Author Topic: Bond  (Read 28337 times)

Bond
« on: December 28, 2017, 01:05:52 AM »
So just casually marathoned all the Bond films over the last few weeks. I can't even remember how many of them I've actually seen previously, but I just decided to get them all done because why not. Let's rate each film:

Dr. No - quite good

From Russia With Love - really good

Goldfinger - the best, probably

Thunderball - too long and a bit boring

You Only Live Twice - perhaps my personal favourite from the Connery films, although not objectively as good as FRWL or Goldfinger

On Her Majesty's Secret Service - always talked about as being forgotten and underappreciated, it was OK, some of it was interesting, but Lazenby's a bore

Diamonds Are Forever - just a bit...ehh

Live and Let Die - liked it

The Man with the Golden Gun - a bit underrated, apart from the Lulu theme song

The Spy Who Loved Me - another one of the best, Partridge was right

Moonraker - just about OK

For Your Eyes Only - absolutely mediocre, bordering on shite

Octopussy - shite

A View to a Kill - worse than shite, although I quite enjoyed the idea of Roger Moore shagging Grace Jones

The Living Daylights - criminally underrated, Dalton is a gem, perhaps up there with the best of them

License to Kill - bit boring, but it had Benicio Del Toro and the FBI guy from Die Hard in it

GoldenEye - decent, but no more than that

Tomorrow Never Dies - the film almost literally never stops for plot or character development or anything, it's just one action set piece after another, poor

The World Is Not Enough - plot doesn't make a lick of sense but it's better than TND

Die Another Day - honestly up there among the worst films I've watched (not objectively but you know what I mean), and I'm well versed in the direct-to-video stuff of the likes of Seagal, Van Damme, and Snipes, not even so bad it's good, just an absolute waste of 2 hours

Casino Royale - bloody great, among the best

Quantum of Solace - better than people give it credit for

Skyfall - very good

Spectre - they fucked it

As far as the different Bonds go:

Connery is the man. He is James Bond and always will be. Although it's kind of interesting how the fact he was originally Bond has set in people's minds the idea of what Bond should be like, and results in negative reaction to someone like Dalton. The idea of him always being the best Bond is perhaps an idea set mainly by nostalgia for the "original".

Lazenby doesn't really count as he only really gets one film, although his Bond is a bit of a nicer but boring guy, who's also more vulnerable and emotional. His portrayal is interesting.

Moore definitely makes the role his own but his schtick gets tiring quickly and he he stayed on for about 3 films too many. He makes his films essentially different from Connery's and I like that, they're enjoyable romps.

Dalton's Bond is a criminally underrated one and in my mind still manages to maintain the inherent nature of James Bond while being serious and darker. He's almost like Craig's Bond at the end of his development as a character.

Brosnan is utterly mediocre and basically just tries to ape Connery. The lack of ambition in his portrayal is reflected in the films he did and the fact they aren't exactly fondly remembered as Bond classics.

Craig is brilliant, and managed to reinvent and redefine Bond in his own way. The development of his Bond from Casino Royale through Quantum of Solace to Skyfall is so wonderfully done. His character's kinda flatlined with Spectre though and I would have probably preferred if he decided to go now instead of doing another film (and possibly more) and entering that horrible latter Moore territory.

That's all I can think of right now. Don't know why I'm even posting this, but whatever.

Blumf

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Re: Bond
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 02:19:12 AM »
Note you missed out Casino Royale (1967) and Never Say Never Again. Not Eon, and certainly not classics by any stretch, but still, for completeness.

Really love Craig's Bond, but I just don't think any of his films have nailed it. Closest was Casino Royale, but well, I can barely remember the plot details (Vesper and shifting money about for... ZZZZZzzzzz). QoS had production problems with the writing, IIRC, which resulted in more dullness. Skyfall was nice enough, but far too 'meta' for greatness, and Spectre, as you say, stuffed it.

