Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 1)

[Small Man Big Horse]

Capaldi had a big speech in Into The Dalek towards the end which I quite liked, it wasn't his very best work but it's a decent enough thing. Not the shitty "Am I a good man?" one though, it had a weird cgi background behind it.

[Bourgyste]

As for Jodies interpretation of the Doctor - there's very little 'Doctor' elements to her. The most Doctory thing she's done is zap herself with the phone in the first episode and say 'that was a great nap'. She just comes across like a really nice borderline autistic, 'wacky' over confident scientist. There's no other worldly element to her whatsoever.

Because we have a woman Doctor and I am still not quite there with that - for no other reason outside of just being accustomed to a man - I don't trust my view of her interpretation just yet. At this point I like her acting more than her interpretation but she appears to not have the arrogance and been-through-this-before-ness of other Doctors. And simple things bother me with the writing and I think I am just noticing it more. For example, I don't know why she had to explain why she thought the scientist knew more than she was letting on. It seems a non point but I'd just rather she had simply put it to her that she knew more than she is letting on.

[Mister Six]

Smith: Pandorica Speech "I. AM. TALKING!!!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa74e8oAvIM

That's what got him the job in Ryan Gosling's directorial debut, Lost River.

"One day I was watching TV. I heard Matt Smith's voice coming at me. It was Doctor Who and there was an episode where he was in a car screaming at these aliens and telling them where to go. Like a boss. Just telling all these spaceships what was what.

"As an actor I know that's pretty hard to do, because I'm pretty sure those spaceships weren't there. I thought, 'Who is this guy?'" Gosling said.

"There's no-one like him. He's like one of those actors from the Seventies, just themselves and nobody else. I said, 'I have to work with that guy.' So I tracked him down."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11524161/Ryan-Gosling-I-fell-in-love-with-Matt-Smith-on-Doctor-Who.html

Obviously he's misremembering the car. I can't see what other episode it could be.

_{I still miss Matt's Doctor.}

[Cloud]

Ahh some quality speeches there.  Really hope we get one soon...

The 'SJW' stuff isn't more to the forefront, really, though. A female Doctor and a diverse cast doesn't make the show 'unapologetically leftie', and the character of the Doctor has always been anti-guns, anti-racism, etc.

More importantly, none of those elements are the problem with the current series, and so I strongly disagree that it validates right wing criticisms, when the same episodes would be just as badly written and boring with a male Doctor and three blond, blue eyed white companions.

I know the Doctor has always been like that and always been a liberal show... and please don't get me wrong, I'm on its side... I just mean with it being so direct and "on the nose" with it as several people have remarked.

I don't think it validates right wing criticisms as that's a pretty hard to thing to do, just that being so preachy and obvious may be a form of ammunition for them that's all.  Or it might get them to write it off and fuck off and find something else to make right wing rants about which of course would be better.

[Mister Six]

It's all from the same speech, isn't it. About remembering his family: "Oh yes, I can when I want to. And that's the point, really. I have to really want to, to bring them back in front of my eyes. The rest of the time they sleep in my mind, and I forget. And so will you. Oh yes, you will. You'll find there's so much else to think about. So remember, our lives are different to anybody else's. That's the exciting thing. There's nobody in the universe can do what we're doing... "

Chibbers gave us an anodyne version of that after Grace karked it in the first episode. The fact that you've already forgotten it says everything.

[Bourgyste]

People have great memories. i can't recall the great speeches at all. Best I can muster is Eleven's where he says 'we are all memories'. Matt Smith's acting with Amelia pond is some of the finest ever seen in Doctor Who in my opinion. I bought every word and tic.

[Mister Six]

We're all memories is a classic. Capaldi's speech from The Zygon Inversion was great too, and went viral after airing.

https://youtu.be/BJP9o4BEziI

I fully believe Jodie could do something great with the right material. She's just stuck with what she has at the minute.

