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March 28, 2024, 08:46:37 AM

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Berserk - Kentaro Miura

Started by Shay Chaise, December 21, 2017, 04:45:48 PM

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Chedney Honks

To be honest, the context and events leading up to it are far heavier than that one narrative detail.

It's also far from the most disturbing thing in Berserk.


madhair60

It is awful, though, and drawn to be as explicit as possible. And goes on for multiple chapters.

Chedney Honks

Damn, you got there already? What do you make of that whole sequence? Not that specific spoilered bit, but the whole shift.

madhair60

Yeah mate I'm absolutely blazing through it.

Shit response but I don't know if I can even express it; the whole sequence, that whole shift is so relentlessly awful. Not awful like "this is bad quality" but gut-wrenchingly awful and portrayed with such verisimilitude that it's one of the most disturbing things I've seen in any medium. There's no way not to "under-sell" it but that sort of darkness washing over you with - I was going to say so little build-up, but that's not true. Do you know what I mean? You know something's coming but the sheer appalling horror of it is so vividly upsetting.

Anyway I've paused after that because
Spoiler alert
what's happened to Casca is so fucking upsetting.
[close]

Chedney Honks

That's pretty much the end of the 97 anime (which Miura also oversaw, it's brilliant) and I was absolutely knocked on my arse. I couldn't process it, really. I know what you mean. I think it's one of the most powerful, devastating sequences in anything. It took me a couple of weeks but I basically had to start the manga to find out what happened next.

When you're ready, for some encouragement, the next arc is incredible and at least as 'good'. Now you know why Guts is the way he is, it goes even deeper.

Spiteface

Quote from: Chedney Honks on May 23, 2021, 03:22:44 PM
That's pretty much the end of the 97 anime (which Miura also oversaw, it's brilliant) and I was absolutely knocked on my arse.

Same for me. It was someone on here who convinced me to give Berserk 97 a go. My anime tastes tend to be darker 80s and 90s stuff (unless it's based on a Tokusatsu show, like SSSS.GRIDMAN), and Berserk turned out to be right up my alley.

That ending, I know it ends where it does as it's really an advert for the Manga (which also explains the absence of certain key characters) but talk about downer endings.

And the best bit, the anime starts with a bit of Black Swordsman action (again, I'd love to see a full animated Black Swordsman adaptation), then does the flashback to the Golden Age. They tell you things went south between these people (there's even a glimpse of
Spoiler alert
the God Hand, including Griffith/Femto
[close]
), then they tell you the backstory in a way that strings you along to the point you almost forget something is going to happen.


Got deluxe volumes 3 and 4 on the way, to go with the first two, and will properly start reading it all when they get here.

madhair60

CW: the stuff from before
Spoiler alert
I was going to stop reading, when it happened. It was so upsetting, so explicit and so pornographic that it felt like a betrayal of the standards that the manga had established to that point. But having had time to think about it, I feel as though that was all very much the intention. It is a betrayal. An invasive, horrific betrayal and violation, and that all comes out through not only the narrative, the dialogue, the visuals, but the very way that Casca is presented as suddenly not just vulnerable but basically a plaything. It's wrong and it's rage-inducing and that's exactly what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to knock you for six. It fundamentally changes the entire focus of Berserk, it fundamentally changes the entire cast and it fundamentally changed me as a reader.
[close]

Chedney Honks

It's exactly that.

Spoiler alert
It's staggering how much worse it is than 'just' rape. It's the worst possible betrayal by the person who was not only her protector and leader but also her literal saviour. And not only that, he also did it primarily to devastate Guts which is why it's presented so graphically and pornographically. We see it from Guts' perspective. Worse, it's presented that she can't help but enjoy it on some level. Griffith knows that they love each other, that they have taken over the Band of the Hawk, and he's spiteful and jealous about his loss of status as the most important person to each of them. And even worse, it also recalls Guts' own previous betrayal by Gambino and subsequent rape. It's also a betrayal for the reader because we shared the same hopes that Griffith would lead the Band of the Hawk and that for everything they gave up and went through together for him, to pursue his dream, that even in his state, he may one day become strong enough to lead them again. To sacrifice all of that, the people who believed in him, in order to become what he did and to do what he did, I found that maybe the worst of all.

I think it's one of the most powerful sequences of anything I've ever seen or read.
[close]

I don't know how but it actually gets stronger after that.

See why Kankurette saying it was 'spoiled' is actually not really true? It's so much more devastating than that detail.

Spiteface

Volume 4 arrived. Still waiting on 3, might order 5 anyway in a few days.

I assume the "lost" chapter where
Spoiler alert
Griffith travels through the Astral world and meets "The Idea of Evil - essentially "God" or at least the thing the God Hand serve
[close]
, isn't in these deluxe editions? I know Miura pulled it because it reveals too much about the universe of Berserk, too soon, but I may check it out online if it is omitted here.