I'm not sure what I want. I know we can't go back to the sharks-with-lasers goofiness of main sequence Bond, but the try-hard grittiness of the recent films looses something (and here's where I pitch gritty and cynical, 1950s/60s period, Harry Palmer as an alternative spy series that needs a reboot). I wonder if it's the end of the Cold War that robbed Bond of it's raison d'être; the most enjoyable Bond usually existed as the idea that the Soviet Union wasn't a problem, it was them evil geniuses and their mad plans that were the real threat. That escapism is missing now.

Re: Bond
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 02:28:12 AM »
Note you missed out Casino Royale (1967) and Never Say Never Again. Not Eon, and certainly not classics by any stretch, but still, for completeness.

Also this 1954 Casino Royale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztsXWp0nj2c

newbridge

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Re: Bond
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 03:03:53 AM »
Wrong. GoldenEye is the best Bond film.

Correct. Die Another Day is the worst Bond film.

Kelvin

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Re: Bond
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 03:07:59 AM »
I always feel Die Another Day gets a slightly bum wrap.

It's utter garbage, of course, but the sort of fun, entertaining garbage that also describes a whole slew of the mid tier Bonds. Lazy weekend TV.

Re: Bond
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 03:20:50 AM »
I have a soft spot for Moonraker as it was the first Bond I saw in the cinema, as Michel Lonsdale is an underrated villain ("Look after Mr Bond.  See that some harm comes to him.") and as I distinctly remember thinking as I watched it that Lois Chiles was the most beautiful woman in the world.

Even as a kid though I thought the Star Wars climax was desperate.

Re: Bond
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 03:21:09 AM »
I always feel Die Another Day gets a slightly bum wrap.

It's utter garbage, of course, but the sort of fun, entertaining garbage that also describes a whole slew of the mid tier Bonds. Lazy weekend TV.
https://youtu.be/i_y7YEIphts?t=80

Re: Bond
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 03:42:16 AM »
I always feel Die Another Day gets a slightly bum wrap.

It's utter garbage, of course, but the sort of fun, entertaining garbage that also describes a whole slew of the mid tier Bonds. Lazy weekend TV.

Theres a lack of charm to it for me though, it feels like a cross between a bad action film and some glossy fashion advert. The lesser Moore Bonds on the other hand or Diamonds are Forever get by far more on a camp charm.

I would agree The Living Daylights is very underrated, preffer it to any of the Brosnan bonds personally.

The problem with Spectre for me is that the script doesn't really hold together, a lot of good stuff in it action wise, an excellent scene with Mr White and a Bond girl who actually has some edge to her but the Blofeld or C stories don't really grab me much and Craig seems rather uninterested.

Kelvin

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Re: Bond
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 03:51:01 AM »
Theres a lack of charm to it for me though, it feels like a cross between a bad action film and some glossy fashion advert. The lesser Moore Bonds on the other hand tend to have a good deal more appeal for me.

I actually think the garish stupidity is part of the charm, though. In another film, I'd hate it, but as part of Bond, there's something genuinely wierd and unexpected about the invisible car, robo-suits, tidal wave surfing etc. It's like an alien's take on the series, or a really high budget remake of kids playing Bond in the playground. I think it would be far worse if the series had actually continued down that road, but as a stand alone moment of madness, I think it's entertaining enough in it's own way.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:10:37 AM by Kelvin »

Re: Bond
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 04:50:37 AM »
Die Another Day was the highest-grossing Bond up to that point, so it’s impressive they had the guts to pull back completely for Casino Royale. Paid off though.

itsfredtitmus

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Re: Bond
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 04:57:45 AM »
i like johnny english

Re: Bond
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 08:09:00 AM »
I always feel Die Another Day gets a slightly bum wrap.

It's utter garbage, of course, but the sort of fun, entertaining garbage that also describes a whole slew of the mid tier Bonds. Lazy weekend TV.

I agree. Most everything about Halle Berry's character is embarrassing (remember when they were developing a spin-off movie for her with Stephen Fears directing?), and there is some truly awful dialogue, beyond that I have fondish memories. The first half-hour or so felt genuinely quite fresh at the time as well. I certainly find it more memorable than the other Brosnan films, which all seem kind of bland to me, TWINE in particular. There may come a day when people don't look so harshly on it, in the same way Moonraker has been reappraised; I suspect not, but maybe.

