Schweinstein 2: Sexual Abuse & Misconduct Allegations In Hollywood. Or Anywhere.

[ieXush2i]

However sordid it may be, he was never in a parentel role with her, he was not a father figure or surrogate father or anything of the kind, all of those roles were taken by Andre Previn.

Well, not according to Woody Allen:

I was paternal. She responded to someone paternal. I liked her youth and energy. She deferred to me, and I was happy to give her an enormous amount of decision-making just as a gift and let her take charge of so many things. She flourished. It was just a good-luck thing.

[biggytitbo]

You can use as many synonyms as you want, he wasn't her guardian/parent/mentor or whatever.

[biggytitbo]

Yawn, now you're talking about their relationship when she was an adult. She didn't begin a relationship with a man who was her surrogate father or had any fathering role in her life. I don't really care how weird their relationship might be now.

[ieXush2i]

You can use as many synonyms as you want, he wasn't her guardian/parent/mentor or whatever.

Allen's own words. What relationship is traditionally paternal?

Of course you don't care, although you are proving you do with your defence of someone who has credible charges of child sexual abuse levied against them. And a predilection for barely-legal teenage girls.

[Dr Rock]

Biggy, ultimately you are going to stick to the argument that maybe Dylan Farrow was brainwashed by Mia Farrow and now has false memories, and that's all you've got in the face of her repeating the allegations as an adult who doesn't seem nuts in any way. You pointed to a case where allegations were made and upon questioning the children quickly admitted they had been coached to say they were part of some satanic abuse at a Hampstead school. Have you got any data that shows a significant number of adults who repeat claims they were abused as a child were brainwashed and have false memories? Or is it as likely as saying 'maybe she's a robot that Mia Farrow built and the real Dylan Farrow was sent into space in a rocket that Mia Farrow built?

[Sin Agog]

Let's hope the real Woody Allen wasn't sent up there with her.

"This is the one thing we didn't want to happen."

[biggytitbo]

I've gone right off Woody Allen in recent years because of this stuff but that don't mean I'm just going to disregard the actual facts, like you're doing, and take one sides account as the only possible truth. Without peeking at what Mias lawyers said, how do you explain the other investigation that cleared Allen?

[Dr Rock]

Without peeking at what Mias lawyers said, how do you explain the other investigation that cleared Allen?

All investigations can come to the wrong conclusion, as if you need telling.

[biggytitbo]

Allen's own words. What relationship is traditionally paternal?

Of course you don't care, although you are proving you do with your defence of someone who has credible charges of child sexual abuse levied against them. And a predilection for barely-legal teenage girls.

Soon Yi was 19, 20 or 21 when the relationship started, same age Mia was when she married the much older Frank Sinatra.

[Dr Rock]

And since that investigation, major new evidence has appeared. An adult Dylan Farrow repeating the allegations.

[ieXush2i]

Soon Yi was 19, 20 or 21 when the relationship started, same age Mia was when she married the much older Frank Sinatra.

Was Ol' Blue Eyes her mother's boyfriend that she'd known for half her life?

[biggytitbo]

Biggy, ultimately you are going to stick to the argument that maybe Dylan Farrow was brainwashed by Mia Farrow and now has false memories, and that's all you've got in the face of her repeating the allegations as an adult who doesn't seem nuts in any way. You pointed to a case where allegations were made and upon questioning the children quickly admitted they had been coached to say they were part of some satanic abuse at a Hampstead school. Have you got any data that shows a significant number of adults who repeat claims they were abused as a child were brainwashed and have false memories? Or is it as likely as saying 'maybe she's a robot that Mia Farrow built and the real Dylan Farrow was sent into space in a rocket that Mia Farrow built?

I'm not sticking with that, I'm sticking with the investigations that said no abuse occurred, what Moses has said and how utterly unbelievable and inconsistent the actual allegations are. I'm not certain, but at the very least it's unclear whether they really occurred, and most of the reporting about it is one sided and inaccurate.

[biggytitbo]

And since that investigation, major new evidence has appeared. An adult Dylan Farrow repeating the allegations.

Yeah including specific details that didn't occur according to older people in the house at the time.

[Dr Rock]

But you have to discount what an adult Dylan Farrow says, on the basis that possibly she was brainwashed and has false memories. Or she's telling the truth whatever investigations may have concluded in the past. Again, do you have any data on the number of adults who claim sexual abuse happened to them turning out to be false memories?

[Endicott]

Surely making references to how many times this might have happened in the past has no bearing on any specific case, which has to be judged on facts alone.

Just saying, I don't have a side in the WA debate. Also I think both 'sides' here have done that over the last 40 pages or so.

[Dr Rock]

Surely making references to how many times this might have happened in the past has no bearing on any specific case, which has to be judged on facts alone.

I think it's useful to try and establish the chances of 'Dylan Farrow is telling the truth' compared with 'adults make false sexual abuse accusations based on false memories.' As nobody apart from Dylan Farrow and Woody Allen can know the truth, nobody can be 100% certain, so the likelihood of either has partly informed by decision to believe Dylan Farrow.

