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March 29, 2024, 12:14:16 AM

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Prision sentences........are they long enough?

Started by Rubbish Monkey, February 19, 2004, 07:59:43 PM

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Rubbish Monkey

Reading one of the stories in one of me crappy local newspapers, got me thinking are jail sentences long enough?

It was a story on a 17year old girl who got basically kidnapped (accepted a lift from a car because she knew someone in it - which then got her kidnapped). Held captive for 13 hours, stripped, forced to smoke crack, repeatedly assulted and threatened with prostitution to feed the supposed gangs drug habits.
gang members got sentenced as this :

5 yrs
4 and a half yrs
3 x 3 yrs
1 your
18 months

Police said the victims ordeal was the worst they have to had to deal with.

i'm thinking that the girl involved will probobly suffer with this for a long time - probobly much longer than anyone has been jailed for. Maybe even suffering some form of post traumatic stress disorder (which alot of rape victims suffer from and army peoples - and should not be taken lightly in my view)

was the jail sentences given enough? this guy got 10 years for slashing an estranged wifes throat and wrist

do you think prison times dished out are acceptable for crimes commited in this country? what about actual term times served, let out early for good behaviour and such?

when i read the story i outlined above i must admit to being disapointed in the sentences given (ok not all details are known to me or anything) How long to repeat burgalrie offenders get? im sure its not far off what was given for a kidanpping in this case?) Maybe im just feeling sorry for the victim, after last year when i got beaten with a baseball bat by a few guys and robbed (after beating i was not cocky or nothing and tried to take em on or anything) Anyway prisons are like holiday camps arnt they these days.....


what happened to shower rapes?

imitationleather

And yet Maxine Carr seems to have been sentenced to death by the public for virtually no crime whatsoever.

We're such a bunch of cunts.

Bill Oddie

And that "Shipman" lad saved the NHS a bloody fortune in the long term, but still gets life in jail. These so-called High Court Judges always focus on the negative because that's what sells papers.

Vermschneid Mehearties

Will 2 more years in jail turn a crack dealer into a nice god-fearing law-obeyer?

No. It'll just make him a very very pissed off crack dealer with a chip on his shoulder.

I've always maintained that people who end up in jail are very stupid or very naive. Both things that are not correctable.

El Unicornio, mang

I personally think that sentences for people who commit violent acts on others (not including acts of self-defence) should be higher, and sentences for drug addicts should be lower. I think you have to take each case as it comes though, those guys above should be locked up and have the key thrown away, or have the same done to them that they did to the girl.

TOCMFIC

Longer sentences? Maybe. Better sentences? Absolutely.

Right now, you can go down longer for software piracy than rape. There has to be more sense.

A rapist should not be out in three years, while a software pirate rots for 5-10. Thats utter bollocks.

Plenty more examples I'm sure, but that disparity is always one that really gets me.

daveytaylor

I think this is a really good thread and should lead to a wonderful discussion on the pros and cons of the present penal system in the UK. Of course, we will have to see what happens.

I think you need to look at what prison is supposed to do. I see the role of prison as being

a) To keep dangerous people away from the public

b) To punish people for their crimes

c) To rehabilitate

Now C is the interesting one. If you accept that prisoners will eventually be released into society then simply punishing them and keeping them locked up is not acceptable. All you get at the end is a more angry criminal with possibly more ideas for new criminal jobs than when they went in.

Unfortunately, and I wouldn't be surprised if people have already pressed the Reply button and written this, to say Rehabilitation does instantly get the label of "wishy washy liberal" thrown into your face or even worse the comment, "If it was up to you all the criminals would be set free". If that is your comment then don't be surprised if I don't reply to your uneducated bollocks.

So we need to rehabilitate but how do we do this? I think this is the problem. Rehabilitation for people is going to be totally individual. I have heard of schemes which are not popular with the media but bring wonderful results. These schemes introduce the criminal to the victim. For many criminals (and reoffending figures for such schemes are very low) this is enough to rehabilitate them. Simply seeing, for the first time, their victim as a real person does the trick. Now, of course, to suggest that this would work for all criminals is wrong.