[pigamus]

Everybody raved about Capaldi's speech in that Zygon episode, but I couldn't see it. Thought it was hammy and embarrassing.

[Malcy]

All those big speeches do nothing for me at all. Everyone was banging on about Capaldi's in the Zygon one and I didn't even remember it after watching it.

[Bourgyste]

Capaldi's speech from The Zygon Inversion was great too, and went viral after airing.

That was better than i remembered it.

[VelourSpirit]

I feel like I'm watching each episode just desperately trying to find something I like but I just don't think we're even going to reach the emotional peaks of Moffat's era or even RTD's. I want to not be cynical about it. I feel like I'm appreciating every facet of the Who that's come before even more because I've realised I never actually knew what bland Doctor Who was.

[Replies From View]

Capaldi had a big speech in Into The Dalek towards the end which I quite liked, it wasn't his very best work but it's a decent enough thing.

One of the things I generally loved about Moffat was his ability to create monologues that would somehow build towards an elegant, poetic feeling of some kind.  The "long way round" speech at the end of Day of the Doctor was an example of this but he did tons, and usually (not always) they worked brilliantly.  I can't remember the one at the Into The Dalek, but that's because on the whole Moffat could create these little monologues so effortlessly that you'd start to take them for granted.

[VelourSpirit]

I recommend that Day of the Doctor target novelisation that Steven Moffat did earlier this year. It's one of my favourite Doctor Who things ever written. It adds so much and you end up considering the story, and possibly the whole of Doctor Who, in a completely new light.

[canted_angle_again]

The consensus on here seems to be that we are missing Moffat already?

I'm going to wait until we see what another writer can do with Jodie's Doctor before I write this incarnation of the show off. I mean I can't even say that Jodie is a bad Doctor because aside from a few moments in the first episode she hasn't been given anything 'Doctory' to do. The character seems to be a tool for exposition at the moment, and the show has really started to feel like a kids show over these four episodes rather than a family show. Granted, Moffat may have taken it a bit too far the other way and made it a bit too dark for the kids to enjoy but so far this has just been a solid 5/10 week after week. RTD's and Moffats Who was a roller coaster of quality but there was some real gems in there and you knew you were going to get at least one 'weird' episode each series. We'll never get an episode like Midnight or The Dream Lord under Chinballs and this makes me rather sad.

The only other time I felt so dismayed with the show was Colin Baker. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

With the Ryan's acting/dyspraxia stuff, my bruv has dyspraxia, and it could be coincidence, but Ryan's portrayal really clicks with me. In his teen years, my bruv often seemed to be in his own little world a lot of the time, found it hard to make eye contact for long, seemed pretty emotionless and withdrawn a lot of the time. There's a lot of that still but much less so, he's definitely come out of his shell a bit.

That said, this might just be his personality rather than the dyspraxia, but it would be interesting if the actor had studied various people with the condition and that was generally how they came across.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

All those big speeches do nothing for me at all. Everyone was banging on about Capaldi's in the Zygon one and I didn't even remember it after watching it.

It's one the most powerful speeches from Doctor Who, an impassioned, eloquent anti-war tirade delivered by a great actor firing on all cylinders. It was watched by millions of viewers on a Saturday night, just before Strictly Come Dancing; a genuinely brave, bold and - yes - subversive political statement.

[Bingo Fury]

I actually hated Capaldi's Zygon Inversion speech. It was clearly being set up as the speech to represent the 12th Doctor in future clip shows, but it just rang hollow and empty for me, mainly because the politics of the story were so dubious and the whole premise of the Zygon uprising seemed to have changed between episodes. It's his speech to the Master and Missy in The Doctor Falls that's his highlight for me. It's when he expresses everything he's learnt about himself, both in this incarnation and in every previous incarnation, two thousand years of experience basically boiled down to: "be kind". That's something I can get behind. I guess I belong to a pretty small minority, as no one ever seems to mention that speech.

And as for

"The Doctor is no longer here. You are stuck with me."