[Endicott]

Is there not a case for saying that Woody Allen is a sick fuck, Mia Farrow is fucking mental, and they have both damaged their children (and step-children) in such a hugely profound way that there can never be a reliable account of what took place, and that's a massive unforgiveable tragedy for them* (and their hopes of processing what has transpired), regardless of whose side your on?

*The children

[Dr Rock]

What's the evidence that Mia Farrow has damaged any of her children again?

[Sin Agog]

/

[kngen]

What's the evidence that Mia Farrow has damaged any of her children again?

Well, Moses Farrow seems pretty withering about his and his siblings' upbringing (but, then again, he's Team Woody, so I guess that might undermine his testimony) - but even the Vanity Fair hagiographies betray a certain control freakery and Joan of Arc complex that doesn't sound at all healthy - I mean, FOURTEEN fucking kids, FFS.

[biggytitbo]

But you have to discount what an adult Dylan Farrow says, on the basis that possibly she was brainwashed and has false memories. Or she's telling the truth whatever investigations may have concluded in the past. Again, do you have any data on the number of adults who claim sexual abuse happened to them turning out to be false memories?

There are examples of false memories - there's a whole foundation which randi is involved in right? And the satanic panic etc. Turn it the other way round, how common is it for a middle aged man to chose his one and only time to do a  child rape during a bitter custody battle, in his angry ex partners house, when its full of people and everyone is on edge? The timing makes it sound like a revenge rape or something, how common is that?

[biggytitbo]

Well, Moses Farrow seems pretty withering about his and his sibling's upbringing (but, then again, he's Team Woody, so I guess that might undermine his testimony) - but even the Vanity Fair hagiographies betray a certain control freakery and Joan of Arc complex that doesn't sound at all healthy - I mean, FOURTEEN fucking kids, FFS.

There's some crazy stuff in the recent book where moses recounts the abuse, like when he customised his new jeans and she went mental, stripped him and made him spend the rest of the day naked in the corner because he 'didn't deserve clothes' . And these are millionaires were talking about.

[Dr Rock]

There's some crazy stuff in the recent book where moses recounts the abuse, like when he customised his new jeans and she went mental, stripped him and made him spend the rest of the day naked in the corner because he 'didn't deserve clothes' . And these are millionaires were talking about.

Maybe it's a false memory.

[Buelligan]

My view, not specifically about the Allen situation but generally about abuse is that, rather like business or politics, a great many people seem to hang on to provable criminality as their only guide. 

We ask when someone will be rehabilitated, why someone should be a focus for opprobrium if they haven't broken any laws.  It's a bit like these captains of industry who consult their lawyers thoroughly as they raid the pension fund - it really isn't all about the law (I know I've mentioned this before).  And people who behave as if it is shouldn't get away with it (unless we want to live under their pitiless exploitative rule). 

Human relationships - if based and guided entirely or even, mainly, on fulfillment of the law are devoid of meaning and morality - these are relationships for psychopaths - this is not how to run a fucking cocktail party or, for that matter, a humane society. 

[Sin Agog]

Maybe it's a false memory.

If you look at the stats, the majority of accounts of sexual abuse at a young age are actually ways for the brain to deal with alien abduction.

[biggytitbo]

Maybe it's a false memory.

Maybe this is a false memory?

[Buelligan]

There's some crazy stuff in the recent book where moses recounts the abuse, like when he customised his new jeans and she went mental, stripped him and made him spend the rest of the day naked in the corner because he 'didn't deserve clothes' . And these are millionaires were talking about.

Moses is Nagsworth and I claim my £5. 

Seriously though, this could be a false memory.

[kngen]

Seriously though, this could be a false memory.

Farrow admitted that she beat Soon-Yi and cut up her clothes when she found out about the affair with Allen. Not saying I don't blame her, but patterns of abuse and all that ...

[Paul Calf]

We ask when someone will be rehabilitated, why someone should be a focus for opprobrium if they haven't broken any laws.  It's a bit like these captains of industry who consult their lawyers thoroughly as they raid the pension fund - it really isn't all about the law (I know I've mentioned this before).  And people who behave as if it is shouldn't get away with it (unless we want to live under their pitiless exploitative rule). 

David Cameron said something similar.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-is-too-tolerant-and-should-interfere-more-in-peoples-lives-says-david-cameron-10246517.html

At the National Security Council today Mr Cameron unveiled a series of measures that he said would crack down on people holding minority "extremist" views that differed from Britain's consensus.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'," he said.

The question I would ask is this: if you allow that people should use their own morality as their guide, separate from the law, at what point do you accept that they've examined their conscience and genuinely come to the conclusion that what they're doing is correct? And what if someone decides that the law is wrong and that their own conscience should override it? is that OK? Is it still OK if you disagree with their conclusions?

Your approach seems to rest on the idea that once someone has pondered their actions, that they'll eventually come to a conclusion that you find acceptable.

[thecuriousorange]

Soon Yi was 19, 20 or 21 when the relationship started, same age Mia was when she married the much older Frank Sinatra.

So who is the real sick man in this so-called society?