As a result other rehabilitation schemes are needed.

But then we have to accept that fact that some people will not respond at all to rehabilitation.

So, I would like to change your question around a bit if you will allow me. Instead of, is this sentence long enough? What about, will these people be rehabilitated upon release? Then juxtapose this question with, will these people be rehabilitated upon release if kept in prison for another ten years?

I don't have the answers but it might add to what is a sensible and intellegent debate.

Rapists should just be executed, not as punishment or a deterrant but just to get rid of them so human beings can live without worrying about where they are or what they're doing.

I'd pull the lever on all these fuckers myself.

imitationleather

Surely the punishment for rape should be rape, if the punishment for murder is murder?

By the way, I actually believe that prison should be about rehabilatation and not punishment, and that anyone who thinks that the punishment for rape should be murder is a twat.

daveytaylor

Quote from: "DevlinC"Rapists should just be executed, not as punishment or a deterrant but just to get rid of them so human beings can live without worrying about where they are or what they're doing.

I'd pull the lever on all these fuckers myself.

Interesting...

...how would you feel if ten years later you had pulled the lever on an innocent person?

Would your position change if someone could rehabilitate the offender and they then became honest, hard working members of society?

TOCMFIC

Quote from: "DevlinC"Rapists should just be executed, not as punishment or a deterrant but just to get rid of them so human beings can live without worrying about where they are or what they're doing.

I'd pull the lever on all these fuckers myself.

YES YES YES!

Though actually, Dead Man Walking, the movie with Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn made me reconsider my thoughts on the death penalty. The death penalty is not about punishment, it's about revenge.

Aside from legal issues, like being wrongly convicted and executed. Kinda hard for the government to say "terribly sorry old chap" to a corpse... I prefer the following.

Fuck all this "cruel and unusual" stuff being disallowed. I say, in a case of rape, murder etc... (So MAJOR crimes) the person isn't executed. They are shut in solitary confinement, 24 hours a day. The cell has proper facilities, so toilet etc... We're not talking something like the cooler in Great Escape here. We're talking basic facilities. And that person stays there. They don't get to leave unless they have a medical condition requiring treatment. They are treated, then put back. There is no exercise, there is no TV, there is no socializing. Just the criminal, alone, with his/her thoughts, 24 hours a day. The only other contact they have with the outside world is when their food is passed through the door to them. If they destroy their cell in an attempt to be moved, that's tough. They have to live with the damage.

I think shoving someone alone in a cell for fifty years is far greater punishment than executing them. And I have more experience than most with being affected by violent crime I think (I don't want to go into details), and I would much rather see these fuckers imprisoned like that rather than executed.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I have my reasons.

wasp_f15ting

Thats a damn good idea tomfic.

Social deprivation will probably ruine the mind of these people. Well of what is left un-rotted. Plus it is real detatchment from society and its liberties. For those who have grown up in its bussom I guess it will be fucking horrendous. I think most of these people would kill themselves within a  matter of years.

daveytaylor

Quote from: "TOCMFIC"I think shoving someone alone in a cell for fifty years is far greater punishment than executing them. And I have more experience than most with being affected by violent crime I think (I don't want to go into details), and I would much rather see these fuckers imprisoned like that rather than executed.

And what happens after 50 years when they are released? Are they now rehabilitated? Can they be released safely into society? Or is the concept for this that they should stay in prison for the rest of their lives? If so, what should happen to the people who will be released?

Quote from: "Vermschneid Mehearties"I've always maintained that people who end up in jail are very stupid or very naive. Both things that are not correctable.

A criminal class of unintelligent people? Coming straight out of the nineteenth century there, VM.

wasp_f15ting

Quote from: "12 years, 11 months old"
Quote from: "Vermschneid Mehearties"I've always maintained that people who end up in jail are very stupid or very naive. Both things that are not correctable.