Re: Bond
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 08:24:05 AM »
I like the way Dalton delivers the Bond one-liners. All the other actors relish it, camp it up a little or a lot, but Dalton delivers them through gritted teeth. At one point he actually just sighs "piss off".

Neomod

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Re: Bond
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 08:48:27 AM »
I like the way Dalton delivers the Bond one-liners. All the other actors relish it, camp it up a little or a lot, but Dalton delivers them through gritted teeth. At one point he actually just sighs "piss off".

He definitely makes a point of throwing away "Bond, James Bond" at the beginning of The Living Daylights.

Re: Bond
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 08:54:34 AM »
Yes.

I posted this in an old thread, but: Dalton was also very good at the "for God's sake, woman!" Bond angle, an oft-overlooked part of the character.

"Switch the bloody machine off!"

"Why didn't you learn the violin?"

biggytitbo

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Re: Bond
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 08:58:38 AM »
Best Bond film: Quantum of Solace
Worst Bond film: Die Another Day


Best Bond: Roger Moore
Worst Bond: Pierce Brosnan x 100


CLOSE THREAD.




Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 08:59:11 AM »
Wrong. GoldenEye is the best Bond film.

Yup. Many of the others have good bits, but also lots of boring bits. I'd put Goldfinger and Live and Let Die as my joint favourites with GoldenEye.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 09:00:04 AM »
Daniel Craig is the worst Bond.

grassbath

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Re: Bond
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 10:56:30 AM »
Goldfinger would be the best, but watching it again a year or two ago I was surprised by how boring the third quarter or so was - malarkeying about at Goldfinger's stables, unnecessarily drawn out suspense with the Fort Knox laser and the flight pattern with the soldiers all getting gassed, just made it feel really overlong. You Only Live Twice has the same problem - lean action and mystery and tons of classic set-pieces for the most part, but the actual 'villain's base reveal' section just goes on and on and kills the pacing.

Brundle-Fly

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Re: Bond
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 02:41:15 PM »

Brosnan is utterly mediocre and basically just tries to ape Connery. The lack of ambition in his portrayal is reflected in the films he did and the fact they aren't exactly fondly remembered as Bond classics.


That's a little unfair. Rewatching all his Bond movies again recently, I thought he had much more in common with Roger Moore than Connery. The scripts verge on Carry On films at times. I find PB rather charming and his outings have some of the best action sequences and stunts of the whole series. He set it all up for Craig nicely.

Re: Bond
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 04:15:19 PM »
Bond is wank but it's good 'nothing else is on let's watch this on itv2 until bedtime' viewing.

Re: Bond
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 04:30:05 PM »
I think the Brosnan films reflect the dull and safe action films that were knocking about in the mid to late 1990s. Stuff like 'Air Force One' and 'The Negotiator'. Toned down PG versions of Die Hard/Lethal Weapon.
GoldenEye is still great though. It has so much to chew on with the deconstruction of Bond in a post Cold War world. Brosnan's next few films got progressively worse and campy.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 04:37:07 PM »
Goldeneye is the only really good one of his run, but he made a perfect Bond for me, and I don't know who else was around at the time that could've played him better.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 04:39:43 PM »
Goldfinger would be the best, but watching it again a year or two ago I was surprised by how boring the third quarter or so was

This is the case with all Connery's Bonds. He may have aced the role, and we all remember the best bits, but the films are a bit of a slog to get through now. While Roger Moore's mostly lack any similar longueurs.

Re: Bond
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 04:52:11 PM »
Yup. Many of the others have good bits, but also lots of boring bits. I'd put Goldfinger and Live and Let Die as my joint favourites with GoldenEye.

I dont believe that Goldeneye is the best Bond film although it's one of the better ones. It's real success, and Brosnan's, was reinvigorating an almost dead franchise, perhaps on the back of britpop and the fucking loaded generation and Cool Britannia, in the uk anyway.  Had Goldeneye failed it probably would have capsized and sunk forever the Bond franchise. And that's why I hate it.

