Author Topic: Bond  (Read 28282 times)

Brundle-Fly

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Re: Bond
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2017, 06:07:55 PM »
In most of the film he's never portrayed as a horrible damaged man. An arsehole or a twat, yes, but the films never reach that with bond.  Cold blooded murder is another reason to not like Bond films yes.

All in one's interpretation, I suppose? Digging deeper in the Fleming novels, you get a better insight. And not forgetting the context of the time.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2017, 06:08:09 PM »
Cold blooded murder is another reason to not like Bond films yes.

It's not murder, he's got a License To Kill.

biggytitbo

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Re: Bond
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2017, 06:10:47 PM »
Goldeneye is the only really good one of his run, but he made a perfect Bond for me, and I don't know who else was around at the time that could've played him better.

Mr Motivator would have done it better. Brosnan is shockingly bad, with that loaf on his head and the permasmirk.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: Bond
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2017, 06:11:54 PM »
Does Bond in the films ever murder anyone who isn't either a murderer, drug trafficker or a henchperson of a murderer/drug trafficker? It's hard to have any sympathy for those Bond kills and could it be argued that, had Bond not murdered them, they might have killed or helped the person they worked for to kill more people?

I imagine Bond in the books does kill the odd innocent person but isn't that bothered about it.

Brundle-Fly

  • I'm so Avant-garden variety
Re: Bond
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2017, 06:13:08 PM »
He's not meant to be a virtuous role model, but he is meant to be cool.

The only aspects I thought were cool about Bond movies were, in order (with exceptions): the music, the art design, the suits, the motors, the henchmen, Q and his gadgets, the explosions, the lovely girls and Roger Moore's wryness. I never really wanted to be 007.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2017, 06:15:42 PM »
Mr Motivator would have done it better. Brosnan is shockingly bad, with that loaf on his head and the permasmirk.

The thing about your Bond yeah, it's all personal opinions innit. Brosnan is a very good Bond, other people (wrongly) think Daniel Craig is good at playing Bond. This is why I always like Bond threads on here, nobody agrees on anything. As Jesus Christ Himself said, 'it would be a very boring world if we all thought the same thing.'

Thomas

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Re: Bond
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2017, 06:16:50 PM »
It was actually Judas who said that.

Re: Bond
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2017, 06:17:52 PM »
Lazenby was the best bond anyway.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2017, 06:31:27 PM »
Does Bond in the films ever murder anyone who isn't either a murderer, drug trafficker or a henchperson of a murderer/drug trafficker?

He sometimes lets innocent people die, a recent example in Skyfall, when Severine, who has swapped sides and is looking for Bond to help her escape the sex ring she's trapped in, is shot by the bad guy while Bond does nothing to stop him. He makes his move after she is dead, but could've done it before.

http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/S%C3%A9v%C3%A9rine

(It's the same woman he goes uninvited into the shower with, just after she's been rescued, a scene that many have found 'problematic.' That he later doesn't try to stop her being shot, after having his way with her, is too shitty even for 007)

Re: Bond
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2017, 07:19:00 PM »
Goldfinger is bafflingly overrated to me. The whole second half of the film is an awful drag with little to no tension, and the plane gassing sequence is just laughable. Yes, it introduced us to many familiar tropes of the series - but that doesn’t make it the best. If we’re talking Connery, Dr. No I think is probably the best, followed closely by FRWL. I’d even go so far to rank Goldfinger as one of the weakest of the lot.

Best Bonds? GoldenEye is indeed up there, as is Licence to Kill and Living Daylights (Dalton is terrific).

I also adore all the Moore entries apart from the first two. I’ve a real soft spot for Octopussy actually, it’s a real boys-own adventure serial type vibe to it. Bags of fun. 80s Bond is underrated.

All Craig’s films are largely shocking apart from the excellent Casino Royale. I wish they’d stop linking them up and trying to make a heartfelt saga out of the bloody thing. Send him on a mission, let him complete the mission and be done with it! The last 3 Craig entries have been wasted opportunities, made doubly dissapointing by the fact these films have 4 year gaps between releases.