A criminal class of unintelligent people? Coming straight out of the nineteenth century there, VM.

Heh, I guess Mandela, Galileo and Ghandi were all silly spanners.

Borboski

I'd love to see a higher tax rate funding a massive expansion of the prison sector, leading to far more support to offenders, and if that meant longer term sentences tied into training, counselling, employment, etc, then so be it.

It also sends a silly message that courts sentence terms that are often served only in part. The sentence should be only untill the first review - otherwise it's meaningless. The current state of affairs gives a lot of power to the right wing press.

In fact, I'd be happier if sentencing was taken away from the judiciary and placed within the probation service - tied purely to the needs of the offender and society (i.e. at what point he could be released at a general likelihood of no further offence).

I don't see any general need to incercerate people for the sake of revenge. It serves a very narrow purpose, wastes resources, and encourages a negative moral atmosphere.

chand

Quote from: "daveytaylor"Unfortunately, and I wouldn't be surprised if people have already pressed the Reply button and written this, to say Rehabilitation does instantly get the label of "wishy washy liberal" thrown into your face or even worse the comment, "If it was up to you all the criminals would be set free". If that is your comment then don't be surprised if I don't reply to your uneducated bollocks.

Yeah, my favourite one is 'Liberals care more about the rights of criminals than victims'. What does that even mean, and why would liberals approve of criminals any more than anyone else?

Rev

Prisons exist to contain and rehabilitate, full stop.  They are not supposed to be a form of punishment, never were, and anyone who bleats about the system being too soft - 'they have telly and air-hockey and that' - misses the point that simply not being able to leave the building, or to live your life to your own schedule, is a tremendous act of violence.  Turning it into slow torture would just guarantee that the prisoner re-offends once they've been squatted out of the system.  And yes, if - Baal help us - we were ever to raise the stakes regarding 'punishment', we would need a perfect criminal justice system to ensure that innocent people were not culled and shackled at the rate that they're currently imprisoned.  Until we can come up with a proper alternative to the theatrical pissing contest of court trials, this one has to sit way, way back on the back-burner.

Rubbish Monkey

My mate had his house burgled last week. By his next door neighbours son and cronies. The guy he got caught with has been caught before. He (my mate)  had the opion that prision was njothing more than criminal classes for the criminal minded and turned people that way. (also put them to the contacts they shouldn't have) He said that they should be taught a trade to keep them from ccrime - its probobly the only thing they know as young crims or from  family tradePersonal experience (in my work place and town) has a guy who comes in steals things (2 personal ccd players of mine grrrrrrr a laptop of a person i work with and a cd player of his) pluss the guy is a known shoplifter,  he has 60 odd convictions of this, has a court order that he is not allowed in any of the town (now city) shops against him, yet he has been spotted at the uni  this past week. The order against him runs out october this year. He is a very obviuous repeated felon, as is the guy who stole from my mates house. My mates opinion was not to stick the juvinile in prison but to teach him a trade. The repeated felon should be burned alive for being caught so many times obviously. Oh and the juvinile felon in his robbery by the way was his next door neighbours son. talk about shitting on your own doorstep huh?

if that made no sense im a bit pissed, sorry. It al made sense to me at the time. Tomorrow I shal post  something of worth maybe,........I still think the sentences here are shit. FUCK kidnap forced drug takiing and 5 years???? they will be out in 2 and a half. let off for good behaviour? maybe they should of thought of that before!......oh i had an idea of mixing the countries criminals so they dont make contacts in their own region ie northan criminals went down south and southern ones go up north......like a student exchange thing but with the criminal underclass

TOCMFIC

Quote from: "daveytaylor"
Quote from: "TOCMFIC"I think shoving someone alone in a cell for fifty years is far greater punishment than executing them. And I have more experience than most with being affected by violent crime I think (I don't want to go into details), and I would much rather see these fuckers imprisoned like that rather than executed.

And what happens after 50 years when they are released? Are they now rehabilitated? Can they be released safely into society? Or is the concept for this that they should stay in prison for the rest of their lives? If so, what should happen to the people who will be released?