I'm sure there's a scene in a Connery film when Bond 'slaps some sense' into one of the bond girls.  Am i imagining it? Anyway, real or not, that's the point started to hate Bond films.

Re: Bond
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 04:55:47 PM »
Note you missed out Casino Royale (1967) and Never Say Never Again. Not Eon, and certainly not classics by any stretch, but still, for completeness.

Yeah, they weren't Eon so I thought I didn't need another 2 films to add on to the 24 I was planning to watch. I'll get round to them someday though.

That's a little unfair. Rewatching all his Bond movies again recently, I thought he had much more in common with Roger Moore than Connery. The scripts verge on Carry On films at times. I find PB rather charming and his outings have some of the best action sequences and stunts of the whole series. He set it all up for Craig nicely.

I was perhaps a bit harsh on him, he's OK but I just find him very boring and devoid of giving his own unique personality to Bond. I can see a bit of Moore in there but he just seems much more aligned with Connery, at least to me.

Quite surprised at the love for GoldenEye here though. It's the best of the Brosnan films but I still don't think it's particularly amazing. I thought the dam intro and some of the other stunts were great (although the stunts more so in Tomorrow Never Dies), but I didn't particularly care for Sean Bean's villain.

I think the Brosnan films reflect the dull and safe action films that were knocking about in the mid to late 1990s. Stuff like 'Air Force One' and 'The Negotiator'. Toned down PG versions of Die Hard/Lethal Weapon.
GoldenEye is still great though. It has so much to chew on with the deconstruction of Bond in a post Cold War world. Brosnan's next few films got progressively worse and campy.

Yeah, "safe" perfectly describes the Brosnan films for me. They're acceptable viewing although generally unambitious (aside from maybe Die Another Day, which is ambitious but in the completely wrong way).

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 05:14:15 PM »
I'm sure there's a scene in a Connery film when Bond 'slaps some sense' into one of the bond girls.  Am i imagining it?

Nope. Several examples here.

https://youtu.be/YJWfObq2cFk

Brundle-Fly

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Re: Bond
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 05:43:31 PM »
I dont believe that Goldeneye is the best Bond film although it's one of the better ones. It's real success, and Brosnan's, was reinvigorating an almost dead franchise, perhaps on the back of britpop and the fucking loaded generation and Cool Britannia, in the uk anyway.  Had Goldeneye failed it probably would have capsized and sunk forever the Bond franchise. And that's why I hate it.

I'm sure there's a scene in a Connery film when Bond 'slaps some sense' into one of the bond girls.  Am i imagining it? Anyway, real or not, that's the point started to hate Bond films.

Bond is a horrible damaged man, I don't believe he was ever meant to be seen as a paragon of virtue. How did you feel about the murdering in cold blood too?

But yes, I can understand why he is a big turn off for a lot of people. Especially those under forty.  My ex gf hated Connery for this but liked Roger.

Re: Bond
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 05:50:24 PM »
Bond is a horrible damaged man, I don't believe he was ever meant to be seen as a paragon of virtue. How did you feel about the murdering in cold blood too?

But yes, I can understand why he is a big turn off for a lot of people. Especially those under forty.  My ex gf hated Connery for this but liked Roger.

In most of the film he's never portrayed as a horrible damaged man. An arsehole or a twat, yes, but the films never reach that with bond.  Cold blooded murder is another reason to not like Bond films yes.

Thomas

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Re: Bond
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2017, 06:07:01 PM »
He's not meant to be a virtuous role model, but he is meant to be cool. From characterisation, names, and even simply the framing of female characters in the earlier films, it's easy to infer that Bond's sexism is not supposed to be an example of his damage, but part of his masculine cool - and, indeed, an objective part of the world around him, bristling with the nominative determinism of Dr. Goodheads and Pussy Galores.

I think it was only eventually addressed as a character flaw by M in GoldenEye, when she called out the sly old sleazebag for being 'a sexist, misogynist dinosaur', to which he rattled his ice cubes and went off into the cake-and-eating-it world of the film to meet Xenia Onatopp. Before that, I'd say it was fully intended to be part of the traditional man's man cool of Bond and his world.