Jodie could totally use a moment like that, and soon.

[Bourgyste]

It's his speech to the Master and Missy in The Doctor Falls that's his highlight for me. It's when he expresses everything he's learnt about himself, both in this incarnation and in every previous incarnation, two thousand years of experience basically boiled down to: "be kind". That's something I can get behind. I guess I belong to a pretty small minority, as no one ever seems to mention that speech.

It was good but I recall being too taken with Missy and her acting to fully appreciate anything else.

[pigamus]

I actually hated Capaldi's Zygon Inversion speech. It was clearly being set up as the speech to represent the 12th Doctor in future clip shows, but it just rang hollow and empty for me, mainly because the politics of the story were so dubious and the whole premise of the Zygon uprising seemed to have changed between episodes.

Yep. The speech is so in love with itself it's practically awarding itself its own Oscar. It's hammy, hollow and unconvincing.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I actually hated Capaldi's Zygon Inversion speech. It was clearly being set up as the speech to represent the 12th Doctor in future clip shows, but it just rang hollow and empty for me, mainly because the politics of the story were so dubious and the whole premise of the Zygon uprising seemed to have changed between episodes. It's his speech to the Master and Missy in The Doctor Falls that's his highlight for me. It's when he expresses everything he's learnt about himself, both in this incarnation and in every previous incarnation, two thousand years of experience basically boiled down to: "be kind". That's something I can get behind. I guess I belong to a pretty small minority, as no one ever seems to mention that speech.

I know what you mean about that Zygon speech potentially coming across as self-conscious clip show fodder, but the clearly sincere and bluntly-articulated sentiments behind it coupled with Capaldi's stellar delivery overcame such concerns (for me and many others, anyway).

It came across as a genuine howl of frustration, anger and compassion, delivered slap bang in the middle of a Saturday night family drama. I personally found it quite thrilling.

I agree, however, that Capaldi's more restrained speech in The Doctor Falls is more affecting in terms of encapsulating the Doctor's outlook on life. Without ever feeling too self-conscious or contrived, it's Moffat and Capaldi, at the end of their tenures, saying: "This is ultimately what this show, this character, is all about." It's very touching.

Chibnall is incapable of writing anything like that for Jodie Whittaker, but hopefully one of the other writers will give her the material she deserves. She's a good actor, but she hasn't been given much to work with so far.

[Replies From View]

It's his speech to the Master and Missy in The Doctor Falls that's his highlight for me. It's when he expresses everything he's learnt about himself, both in this incarnation and in every previous incarnation, two thousand years of experience basically boiled down to: "be kind". That's something I can get behind. I guess I belong to a pretty small minority, as no one ever seems to mention that speech.

No, I love it too.

The point is that with Moffat there are so many good speeches we can argue over which ones are best.  I don't believe that will ever happen with Chibnall; I'd love for him to prove me wrong.

[Mango Chimes]

Some of my favourite stuff is when the Doctor gets too powerful and goes all threatening and vindictive and 'angry god'. It's probably most memorable with Tennant because it was such a contrast to his normal demeanour. Can't wait to see Jodie get a go, but it is hard to picture at the moment. The bit where she was a sad and lonely at the beginning of the last episode felt too genuine, too small and human.

Although, it's not a bad thing for the character to surprise every now and again. It's definitely a different take to the last few and it'll take a while to see how it sits.

[Alternative Carpark]

Some of my favourite stuff is when the Doctor gets too powerful and goes all threatening and vindictive and 'angry god'.

Whereas conversely I absolutely despise anything like that - it's got nothing to do with the character as I've ever conceptualised it, and there's nothing remotely interesting or appealing about it - it just makes the character seem like a complete prick.

I don't think that making bombastic and self-aggrandising speeches is something that should be considered a key part of the Doctor, or that any one version is missing something if they didn't do that.  Troughton didn't really do that - his conversation with Victoria cited earlier isn't in that kind of category.  Davison didn't.  McCoy hardly ever did anything like that either - he usually preferred to lead others into that kind of trap.