No no, you misunderstand. They stay there until they die. I just chose 50 years as a random number.

And bollocks to "contain and rehabilitate". Let's face it, that's a load of liberal arse.

Quotemisses the point that simply not being able to leave the building, or to live your life to your own schedule, is a tremendous act of violence

In that case, boarding school, military training etc... are PRISON by your definition. And I speak with a great deal of authority on the former, and while I didn't like it, to call it prison (since I had to live on someone elses schedule, and couldn't leave the place, it qualifies as prison by your definition), and to say it's an act of violence, is utter nonsense.

Rubbish Monkey

oh dangerous driving by the way has a maximum sentence of 1 year in prision by the way.

Is that right?



In comparison of my original post.....and robbery. ( i cannot spel burgelary.......and what would people think if she was just a couple of years younger....mind you, 17 is not "adult age"

Rev

Quote from: "TOCMFIC"bollocks to "contain and rehabilitate". Let's face it, that's a load of liberal arse.

Not sure where you're going with this one.  The original concept of the prison was to remove the offender from society and rehabilitate them so that they could re-enter it.  The idea of it being a form of punishment came about much later, mainly because existing prisons were under-funded shit-pits.

Quotemisses the point that simply not being able to leave the building, or to live your life to your own schedule, is a tremendous act of violence

QuoteIn that case, boarding school, military training etc... are PRISON by your definition. And I speak with a great deal of authority on the former, and while I didn't like it, to call it prison (since I had to live on someone elses schedule, and couldn't leave the place, it qualifies as prison by your definition), and to say it's an act of violence, is utter nonsense.

I see your point, but boarding school and military training are supposed to be constructive experiences that contribute to your life - or your ability to do a particular job - once you've finished them, whereas prison is water-treading.  They do all follow the same model, though, and I wouldn't want to be subjected to any of them.

gazzyk1ns

Maybe the way forward is two types of prison. One for people who committed a crime which demonstrates they are a danger to others, and one for the rest - from major fraud to software piracy. The object of the former would be primarily to keep the people out of society, and then to rehabilitate them before release. Most of the "prison money" should go to that prison type, for security and of course for trained guards and... whatever you call people who rehabilitate prisoners these days. The other type would just aim to punish people by taking their liberty away. Security would be minimal, maybe you could just use simple normal locked doors and electronic tags, with the penalty for escape or attempted escape being an extension of the sentence and a fine.

Hopefully, that way, people would regard the "serious prison" similarly (hopefully a bit more seriously) than they do prison as it is now; and then for the other, people wouldn't necessarily look down on you, just think you're a bit of a crafty bugger, someone who always has the next money-making exercise up hjis sleeve, or whatever. There would be less chance of cross-corruption, as I assume there is at the moment with the more unusual convictions - I can't think that sending someone who has cheated on their insurance, thinking they'd just slip through the net and save a couple of grand, to prison for a couple of years to mix with "full-on" burglars and worse can be helpful to anyone. Money would also be spent more efficiently, with the serious money going to the serious criminals.

Just an idea, whaddaya reckon?

JesusAndYourBush

Some sentences are too long, and some aren't long enough.  It seems property is valued more than human lives.
There needs to be a total reform of the prison system.
At present, housewives and pensioners get a month in jail for not paying their tv licence.  Fuck off!!!!!  That needs to be the first thing to be scrapped.  (I mean the sentence, but the tv licence can go too, but that's a different discussion.)
Rob a bank and you get a long time inside.  Kill someone and in certain circumstances like drunk driving you'll get a slap on the wrist.  This isn't good enough.

Also what annoys me is the inconsistencies with different judges giving vastly different sentences for similar crimes.  They need to draw up a list of crimes and suitable sentences, and stick to it.