Best Bond?
1. Dalton
2. Moore
3. Connery
4. Brosnan
5. Lazenby
6. Craig

People offended by Bond’s misogyny should probably stay away from films/life in general, by the way.,




Re: Bond
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2017, 07:40:57 PM »
The best Bond film is the opening scenes with Michael Fassbender in Xmen: First Class.

Dr Rock

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Re: Bond
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2017, 07:46:00 PM »
Re Bond's misogyny - I suppose one thing to say is he's probably a sociopath and kills men and women alike without giving a shit. Does he have a problem with women especially? He doesn't care who he has to slap or kill if they are in his way. Also he's usually saving the world, so he probably thinks it's justifiable.

thecuriousorange

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Re: Bond
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2017, 08:22:51 PM »
How much is Goldeneye's reputation boosted by memories of the N64 game we all loved? A lot, I'd say.

Best Bond film of the 90s, not that there was stiff competition.

mothman

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Re: Bond
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2017, 08:43:22 PM »
I blow hot and cold on Goldeneye. At times it feels quite horribly dated in all the ways it was trying to be with-it and reinventing Bond for the 90s, all the post-Cold War imagery, the knowing digs at the problematic areas of the Bond brand and Bond's psyche. But then the last time I saw it I still enjoyed it quite a lot. I sometimes wonder if thei film, and even Brosnan's tenure in the role, are being damned by association by his other three entries, which don't seem to feature in many people's list of favourites (to put it charitably).

Plus, much as I love many of the Luv Besson films which showcase his work, fuck is Eric Serra's work on this terrible. Every so often you hear these little "pok" noises that are him deciding that what the soundtrack needs at this point is the sound of somebody hitting a piece of bamboo, or whatever it is. And then letting him sing over the end credits. I've no problem with there being an end-credits song - really, kd lang's Surrender should have been the title theme to Tomorrow Never Dies - but Serra's has to be the worst ever (though Madonna and Sam Smith had a good try at the title).

Re: Bond
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2017, 08:55:58 PM »

biggytitbo

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Re: Bond
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 09:51:24 PM »
Top 5 Bond films

1 Quantum of Solace
2 A View to a Kill
3 Casino Royale
4 The Man With the Golden Gun
5 Diamonds are Forever

Top 5 Bonds

1 Roger Moore
2 Daniel Craig
3 Sean Connery
4 Timothy Dalton
5 George Lazenby

Brundle-Fly

  • I'm so Avant-garden variety
Re: Bond
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2017, 10:14:59 PM »
Top 5 Bond films

1 Quantum of Solace
2 A View to a Kill
3 Casino Royale
4 The Man With the Golden Gun
5 Diamonds are Forever

Top 5 Bonds

1 Roger Moore
2 Daniel Craig
3 Sean Connery
4 Timothy Dalton
5 George Lazenby

Velly intalesting, Meester Bond!

Re: Bond
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2017, 11:02:08 PM »
I dont believe that Goldeneye is the best Bond film although it's one of the better ones. It's real success, and Brosnan's, was reinvigorating an almost dead franchise, perhaps on the back of britpop and the fucking loaded generation and Cool Britannia, in the uk anyway.  Had Goldeneye failed it probably would have capsized and sunk forever the Bond franchise. And that's why I hate it.

That's an interesting point. Although I may dislike Brosnan, perhaps in a way he was exactly the right guy for that time, bringing Bond back closer to its roots and giving it another lease of life. In saying that, we don't know what would have happened to the franchise if they had stuck with the same sort of stuff they did in Die Another Day at the end of Brosnan's tenure instead of taking a completely different approach with Craig and Casino Royale that turned out to be a massive success.

imitationleather

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Re: Bond
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2017, 11:14:45 PM »
He sometimes lets innocent people die, a recent example in Skyfall, when Severine, who has swapped sides and is looking for Bond to help her escape the sex ring she's trapped in, is shot by the bad guy while Bond does nothing to stop him. He makes his move after she is dead, but could've done it before.

http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/S%C3%A9v%C3%A9rine

(It's the same woman he goes uninvited into the shower with, just after she's been rescued, a scene that many have found 'problematic.' That he later doesn't try to stop her being shot, after having his way with her, is too shitty even for 007)

I'm not a Bond fan but have been essentially forced to go and see three of Daniel Craig's films at the cinema and endured them. While I never got the impression he's supposed to be a top bloke, that bit of Skyfall genuinely shocked me and just didn't seem consistent with a character who we're meant to root for. If I recall correctly, doesn't he make a quip directly after she's shot? It probably says so in that link, I should just click it shouldn't I? Anyway, afterwards nobody else seemed to have a problem or think it was a weird thing to include so I just sort of forgot about it until now. I just put it down to Bond really not being for me, I guess.