It's fair comment that Whittaker's Doctor could do with some more charismatic or memorable dialogue - but that doesn't necessarily translate into a need for some would-be big showy "The great I-Am" type speech

[Bourgyste]

It's probably most memorable with Tennant because it was such a contrast to his normal demeanour.

That's exactly why i rate Matt's

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

No, I love it too.

The point is that with Moffat there are so many good speeches we can argue over which ones are best.  I don't believe that will ever happen with Chibnall; I'd love for him to prove me wrong.

Me too, but it's so unlikely. At their best, RTD and Moffat have a poetic turn of phrase, they can involve you in a story and tug at your heartstrings with earned emotion. Chibnall can't do that. Rosa was touching, a rather lovely piece of drama, but I suspect that his major contribution to that episode was Racist Time Fonz. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I want to be wrong.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

The bit where she was a sad and lonely at the beginning of the last episode felt too genuine, too small and human.

Although, it's not a bad thing for the character to surprise every now and again. It's definitely a different take to the last few and it'll take a while to see how it sits.

I liked her performance in that scene. As you say, without any recourse to 'lonely God' dialogue, it depicted the Doctor as a fundamentally vulnerable, lonely person. No grandstanding, just a quiet scene in which an ancient alien struggled to say goodbye to her new friends.

We've been talking about BIG SPEECHES in this thread, but I thought that little moment was quite effective.

[Cloud]

Bit of good news, there's only one more Chibbers episode and then finally he's allowed someone else to have a go.  Only for 4 episodes, then it's back to His Blandness again, but we might see a bit of better-than-average writing in the meantime?

With the Ryan's acting/dyspraxia stuff, my bruv has dyspraxia, and it could be coincidence, but Ryan's portrayal really clicks with me. In his teen years, my bruv often seemed to be in his own little world a lot of the time, found it hard to make eye contact for long, seemed pretty emotionless and withdrawn a lot of the time. There's a lot of that still but much less so, he's definitely come out of his shell a bit.

That said, this might just be his personality rather than the dyspraxia, but it would be interesting if the actor had studied various people with the condition and that was generally how they came across.

Interesting point, good to hear an opinion from someone close to the subject.

As someone who struggles with eye contact and emotional expression myself (undiagnosed Aspergers, I suspect) I'd love to see more representation of people on TV so people understand me better - though TBH I should probably just do a better job of improving those things and don't really put enough effort in.

[Mister Six]

The bit where she was a sad and lonely at the beginning of the last episode felt too genuine, too small and human.

I loved that precisely because it was such a departure from the big scary lonely god take on The Doctor, which I think has become a bit tired. There's nothing wrong with a Doctor showing vulnerability around the companions. I just want her to have more steel when facing down baddies instead of seeming like a slightly narked teacher telling off a student who's a bit bigger than her.

We've been talking about BIG SPEECHES in this thread, but I thought that little moment was quite effective.

Chibnall's episodes have been very good for small moments. To continue being uncharitable towards him, I'm not sure how much of that is him being good at scripting them and how much is him letting Whittaker and Walsh do all the heavy lifting.

[mjwilson]

Aw, shucks. I wasn't fishing for compliments, honestly.

I decided to take a peek at her writing, not realising it was the same person who did that very passionate but slightly odd Rosa review, and saw the opening to the Arachnids in the UK review:

    I am reminded of the way in which late-era Gatiss stories landed with a sense of pleasurable relief.

Then I backed away slowly before turning and running for the hills.

I think, from what I've read of Sandifer's stuff, that statement should be read as "we expected Gatiss to completely fuck it all up but in the end it turned out to be kind of solid in a straightforward uninteresting way", rather than as any amazing endorsement of that one with the Ice Warriors in it.

[canted_angle_again]

I wish we had Gatiss, it may be retrospective but it'd always be weird. Bland is...bland.