Another thing that kinda bugs me is that the high profile "celebrity" criminals seem to rot in jail for ever, while lower profile criminals who commit similar crimes get out sooner.  Sure, they should serve their time, but surely they should all be treated equally.  For example Sutcliffe, sentenced to 30 years in 1981.  So he should be out in 7 years.  But will he?  Will he fuck.  And yet other people who don't make the news also get the same sentence and get out in 20 years with 10 years off for good behaviour.  Regardless of the man, it isn't right.  (And before anyone has a go for thinking I'm defending Sutcliffe, I'm not.  I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies.)

Quote from: "daveytaylor"
Quote from: "DevlinC"Rapists should just be executed, not as punishment or a deterrant but just to get rid of them so human beings can live without worrying about where they are or what they're doing.

I'd pull the lever on all these fuckers myself.

Interesting...

...how would you feel if ten years later you had pulled the lever on an innocent person?

Clearly you need proof, but rape is not a difficult thing to prove. When reasonable doubt comes into play it can't be that easy but as a quick fire response the above was enough.

QuoteWould your position change if someone could rehabilitate the offender and they then became honest, hard working members of society?

Anyone you care about ever been raped? For most that go through it, it fucks up their lives forever. Many can never have a normal sex life again, especially if the rape was particularly brutal such as here. People that can do that to someone else aren't worth the hassle of rehabilitation. Sure, that's a desire for revenge talking, and actually the person I know who was raped - in a particularly brutal way, incidentally - doesn't agree with me on this particular issue. Getting rid of the undesirable elements in society, whether through rehabilition or execution, is everyone's goal - I just don't think we should waste money trying to rehabilitate a rapist so they can go back into society when we could just get rid of them and spend the same money helping the person who was raped through their ordeal.

weekender

So I can go out, kidnap and rape a schoolgirl, and only have to spend a few years in jail for it?  Great!  See you in 2006!

Seriously, I'd bring back the death penalty.  It'd act as a massive deterrent, and if the odd innocent gypsy gets executed along the way, well that's a small price to pay.

hencole

Still suprises me how many people on this board favour the death penalty, at a guess I'd say more than the general population which is really saying something. Although always interesting how that figure varies when theres an emotional issue in the media at the time such as the Soham murders.  Anyway I'd support much higher prison sentances for corporate crime. If you steal a million squid of someone your likely to get a lesser sentance than stealing 500 squid from someones house. Corporate fraud for example Enron, Robert Maxwell casues untold misery to thousands if not tens of thousands of people.
Also drink drivers and speeding/careless/uninsured drivers should get much higher sentances. If I wanted to kill someone all I'd need to do is run them over and the chances are I would get a £500 pound fine and banned from driving for a year. An example of someone I know is that they had drunk 12+ pints then got in there car to drive a good few miles they hit a cyclist who luckily wasn't injured and then left the scene of the accident. They were found by police wandering drunk a few streets away. They got a £400 pound fine and banned for 6 months. Stupid fucking stupid.

Quote from: "hencole"Still suprises me how many people on this board favour the death penalty, at a guess I'd say more than the general population which is really saying something.

This from the man who threw a pikey off a cliff.

daveytaylor

Quote from: "weekender"Seriously, I'd bring back the death penalty.  It'd act as a massive deterrent

But it doesn't. This is shown time and again in America where States who bring in the death penalty see no drop in crime figures and States which stop the death penalty see no rise in crime figures.

The death penalty is not a deterent.

daveytaylor

Quote from: "DevlinC"Clearly you need proof, but rape is not a difficult thing to prove. When reasonable doubt comes into play it can't be that easy but as a quick fire response the above was enough.

That's the problem it was a quick fire response. And I suspect that the above line is also a quick fire response. If I have claimed to have had consentual sex with a woman I have just met and she then cries rape later is that not a "difficult thing to prove". We are human and we make mistakes.

Quote from: "DevlinC"Anyone you care about ever been raped?

Sorry but this is another thread. We are talking about crime and punishment here and if you want to ask me about the poor quality of victim support in this country and how victims can feel worthless and simply a statistic by the system then do it in another thread. Otherwise this thread is just going to get too complicated.