Re: Bond
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2017, 10:06:28 AM »
I'm not a Bond fan but have been essentially forced to go and see three of Daniel Craig's films at the cinema and endured them. While I never got the impression he's supposed to be a top bloke, that bit of Skyfall genuinely shocked me and just didn't seem consistent with a character who we're meant to root for. If I recall correctly, doesn't he make a quip directly after she's shot? It probably says so in that link, I should just click it shouldn't I? Anyway, afterwards nobody else seemed to have a problem or think it was a weird thing to include so I just sort of forgot about it until now. I just put it down to Bond really not being for me, I guess.

Yep. "Waste of good Scotch." Prick.

I reckon the filmmakers knew exactly what they were doing with that bit. Bond is a misogynist and there's no getting around that, really. Skyfall is definitely one of the best in the series but there's some seriously dodgy 'messages' in that film: Women can't shoot straight and are better suited to desk jobs while men do the real work. That film reminds me a little of 'The Dark Knight Rises' in that both films come off as (unintentionally?) somewhat fascist.

monkfromhavana

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Re: Bond
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2017, 12:02:53 AM »
Does Bond in the films ever murder anyone who isn't either a murderer, drug trafficker or a henchperson of a murderer/drug trafficker? It's hard to have any sympathy for those Bond kills and could it be argued that, had Bond not murdered them, they might have killed or helped the person they worked for to kill more people?

I imagine Bond in the books does kill the odd innocent person but isn't that bothered about it.

I'm just tossing these thoughts off, but I'd say wasting all the henchmen in something like Moonraker isn't great. The only way they could get so many henchmen to do their bidding is if these evil masterminds created it as a cult. Sailing off into space while the world meets its fate is all very Heaven's Gate / doomsday cult.

I'd suggest that the henchmen should been seen as victims too, and not just casually wasted (except in self-defence) by Bond. Couldn't he just bonk them on the head?

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: Bond
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2017, 12:13:57 AM »
Nah, I think 'henching', is a career choice, as portrayed in The Venture Bros. Pays well, attracts mercenary types. They'd kill Bond, or anyone else, so they are fair game to get killed.

The cult aspect of the Moonraker volunteers is a bit different though, not sure why so many innocent types were willing to go off into space unless it was like a cult. Do they get saved or die?

itsfredtitmus

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Re: Bond
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2017, 01:11:08 AM »
Bond is wank but it's good 'nothing else is on let's watch this on itv2 until bedtime' viewing.
funny because that's how i always end up watching johnny english

Kelvin

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Re: Bond
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2017, 01:48:56 AM »
Yep. "Waste of good Scotch." Prick.

I reckon the filmmakers knew exactly what they were doing with that bit. Bond is a misogynist and there's no getting around that, really.

Yes. The character (and films) are unquestionably sexist to various extents, but I think that specific line, in context, is an example of Bond's bravado, rather than actual misogyny in the script. It's the character of Bond not wanting to look phased by the cold blooded murder he's partially responsible for, rather than the writer/s trying to make the character look "cool". 

Of all the incarnations, Craig's is the only one where his misogyny is often (not always) portrayed as a character flaw, in my opinion. Up until then, the character is almost always portrayed as "cool"/suave because he treats women badly, and with no suggestion that this is a problem, but almost something men should aspire to. In Craig's films, the scripts hop back and forth between legitimately portraying those characteristics as unpleasant, and more cynically trying to have their cake and eat it; suggesting that it's a part of his character, but still a fairly rewarding or appealing one.

