minded a lot of people seem to be now. There's a real desire for creative works to display moral clarity, to not be 'problematic'. 'Cat Person' kind of de-problematises everything in the end, which I think is a shame.

newbridge

Having finally read this, I'm utterly baffled as to why it went viral or warranted a $1 million book deal. Can't recall feeling so out of touch with popular culture.

I didn't hate it, it was fine, but what is noteworthy here?

The creepiest part of the story is:

QuoteLosing her virginity had been a long, drawn-out affair preceded by several months' worth of intense discussion with her boyfriend of two years, plus a visit to the gynecologist and a horrifically embarrassing but ultimately incredibly meaningful conversation with her mom, who, in the end, had not only reserved her a room at a bed-and-breakfast but, after the event, written her a card.

(and the unresolved question of whether the author actually thinks that is a normal thing that makes the narrator relatable)

Sin Agog

I like biographies told in interesting, artistic ways, but this one barely even mentioned Val Lewton once.

Shaky

Have to admit I quite liked this story. It's heavy handed by the end but it gets it's point across. However, I just assumed we're not really supposed to like either protagonist. Robert is obviously a bell-end but Margot's not portrayed in the greatest light either, that bit Newbridge quotes being a case in point.