Chedney Honks

That's correct. It's a bit too exposition heavy.

madhair60

aside from its brilliance in characterisation I have to say that Berserk is still just the coolest fucking most metal thing ever quite a lot.


Kankurette

The spoiled bit was as in spoilers. As in I knew what happened before I'd even seen or read Berserk, likewise
Spoiler alert
Griffith turning evil and getting the rest of the gang killed, and Guts being forced to watch Casca's rape.
[close]
Not as in 'that scene ruined the manga', though it did put me off. I had the same problem with Battle Royale. The mangaka was a bit too keen on graphic rape scenes.

Chedney Honks

Oh, I see. Well and truly spoiled. That's a shame. I would never spoil that sequence for anyone.

madhair60, you're motoring through it! Agree on the artwork. It's not normally my kind of thing at all but I find it awesome, certain panels made me stop and just stare taking it in.

Re: TLC section of the Conviction Arc

Spoiler alert
fuckkkkkkkk
[close]

basterfeldt

I don't have much else constructive to add to the conversation, just wanted to drop in and echo how fantastic Berserk is. I've very much enjoyed reading Madhair's reaction to THAT scene and the ensuing discussion with Chedney. My introduction to it all was being forced to watch the three movies of the golden arc that came out a few years ago. I sort of enjoyed the first two films then the third one which includes the whole eclipse segment absolutely blew me away, it was so upsetting and awful and I had to read the entire thing straight away.

Finally read the last seven chapters or so I had to be caught up the other day. Sigh.

madhair60

Got to be thoroughly and completely honest, the
Spoiler alert
shockingly explicit devil orgy sequence was a little too close to hentai for my tastes and knocked my enjoyment of the manga down a few pegs. I'm not a prude and I have nothing against sex being portrayed in comics etc but I feel like it undermined the Eclipse rape scene and my eventual acceptance of it as being pornographic in order to get across the perversity of the act. I think the persistently disappointing portrayal of women is leaning into shock value and making the manga worse.
[close]

Edit: I'm still reading. I just feel like the quality has dipped. A lot.

chveik

read volumes 1 to 4 today. quite enjoying it, not as such hyperbolic levels than cheds and mads but i'll stick to it

Chedney Honks

#46
Quote from: madhair60 on May 30, 2021, 07:17:34 PM
Got to be thoroughly and completely honest, the
Spoiler alert
shockingly explicit devil orgy sequence was a little too close to hentai for my tastes and knocked my enjoyment of the manga down a few pegs. I'm not a prude and I have nothing against sex being portrayed in comics etc but I feel like it undermined the Eclipse rape scene and my eventual acceptance of it as being pornographic in order to get across the perversity of the act. I think the persistently disappointing portrayal of women is leaning into shock value and making the manga worse.
[close]

Edit: I'm still reading. I just feel like the quality has dipped. A lot.

I would say after Rosine, it's less interesting and powerful and more of a dark action fantasy kind of romp. There's some brilliant stuff to come but it's less profound. I can't really say what the point of the Great Goat is. There's some really solid action and Guts character development and a new distinct phase, but it's not as impactful overall.

I thought that (in TLC arc)
Spoiler alert
adult attack
[close]
was the most horrifying thing I've ever seen.

Chedney Honks

Quote from: chveik on May 30, 2021, 11:04:12 PM
read volumes 1 to 4 today. quite enjoying it, not as such hyperbolic levels than cheds and mads but i'll stick to it

First couple of volumes are pretty bog standard dark fantasy. Now you're into the Golden Age arc, it's the business.

chveik

fair play that's a pretty horrible turn of events (just finished vol 13)

Chedney Honks



feel like pure shit just want
Spoiler alert
the entire Band of the Hawk :(:(:(
[close]
back

chveik

that little comic relief cunt Puck is starting to get on my nerves though

madhair60

I love Puck, I love how committed to comic relief the series is even in the face of utter despair. You'll have a character getting deepthroated by a demon pig or something and Puck will be doing a little superdeformed face in the corner like "aiiee!!" and referencing Ultraman.

Jerzy Bondov

Where's the best place to stop reading it? Like where's the peak?

Chedney Honks

Probably end of the Conviction Arc but there's still some great stuff after that, it's just more 'the gang in peril', like the Secret Seven or something.

Jerzy Bondov

Nice cheers, that makes it seem more manageable. Knowing there's probably not going to be a proper ending was putting me off.

madhair60

this really has just descended into a parade of violent misogyny

Chedney Honks

As I say, like the Secret Seven.

Chedney Honks

Reading this again myself and it does go pretty intermittently crap after Conviction Arc.

Spiteface

New chapter coming in Young Animal next month, it seems. Last chapter Miura worked on before his death. Will be accompanied by a poster depicting the most memorable scenes from Berserk, along with a "Messages to Kentaro Miura" booklet.

Still no word on if Miura's assistants will be continuing beyond this, though.

Thursday

Hello I just watched the last four episode of the 97 anime in a row.

I kind of knew some basics of what was going to happen, but uh yeah...blimey.