I was actually thinking about this the other day, and wondering how the series can get past this fundamental problem with the character and audience expectations. Either consistently portray him as a sexist bastard with an unpleasant character flaw*, or else shift the character so he isn't so contemptuous, manipulative and callous towards the women he meets. I don't think they can continue to both condemn his behavior, and also glamorise it.

*To be clear, I mean that the films would need to consistently portray that characteristic negatively. 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 02:00:28 AM by Kelvin »

Re: Bond
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2017, 02:51:48 AM »
Goldeneye is the only really good one of his run, but he made a perfect Bond for me, and I don't know who else was around at the time that could've played him better.

I would say though actually part of the reason he works in Goldeneye is exactly because he's such a clichéd fusion of previous Bonds which plays into the idea of him as a cold war relic very nicely. The films that come afterwards largely abandon this and just play him straight with much blander results.

Quote
This is the case with all Connery's Bonds. He may have aced the role, and we all remember the best bits, but the films are a bit of a slog to get through now. While Roger Moore's mostly lack any similar longueurs.

They don't have the culture credibility but yeah I do tend to think that the Moore Bonds were really just doing the same thing as the Coonery stuff post Russia With Love but doing it better without protracted dullness.

Re: Bond
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2017, 03:07:02 AM »
Yep. "Waste of good Scotch." Prick.

I reckon the filmmakers knew exactly what they were doing with that bit. Bond is a misogynist and there's no getting around that, really. Skyfall is definitely one of the best in the series but there's some seriously dodgy 'messages' in that film: Women can't shoot straight and are better suited to desk jobs while men do the real work. That film reminds me a little of 'The Dark Knight Rises' in that both films come off as (unintentionally?) somewhat fascist.

I would say "not shooting straight" actually made for a better character than your typical bland "kickass girl" though, it was more that the film painted itself into a corner after that having to shift the character to her traditional role, it would probably have been better off having her as someone else entirely.

As Kelvin says I think the character pre Craig was more sexist in its bravado fantasy than anything else, the scripts basically bends over backwards to make sure this is never a serious negative, the women are all willing and any that get killed along the way get put down soley to the badies.

kidsick5000

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Re: Bond
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2017, 04:52:19 AM »
Goldeneye is the only really good one of his run, but he made a perfect Bond for me, and I don't know who else was around at the time that could've played him better.

Paul McGann was on standby should Brosnan get gazumped by contracts again.
Would he have been as good? Not sure.
But he would have had the same advantage that both Brosnan and Craig enjoyed which was having Martin Campbell as director, (even though both Goldeneye and Casino suffer from a section where all the energy saps from the film to an extent that almost induces memory loss.)

I think Craig is an excellent Bond in all of his excursions, even if the films aren't that good (though I'll put QOS way above Spectre.)

Bronson has moments of Bond (the opening of World Is Not Enough is a great little Bond film, the rest is meh.

Dalton's era suffered in many ways. Keeping John Glen as director, pandering to a more cautious world, a shift in politics that couldn't find a decent villain, budget constraints, Dalton's hair...

Moore is brilliant in Live And Let Die (still one of my top Bond films). As much as I find his films entertaining, as they go on, each film is a split between him being Roger Moore and occasionally Bond moments.

Lazenby is the eternal tragedy. The best Bond story with the actor I just can't buy as Bond. I really wish they'd just bite the bullet and redo it with Craig.

Connery, of course. Still has enough charm and magnetism to get you through the slog that is Thunderball. But he has a very mixed bag. I still don't get the adulation for From Russia With Love.
Diamonds Are Forever is a truly bizarre thing seemingly made by people who didn't want to be there.
It shows how much better people age these days. It's hard to believe that he was only 40 when he filmed it. He looks closer to 60.


« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 05:31:18 AM by kidsick5000 »

Ant Farm Keyboard

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Re: Bond
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2017, 12:58:34 PM »
I would say "not shooting straight" actually made for a better character than your typical bland "kickass girl" though, it was more that the film painted itself into a corner after that having to shift the character to her traditional role, it would probably have been better off having her as someone else entirely.

As Kelvin says I think the character pre Craig was more sexist in its bravado fantasy than anything else, the scripts basically bends over backwards to make sure this is never a serious negative, the women are all willing and any that get killed along the way get put down soley to the badies.

It is explained in much detail that Moneypenny herself thought it was a dangerous shot, from a long distance, with a moving target, and she only fired because M ordered it, after asking for confirmation. Bond also doesn't blame her for it, as she had no choice. Moneypenny ultimately can't cope with the stress such missions ask, and moves to an office position.

It's actually clever, as it allows writers to recreate the old flirting dynamics between Bond and Moneypenny in a totally different context. In the Connery and Maxwell days, it would have been out of the question for the secretary to the head of MI6 to have a fling with one of his secret agents, so all they could do was talk. With time passing, they kept the flirting, but it implied making Moneypenny more of an idiot who can't realize that Bond isn't into her. It was very noticeable with Samantha Bond and Brosnan. They just didn't know what to do with her. The Skyfall shaving scene was actually written for Die Another Day, but they realized that it wouldn't work, and they used instead this totally stupid moment with Moneypenny ending up with Bond thanks to the virtual reality helmet, which ends the movie, so they could have a noticeable moment for Moneypenny.

Now, in the new "continuity," they have established that Bond and Moneypenny care for each other, that there is some definite sexual tension between them, but that they're both aware that having sex wouldn't do them any good in the long run.

Re: Bond
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2017, 01:26:49 PM »
I watched Skyfall the other week and that shaving scene. I reckon they definitely shagged after that. In Spectre when Bond rings MoneyPenny during the car chase he gets jealous when he finds out she's in bed with someone else. Their dialogue implies they tried to make a go of a relationship but he was always away.

Re: Bond
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2017, 01:41:41 PM »
It is explained in much detail that Moneypenny herself thought it was a dangerous shot, from a long distance, with a moving target, and she only fired because M ordered it, after asking for confirmation. Bond also doesn't blame her for it, as she had no choice. Moneypenny ultimately can't cope with the stress such missions ask, and moves to an office position.

It's actually clever, as it allows writers to recreate the old flirting dynamics between Bond and Moneypenny in a totally different context. In the Connery and Maxwell days, it would have been out of the question for the secretary to the head of MI6 to have a fling with one of his secret agents, so all they could do was talk. With time passing, they kept the flirting, but it implied making Moneypenny more of an idiot who can't realize that Bond isn't into her. It was very noticeable with Samantha Bond and Brosnan. They just didn't know what to do with her. The Skyfall shaving scene was actually written for Die Another Day, but they realized that it wouldn't work, and they used instead this totally stupid moment with Moneypenny ending up with Bond thanks to the virtual reality helmet, which ends the movie, so they could have a noticeable moment for Moneypenny.

Now, in the new "continuity," they have established that Bond and Moneypenny care for each other, that there is some definite sexual tension between them, but that they're both aware that having sex wouldn't do them any good in the long run.

Yeah, I thought the way Moneypenny was handled in Skyfall was quite good - gave some history between her and Bond beyond just some random secretary he flirts with, and actually made the character somewhat interesting. Watching Connery/Moore have his usual flirting scene with Lois Maxwell's Moneypenny just got repetitive after the third time. I'm glad Moneypenny got a more involved role in Spectre and hope that will continue.

I watched Skyfall the other week and that shaving scene. I reckon they definitely shagged after that. In Spectre when Bond rings MoneyPenny during the car chase he gets jealous when he finds out she's in bed with someone else. Their dialogue implies they tried to make a go of a relationship but he was always away.

I don't really think they shagged after that. The scene in Spectre where she's in bed with another guy and Bond is taken aback isn't an indication of some prior sexual relationship for me, but rather a switch of the dynamic from what Moneypenny was in films gone by to Bond becoming that - in the past Moneypenny was absolutely smitten with Bond and didn't seem to go for anybody else (going so far as crying at Bond's wedding in OHMSS), even though Bond went for other romantic and sexual partners he disposed of when he felt like it and never Moneypenny. For Craig's Bond it seems he is smitten with Moneypenny and wants her but seemingly cannot get her, probably because she wants a settled normal relationship and that is not possible with James Bond. The jealousy over Moneypenny having some other sexual partner indicates Bond's controlling and abusive nature, and the negative effects of his nymphomania (which Moneypenny probably wisely wants to avoid).